474 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Rascula, on 10 December 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Firstly the 8R is very good at what it does, theres probably better but 'Horribly Outclassed' is a bit much.

It's beaten into the ground in it's weight class by the Battlemaster.

Rascula, on 10 December 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Secondly Why would anyone fire 50 - 60 missiles in one go.. thats a huge risk of loosing lock/line of sight and wasting a metric ton of ammo..

To overwhelm AMS and offer the maximum damage per salvo.

Rascula, on 10 December 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

This implies youve only just completed grinding an LRM mech <Any experienced pilot would already have that module for sure.. If thats the case whilst your opinions are appreciated it hardly qualifies you to be an experienced LRM pilot..

I've had Adv. Target Decay since the first week after beta reset. Soo......

[Tesunie]

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Stop posting PUG screenshots to prove anything.



All is well and good with those roles, if you have the missiles and setup to bring the pain once you finally line up a shot. Indirect fire is that thing you do while you are positioning for direct fire, period.

Again any weapon this heavy and consuming needs to be able to kill things or it's not worth the weight. We're not talking a 2 ton support gun here.



If you aren't dedicating enough resources to your LRMs to make them your primary firepower, you might as well not take them.

This will obviously be different in the Clan meta, where an LRM/20 only weighs 6 tons. A pair of backup LRMs then would be more than acceptable. But when you are paying what we are in tonnage & crit space, you simply cannot half-measure them.

Note: That "screen shot" was not a screenshot of a single "end match score", but the overall scores for all my mechs on an average... Your link is pointless and distracting from the topic you brought up that I was responding to.


So, now you "agree" that LRMs can be used in a good support role. And yes, I bring enough other weapons to make it also worth while to go into direct fire, as well as indirect fire. It's called making a balanced build. A balanced build makes it so one can engage at multiple ranges, so they are never useless at any given range or map. You wont hear me complaining about how large Alpine is, nor about how small River City is either. My mech can work on many different situations with equal efficiency. Though this also means I will not be able to out preform a niche mech in it's given strength either, but does permit me to try and engage a niche mech outside it's strengths and do better at it.


You can do well enough and not have LRMs as a primary weapon system. You can easily split a mech's combat role effectiveness between LRMs and other direct fire weapons. It just means that, against an LRM boat, you had best hide and try to close in, or against a close range brawler, you should try to keep a distance and use the LRMs against them.

With the Clan meta, we shall have to wait till it comes out before one can say otherwise. However, you seem to forget that there are other strategies one can do in a match besides straight up killing and damaging. One can play the role of decoy or distraction as one example. Or, as my LRM mechs tend to do, confuse people into thinking I'm an LRM boat from the number of LRMs I shoot off (which is significant, but not boated) and fool them into charging at me with "everything they have" only to be greated warmly with my defensive weapons array, and have them run or die from an "easy LRM boat target". My designs can also often play guard to an LRM boat or other LRM mechs. My mixed build gives me strengths niche boated mechs might not have.

[Victor Morson]

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Note: That "screen shot" was not a screenshot of a single "end match score", but the overall scores for all my mechs on an average... Your link is pointless and distracting from the topic you brought up that I was responding to.

It doesn't matter, it's just a sum total of pug rounds. Same thing.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

So, now you "agree" that LRMs can be used in a good support role.

I agree that if you have a locked indirect target and are not in a position to get a clear LOS, you can go ahead and fire. But you should be moving to GET LOS, and treating this as some bonus damage, not serious damage.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

And yes, I bring enough other weapons to make it also worth while to go into direct fire, as well as indirect fire. It's called making a balanced build.

Balance Builds < Optimized Builds every time. This goes for non-LRMs as well.

Notably my dedicated LRM mech would be far better at indirect AND direct.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

You can easily split a mech's combat role

This is pretty much untrue even outside of LRMs. There are some builds that are light enough you can afford backup weapons but this is not it.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

One can play the role of decoy or distraction as one example.

Which would you rather see join your team?

A guy bringing a 'mech playing a role to kill things?
Or a guy planning on being a "decoy or distraction?"

.... leave the distractions to the light 'mech pilots man.

[Nick Makiaveli]

I have a quick question that may already been addressed. BAP only works out to 180 meters, correct? LRMS are useless under 100 meters, correct? So the window is tiny if they are closing, could be useful if they are trying to run away.

So is this really worthy of a Must Have item? Granted it's useful, and my most popular mechs have their own, with a couple spares I bounce around (I'm a cheap ******* ), but I don't really see it being as useful as implied.

Also, I've always understood that AMS only takes off about 5 missiles on a good day, so two LRM5s would still have an impact, assuming there is only one AMS at play. Give that not everyone takes AMS, and that you can always find another target or coordinate with another LRMboat, I also don't see this as a big deal. (Plus what Shar said about multiple mechs with LRM5s. Very underestimated tactic.)

