474 replies to this topic

[Charons Little Helper]

Well - Tesunie - if you're changing his build that much - I'd reccomend this - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...47ac6c4a6e56370

Lose the 2 large lasers for 3 mediums. Gives you the tonnage for an extra two LRM 5s while keeping the standard engine. You pretty much only use the mediums when within 180 m - using the larges too much beyond there along with the LRMs might end up giving you heat issues anyway.

The 3 mediums will be essentially the same firepower at short range (slightly less damage and slightly less cooldown) - and at long range the extra LRMs should more than cancel the lack of the larges.

The LRM 50 it gives you will actually be - in effect - more than 25% more damage than the current LRM 40. The extra 10 missiles will all hit the center torso. If they have no AMS - you can take advantage of their faster cooldown. When firing to keep heads down - (and you have virtually no chance of hitting) you can just fire a single LRM 5. They still get the LRM warning while you only use up 5 ammo - not 50.

I've even used an LRM past 1000 meters before - they still get the warning. Can be quite amusing to see someone duck for cover at 2000 meters. Especially works if they've already seen how big your missile cloud can be.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 09 January 2014 - 02:46 PM.

[Tesunie]

Charons Little Helper, on 09 January 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Well - Tesunie - if you're changing his build that much - I'd reccomend this - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...47ac6c4a6e56370

I could see this as a very good alternative. Each has their own little advantages. I'd personally still go with 2 large instead of 3 med, as I think the larges will make for a better defense/offense. But you make a very valid point about the extra LRMs, as well as "resisting temptation" and being a natural preventative to overheating. Each weapon for it's own range.

If the mech had more energy ports, I'd go with more med lasers, but being limited to only 4, one being taken by TAG, leaves things a little tight. (I actually managed to fit 3 LLs in, but I decided that it wasn't a good idea.)

I like the way you think with those LRM5s... Very crafty...

[Kaijin]

NRP, on 09 January 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Please critique:

STK-3H

Tesunie and I are of one mind concerning Stalkers and XL engines. No mech at present has as huge a target as is presented in a Stalker's side torsos, and for an LRM Stalker in particular, which must keep it's nose pointed more or less at the target while the missiles fly in, they'll be particularly vulnerable. For this reason, a standard engine is also advantageous in that you don't need to throw so much armor on the rear side torsos, and can put more up front where it'll be very useful (the arm bone's connected to the torso bone).

My variation, (though in keeping with your general design) uses an entirely different Stalker, which loses 5 missiles in favor of the more CT- focused LRM10s and LRM5s. Another advantage is you can spam with this build if there isn't any AMS to worry about. And lastly, because it's got a standard engine and an energy hardpoint in the CT, your opponents will have to core you if they want you to stop shooting at them, relieving you somewhat of the indignity from roaming around the map with all your weapons shot off.

STK-5M

edit: I know the heat profile doesn't look so great on this, but using the heat simulator linked below, I was able to fire 17 LRM alphas one after the other (1min 15 seconds worth) before reaching 80% on the heat scale. It'd be a rare occasion that you'd be firing both the LLs and the LRMs at once.
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

Edited by Kaijin, 09 January 2014 - 03:35 PM.

[NRP]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

Yeah, the only way to fit 2 ALRM5s is to replace the ERLLs with MLs. For solo PUGing, I really like the ERLLs but I guess I should try it both ways.

Regarding the XL engine, I agree in principle but this Stalker isn't a brawler. It's a long range support mech, so the XL isn't too much of a concern for me.

[Tesunie]

Kaijin, on 09 January 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

STK-5M

I could see this as a very viable alternative as well, and if it runs too hot, you can always shrink the engine a little for a sink or two. However, from my observances with Stalkers and their arms, I might suggest placing the ammo in the arms instead of the legs?

Just a concept: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...909ba9acb52588e (Is basically the same thing, just with all ammo shifted to the arms.)

I'm not too much of a fan of just a med laser in the CT, so I might suggest a Large Laser in the CT instead. A little more threatening to anyone who sides your weapons off and expect you to be easy and docile... and you retain range so if you can, you could keep your distance and maybe still survive with nothing but a CT. (Can't recall how many games I'm half a Stalker and still killing things.) Leaves a couple more options for you to work with near your end life...

(The devils in the details sometimes...)

[Tesunie]

NRP, on 09 January 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Regarding the XL engine, I agree in principle but this Stalker isn't a brawler. It's a long range support mech, so the XL isn't too much of a concern for me.