[Tesunie]

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Not importaint, overly opinionated, poorly quoted post.

You way is not the only way. Your opinions are not the only ones. There are other ways to use things other than what you have dictated. Your advise is good, but very narrow minded. It is but one way to use these weapon systems, and you are over balanced in that one direction to the exclusion of all others.

No mater what I say to this, it will be deemed as wrong to you anyway. However, a couple of points I still wanted to touch on, as quoted below.

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

This build is God awful.

The LRMs aren't strong enough to do serious damage, the MGs are weak, the engine is slow and it isn't even properly set for LRMs. This is among the very worst LRM lights I've seen, and that whole category is bad.

Rapid fire kill stealing is the only reason for that. That setup is horrendous at any level. It really is.

You have such a narrow mind set. You don't even know it's specifications yet, and it's "slow"? LRMs don't do serious enough damage? MGs weak? Individually, maybe... but combined? It's a rather strong weapon combination when used in the right situations. This is not a mech to charge in and kill. It is a carrion eater. It is designed to feed on the weak and dieing. To take any and all advantages of a damaged section of a mech. To use it's speed to avoid combat when it isn't adventitious to fight yet, and fast enough to still charge in when the time is right.

It's armaments, not that you seem to care, is as follows:
LRM15 w/Artemis 2 tons ammo
2 MGs w/1 ton ammo
2 Med Lasers
XL 245
10 DHS
Endo
FF

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Here's my problem: You are on here trying to argue these points and give advice (even having a thread for advice on LRMs) without even being a frequent TAG, BAP or Artemis user.

This is literally a case of "You don't know what you're talking about."

ED: Got sick of the quote system capping out at 10, and trying to merge posts so you can't quote past that even then. Sorry for the formatting.



Hopefully new players can make up their mind reading these debates.
I'll admit it's frustrating to offer new players advice on how to properly use a gun only to have people steadily countering with horrendous advice.

I have used BAP, Artemis, and TAG. I just don't use them often at the moment. Maybe they changed something, but when I last used them, I wasn't impressed with TAG overall. BAP was more often a waste for my LRMs than anything else (compared to weapons to fight the ECM mech), and Artemis is something I do use when I have mechs that can use a few large launchers over a lot of small launchers, if I have the tonnage and crit spaces for it.

This is a case of "you are too stubborn to see other points of view other than your own".

As for the "quote" system, I only used as many quotes as you did...

Hopefully new players can be smart enough to explore the game and try everything out for themselves and not listen purely to any one person's guide. Guides are great, but not nearly as good as real experience gained inside the game.

Rascula, on 10 December 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

This implies youve only just completed grinding an LRM mech <Any experienced pilot would already have that module for sure.. If thats the case whilst your opinions are appreciated it hardly qualifies you to be an experienced LRM pilot..

I'm sure he ment this as "I used the GXP to finished mastering/eliting a mech I didn't want to work on and finished with MXP (Mech XP)."

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

It doesn't matter, it's just a sum total of pug rounds. Same thing.



I agree that if you have a locked indirect target and are not in a position to get a clear LOS, you can go ahead and fire. But you should be moving to GET LOS, and treating this as some bonus damage, not serious damage.



Balance Builds < Optimized Builds every time. This goes for non-LRMs as well.

Notably my dedicated LRM mech would be far better at indirect AND direct.



This is pretty much untrue even outside of LRMs. There are some builds that are light enough you can afford backup weapons but this is not it.



Which would you rather see join your team?

A guy bringing a 'mech playing a role to kill things?
Or a guy planning on being a "decoy or distraction?"

.... leave the distractions to the light 'mech pilots man.

That link still didn't cover what I posted, as that link talks about selectively pulling certain "end match scores" to "make a mech/build/player look better". I presented my average scores for all my mechs, which is a completely different thing. After all, isn't stats something we use as a tool to help determine efficiency? Different thing, unless you are saying that I don't count as a player, and only you, your stats, and your experience counts? If that's the case, that's rather selfish of you, isn't it?

If you want damage for LoS, let me just say LRMs are not the way. Every single weapon group besides missiles of any kind are much better at direct fire situations. A Gauss, AC, PPC, and laser all have better damage to weight to travel time over missiles, and not just LRMs. They do concentrated damage, unlike LRMs (or any missile) no mater how much "tightening gear" you take. LRMs will ALWAYS splash a little damage (as well as lasers most times).

The largest advantage and strength of LRMs is it's indirect fire capabilities. I'm not saying that you can't fire them directly (as they are more accurate that way most of the time), but they really shine in their indirect support abilities, which no other weapon can perform. If you are always using LRMs as a direct fire weapon, "you are using them wrong"... especially if they are as heavy, hot, and ammo hungry as you say.