I can understand this point of view, but recall that LRMs attract light mechs. You are also a large and slow target on the field. Brawling might not be your intent, but it's probably going to happen to you, like it or not. But, if you are skilled in the art of deflecting and placing damage, it might not be too much of a problem.

(Be careful, people like me see Stalkers with XL engines as yummy snacks when in our faster mechs... )

[Kaijin]

Tesunie, on 09 January 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

I could see this as a very viable alternative as well, and if it runs too hot, you can always shrink the engine a little for a sink or two. However, from my observances with Stalkers and their arms, I might suggest placing the ammo in the arms instead of the legs?

Just a concept: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...909ba9acb52588e (Is basically the same thing, just with all ammo shifted to the arms.)

I'm not too much of a fan of just a med laser in the CT, so I might suggest a Large Laser in the CT instead.

I was trying to stay close to NRP's design of having the large lasers in the arms with that build. I prefer Cats and Kintaros for LRM mechs, but when I get a wild hair to turn the Kaijin STK-5M into an LRM platform, I go with this:

Kaijin LRM Stalker

I've never had a leg shot off my Stalkers, or even critted.

Edited by Kaijin, 09 January 2014 - 04:18 PM.

[Tesunie]

Kaijin, on 09 January 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

I was trying to stay close to NRP's design of having the large lasers in the arms with that build. The LRM Stalker I drive is completely different.

Kaijin LRM Stalker

I've never had a leg shot off my Stalkers, or even critted.

And I do mine different. Here's my old loadout: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1bc80c0565b3512





Oops. Here's my real Stalker build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...05ba258deb22659
It's old and been around from as soon as the Stalker was released. Back when I thought DHS did 1.4 cooling instead of 2.0 in the engine and 1.4 outside the engine.
If I was to update this by removing Endo and adding in DHS, this is how it would most likely look now: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b043ad3f3225821

We each do things differently, and each follow a different role on the field of combat. Nothing wrong with that.
PS: I still like my SHS Stalker, as I like having the ammo in the arms and not in the legs a little better. But, I haven't got the C-bills to upgrade it yet, so it remains in the SHS version still. For now.
Edit: Debating on two LRM10s with Artemis instead, but not sure yet. Good thing I don't have the C-bills anyway...

Edited by Tesunie, 09 January 2014 - 04:23 PM.

[NRP]

IMO, the 5M is the quintessential LL Stalker. To run any other build (even with ghost heat) seems . . . like a waste of potential.

STK-5M

[Victor Morson]

Kaijin, on 09 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

I very rarely ever get hit with LRMs, so I can't say much to this argument. Certainly a fast medium will be packing LRM5s or a mix of LRM5s and LRM10s, so their RoF would be higher than my C1's, but my damage per volley would be higher. One on one, the skirmisher would likely win vs the C1, being far better at adjusting position rapidly. OTOH, one on one, a Jenner will beat one of your skirmishers, whereas it's not a certainly it'd beat my C1.

While I see what you're saying, it doesn't quite work that way largely because the fast mover can evade most missiles while the C1 gets hit by most; DPS and damage per volley don't matter in this kind of fight that much, or at least not as much as grouping & accuracy. That's why the medium beats the heavy in this scenario every time.

It's not uncommon for me to fight an Awesome LRM boat in a Shadow Hawk LRM boat, and walk out with a dead Awesome and barely a scratch. Par for the course; and at least if that Jenner does come for me, I'll have the speed to get to help.

As another small note, a good Jenner pilot will be able to take a 3 ML C1 down like you might as well not have any weapons, honestly. You'll be turning slow and flailing less firepower than the Jenner has and never keep up. It's just not enough firepower to seriously ward off a determined anti-heavy light.

Even if by some miracle you win this fight, you've turned your 30 some tons of weapons & ammo in to the unused pile in favor of the same firepower that appears on bad Spider builds, so you might as well have lost by the time it's over.

EDIT: I think I'd get behind ML backups on a proper missile 60 tonner, if they ever make one. The Quickdraw's ports are horrendous even by SRM standards, it's horrible at LRMs.

Edited by Victor Morson, 09 January 2014 - 05:45 PM.

[Kaijin]

Victor Morson, on 09 January 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

A good Jenner pilot will be able to take a 3 ML C1 down like you might as well not have any weapons, honestly. You'll be turning slow and flailing less firepower than the Jenner has and never keep up. It's just not enough firepower to seriously ward off a determined anti-heavy light.

A good Jenner pilot can take anything down. I drive them too - I know what Jenners can do. You're wrong about the turn speed though. I have a jump jet on that C1. As also stated, I'm never far from the rest of my team either, so unless my entire team is clueless, my 3 ML aren't all the determined anti-heavy light must contend with. Most of the lights I face aren't determined anti-heavy lights, and very quickly tire of getting shot at while they try unsuccessfully to get behind me. Determined anti-heavy lights I face are not that much more determined either, and at least for a time prefer to hunt for easier pickings.

Edited by Kaijin, 09 January 2014 - 07:00 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Well, I broke 2 with my build today.
Thou shalt take an Adv. Target Decay Module
Thou shalt always stay over 88kph

Despite that, this Hunchback-4J is doing well, far better than I thought using Advanced Sensor and Target Info Gathering.

[1453 R]

I have something of a question, as well as a bit of a challenge actually. Given that Victor and I are apparently the only people in this entire thread who figure that LRM Stalkers are a horrible idea.

As one may be able to note by looking a bit to their left, I currently have access to the Battlemaster chassis, among which is the BLR-1S. I have the engine/C-bills to run the following (somewhat familiar) build on it if I decide this is what it's for:

Battlemaster BLR-1S: "Bring the Thunder"

On the other hand, I also have my trusty TBT-5N missile platform, as noted below:

Trebuchet TBT-5N: "Release Lever"

My question is this: what does the Battlemaster do that the Trebuchet doesn't?

Seriously. No, seriously, think about it!

The Battlemaster carries forty missile tubes instead of 30, which is a nominal 25% increase in LRM firepower. These additional tubes are highly accurate LRM-5 launchers, good for chainfire and reconnaissance, and do add significant LRM value to the 'Mech. It also carries an additional medium laser, two additional tons of LRM ammunition, and a Beagle Active probe I couldn't find room for in the Treb. It also carries roughly two-thirds again the armor of the Treb.

This sounds like a whole lot of stuff, and to be honest I'm very tempted to run my BLR-1S this way. Given the current state of the game, I think it may well be the best BLR-1S build you can run, or at least very close to it. It's also far and away the best assault-class LRM platform I can come up with at the moment. So. What does the Trebuchet do that this Battlemaster doesn't?

It moves ten klicks an hour faster when Tweak gets done (more important than it sounds, trust me), and is far more agile. The Trebuchet is entire worlds better at repositioning itself on the battlefield, even when not optimized for maximum speed. It also weighs an entire Jenner less than the Battlemaster does, and one day fairly soon(ish) here, that will be a factor of critical importance. It's a less high-priority target - nobody shoots at Trebuchets unless the Treb pilot is dumb enough to be the only thing available to shoot. The backup lasers are, frankly, a wash - two lasers or three makes no difference whatsoever and is mostly only something to help fish for component destructions and give the pilot something else to do anyways.

Tell me - is being a larger, slower, higher-priority target really the only way to Lurm? Is it really so hard to believe that my Trebuchet couldn't leverage the fact that it has three quarters of the firepower of something approaching double its own weight, while moving significantly faster and more nimbly than the something in question, to score just as many kills as Lurm-riddled Stalkers vomiting seventy-warhead diarrhea showers over everything in sight? That maybe the heavily focused, highly mobile firepower of a Lurmisher really is better than "Make it RAAAIIIIN" nonsense?

Which of the two 'Mechs I've shown you would you pilot, and why? Which of them should I pilot? Heh...tell me what you think. Dead serious - I'm completely baffled by some of the things I've seen in this thread. I want to know.

[Alaskan Nobody]

1453 R, on 09 January 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

Given that Victor and I are apparently the only people in this entire thread who figure that LRM Stalkers are a horrible idea.
............................
Which of the two 'Mechs I've shown you would you pilot, and why? Which of them should I pilot? Heh...tell me what you think. Dead serious - I'm completely baffled by some of the things I've seen in this thread. I want to know.

Stalkers being poor missile boats (or rather poor in general) is something I can agree with Victor on (The ATLAS can be just as maneuverable for assaults sake!)

As for which... I dunno - they both look fun

[Hex Pallett]

Two things I don't necessarily agree.

1) Artemis. If you're carrying, like, three or four mid-to-large LRM launchers, you might as well just save those weight for more ammo. Instead of trying to be shoot accurately, you might as well just overwhelm the enemy with sheer amount of firepower.