You don't have to drown a mech in LRMs for it to be effective. That's all I was trying to point out (seen as I laugh at all LRM boat builds. Reminds me of my Stalker on Stalker action, where the enemy Stalker was all LRMs... Needless to say I slowly closed the distance and flayed my opponent with 6 med lasers...).

I'd rather see someone who can defend themselves than become food to anyone that happens to get close...

And my point about the distractions was a generalized tactic in the game, not anything specifically related to LRMs. I'm saying that there are many tactics in the game possible that doesn't involve only damage. Such as being a distraction, a scout, using LRMs as a support suppression fire, etc.

PS: TAG does help Artemis, but not all of TAGs advantages are applied to LRMs with Artemis. I'm sure there are a few threads that go more in depth with this than I am currently sure of saying, as I am not willing to say something as fact when I am not completely certain myself right now. All I do know is TAG is very minorly benifital to units with Artemis, beside to punch through ECM.

[Nathan Bloodguard]

Ok, you are both acting childish!

For starters, I would also disagree with the opening post, as most of the stuff there is not correct in my opinion. Boating LRMs is a sure way ti get oneself killed by an oportunistisc light or medium mech. Having medium lasers to at least sweep the legs of lights, or if you are good enough, aim for a side torso is much better then lrms only builds.

HOWEVER! It is still a viable opinion to boat LRMs. Both opinions (Victor Morson's AND Tesunie's) are viable. Instead of ranting at each other, why don't the original poster just simply edit the first post to include a link to Tesunie's thread, stating that although he disagrees with the thread, it is additional information on the subject of LRM usage, and Tesunie do the same. Please notice that the thread is in the new player section, so more info and opinions are better then the more experienced players beating each other over the head with sticks!

As a side note, unless something changed, Tag and Atrimis doesn't make the grouping any tighter. All that the tag, when combined with artimis,would do is allow target locking to ecm shrouded mechs. BAP is a great idea, but if the ecm mech is smart would just pull out of the 180m or so bubble and keep the LRM boat from shooting with locks.

Now don't be surprised if i post one more time, as there was something else I was going to state, but can't recall it...

Edit; Recalled what it was.

Those who think "outside the box" tend to be the ones to win, as they come at a different angel then what people would expect.

Edited by Nathan Bloodguard, 10 December 2013 - 05:17 PM.

[Tesunie]

Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

I have a quick question that may already been addressed. BAP only works out to 180 meters, correct? LRMS are useless under 100 meters, correct? So the window is tiny if they are closing, could be useful if they are trying to run away. So is this really worthy of a Must Have item? Granted it's useful, and my most popular mechs have their own, with a couple spares I bounce around (I'm a cheap ******* ), but I don't really see it being as useful as implied. Also, I've always understood that AMS only takes off about 5 missiles on a good day, so two LRM5s would still have an impact, assuming there is only one AMS at play. Give that not everyone takes AMS, and that you can always find another target or coordinate with another LRMboat, I also don't see this as a big deal. (Plus what Shar said about multiple mechs with LRM5s. Very underestimated tactic.)

BAP is only really good for LRMs in the sense that an ECM mech can nip at your ankles but you'd still be able to fire your LRMs at farther targets away. However, ECM mech is still going to kill you if you brought only LRMs to the fight...

Does that answer the question?

[OneEyed Jack]

Ngamok, on 10 December 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

I also use the Advanced Sensor Range Module on my LRM boats as well. It helps with BAPs range which is 150m.

It does not help with BAP range. ECM shortens the ability to lock a mech to 200m, and completely shots of targeting within it's bubble of 180m. BAP negates the ECM within 150m.

So normally, a mech under ECM can only be locked in the narrow band between 181m an 200m (out off bubble, within sensor range). Assuming you're the one carrying the BAP, if the mech carrying the ECM comes within 150m, it's disabled and anyone can target it. For you this means you can target the ECM mech up to 150m, cannot target it from 151-180m, then can target it again from 181m-200m, at which time you lose lock again.

Sensor Range Module increases the range of normal sensors by 15 or 25%. It has no effect on the 150m range of BAP or the 180m ECM bubble. What it does is increase that 200m number. So, with Adv. Sensor Range you cannot target an ECM mech within 180m, but can target from 181-250m (outside bubble, within sensor range). With ASR and BAP, you can target and ECM mech anywhere within 250m except that band from 151-180m (outside BAP range, still under the bubble) assuming it's the only ECM affecting it.

Burke IV, on 10 December 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

a single 15 with artymis will still tickle a jester even with the ams.