2) Speed. I thought my rule of 70+ km/h was strict enough. If you have enough armor - and firepower - and knows how to find a clear view, a 70 km/h speed is quite enough.

My only two "true" LRM boat are set up very differently. My Battlemaster 1S has four LRM10 launchers supplied with 9 tons of ammo. I play it more passively with a supportive role, mostly for bombarding enemy frontliners, essentially debuffing their combat capability by spamming their "WARNING: INCOMING MISSILES" and shaking their views. It has plenty of armor, which makes its 73.4 km/h speed more than enough, and it doesn't have Artemis.

My other LRM boat, my 'pult C1, has Artemis equipped, because it's faster, and I play it far more aggressively. I tend to push it to about 200-400m away from enemies. It also has only 5 tons of ammo, which makes precise shooting a lot more important.

The other commandments I totally agree.

Edited by Helmstif, 09 January 2014 - 08:31 PM.

[Quinton]

I feel one of the commandments really should be : Thous shalt always carry a secondary weapon.

I run a light mech quite often and one of the first things i do in nearly every battle is locate the missile boat, wait for it to seperate itself from the pack, and run it down. I've killed literally dozens of catapults, jaegers, awesomes, etc that ran LRM's only and no SRM's or even 1 streak launcher. Usually they end up desperately trying to run back to their team, or stuck in a corner staring at me while i chew them apart.

[Quinton]

Charons Little Helper, on 09 January 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

I've even used an LRM past 1000 meters before - they still get the warning. Can be quite amusing to see someone duck for cover at 2000 meters. Especially works if they've already seen how big your missile cloud can be.

I run a locust with a pair of LRMx5. Best match i've had in it is when i pinned down half of an enemy team simply by locking and firing 5 missiles at them whenever they stepped out of cover. Everyone's first reaction is to duck and cover, more often than not people do not spend the time to look at what is actually coming at them. I very rarely kill anyone, or do a lot of damage, but in that little mech I can make atlases cower in fear.

[Orbit Rain]

Kaijin, on 08 January 2014 - 11:13 PM, said:

For rank beginners though, faster is better. A beginner I am not:

This had me wondering about my stats:



The LRM20 is further up on the page, and I'm gonna be lazy about stitching it in. I haven't read this entire thread (tl:dr). I will say that this is a good guide, but as there are multiple games within this game (solo-pug, 4-man and 12-man), there are more ways than these commandments lay out, to play something with an LRM launcher on it.

[Victor Morson]

1453 R, on 09 January 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

Trebuchet TBT-5N: "Release Lever"

My question is this: what does the Battlemaster do that the Trebuchet doesn't?

I really have to say that dumping the two medlas in the arm, then dumping the arm armor that they are using would allow you to upgrade your leg armor (which is vital given there's ammo in those legs!) to maximum and fit two more tons of ammo, since you can easily burn 960 tons without question.

Again I know people like backup weapons but 3 medium lasers on a Treb has never really turned the tides, but way more armor on vital areas and more ammo sure has. Just something to consider.

Kaijin, on 09 January 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

A good Jenner pilot can take anything down. I drive them too - I know what Jenners can do. You're wrong about the turn speed though. I have a jump jet on that C1. As also stated, I'm never far from the rest of my team either, so unless my entire team is clueless, my 3 ML aren't all the determined anti-heavy light must contend with.

But ultimately it's so light, they won't be contended with at all - mostly ignored. Thus I still hold it's better to have that 3 extra tons of ammo.

Edited by Victor Morson, 10 January 2014 - 01:40 AM.

[Kaijin]

1453 R, on 09 January 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

Given that Victor and I are apparently the only people in this entire thread who figure that LRM Stalkers are a horrible idea.

In general, I figure LRMs, in their present nerfed state, on any of the assault mechs we have at our disposal is a bad idea. They can boat them -sure, but the assaults we have are better suited as energy and/or ballistic platforms, or SRMs, if they ever get fixed so they work.

Being the most heavily armored, assaults are the 'tanks' in the team. But all that armor is going to waste if they're sitting at the back lobbing missiles, while their less armored teammates are getting chewed up at the front by proper assault mechs.

With the way LRMs are now in MWO, medium mechs are best suited to carry them. From the screens I posted, I do as well with my KTO-18 as I do with my CAT-C1(F). I feel a little guilty giving the other team a 'Phract or a Jag every time I drop in the Cat, but it's my money-maker.