I have a question about the 180m range. Does this count when you fire the missiles or is it how far the missiles travel. I beleive its how far the missiles travel, this means a clever pilot can fire as close as 150m if both mechs are moving in the right way.

Range traveled. If you fire on a mech that's at or near minimum range and getting closer to the point of launch, it will likely not do damage. If it gets closer to you, but not tot he point of launch, such as you moving toward the target, you're fine. Likewise, if you shoot at target near maximum range, they may be able to move outside the range and be perfectly safe before the missile get there, even if you move forward and the your range indicator still says they are in range.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I disagree with... just about every point in the original post of this thread. None of this is "needed" to run LRMs. It all depends upon what you have your LRMs on your mech for, and how you use them.

Every rule has exceptions. If you already know how to use missiles, and already know those exceptions, then it can be assumed that pointers for newbs don't apply to you. I'm not convinced by anything you wrote that such is the case, but that's neither here nor there. For a NEW player, the best bet is to focus on the basics, not try to start them on advanced concepts, so his guide is very good.

Rascula, on 10 December 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Secondly Why would anyone fire 50 - 60 missiles in one go.. thats a huge risk of loosing lock/line of sight and wasting a metric ton of ammo.. chain firing is in my opinion usually your best bet <Depending of course on your targets situation and AMS etc> for consistent damage,

Chain-firing may be good for annoying newbs with screen shake, but it's far from the best option for consistent damage. (It has other specific uses, too, but I won't get into those here.)

Assuming you're not firing a single launcher, waiting for it to hit, then firing the next one, chain-firing puts just as many missiles in the air at one time as group firing. So if you chain 4 launchers and fire them all at a target, you have the same chance of losing lock or the target getting behind cover. The differences are, any AMS between you and the target will have a greater effect, and the target has more time to get behind cover to avoid at least some of the missiles.

If you fire a 50 missile spread at a target, he has X seconds to break lock or get behind blocking cover, or he takes 50 missiles. If you chain-fire 50 missiles (assume 15, 15, 10, 10), he has X seconds to break lock or get cover, or take 15 missiles. He has X + 0.5 seconds to break lock or get cover or take another 15 missiles, etc.... Basically he has a second and a half longer to avoid at least part of the spread, with a missile warning telling him to do so the entire time.

If you want to scare or rattle a target, chain-firing is often a good call. If you want the most possible missiles to actually impact your target, group firing is key.

Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

I have a quick question that may already been addressed. BAP only works out to 180 meters, correct? LRMS are useless under 100 meters, correct? So the window is tiny if they are closing, could be useful if they are trying to run away.

So is this really worthy of a Must Have item? Granted it's useful, and my most popular mechs have their own, with a couple spares I bounce around (I'm a cheap ******* ), but I don't really see it being as useful as implied.

Also, I've always understood that AMS only takes off about 5 missiles on a good day, so two LRM5s would still have an impact, assuming there is only one AMS at play. Give that not everyone takes AMS, and that you can always find another target or coordinate with another LRMboat, I also don't see this as a big deal. (Plus what Shar said about multiple mechs with LRM5s. Very underestimated tactic.)

BAP extends sensor ranges, so your sensors actually have as much range as your missiles. Otherwise, you have 1000m missiles that can only be used at 800m or less without a spotter. Granted, you generally don't want to use LRMs on a target near max range, since there's a chance they'll move out of range, but there are times. That can also be done with SR Mod, though. The primary reason experienced missile users run BAP is to prevent a ECM Light from trolling you, completely shutting off your primary offensive capability, simply by being nearby. Or even getting caught near a DDC if the red team pushes. He might be too close to shoot, but you'll still be able to shoot other targets.

[Tesunie]

OneEyed Jack, on 10 December 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Every rule has exceptions. If you already know how to use missiles, and already know those exceptions, then it can be assumed that pointers for newbs don't apply to you. I'm not convinced by anything you wrote that such is the case, but that's neither here nor there. For a NEW player, the best bet is to focus on the basics, not try to start them on advanced concepts, so his guide is very good.

I read and can agree with a lot of what you said to the other people, so I'll respond to what is directed at me for simplicity.

I do understand what is being said here, and I can agree with some of it. My problem is, as far as "newbie guides" go, it could be better. This guide only recommends one to seemingly boat their LRMs for them to have any effective use. I'm not disagreeing with that logic, but I am saying, as far as "newies" go, they should and will want to being some back up, close range weapons. Boating is not that easy to do in this game for LRMs, as it can be difficult at best to not get too close or have someone get too close.

Every rule does have exceptions, and I agree, but there is always more than one way to use LRMs is all I want to stress. Most of my experience on using LRMs is summed up in the (kind of lengthy) first half of my link here: http://mwomercs.com/...05#entry2474605 (also found in my signature)
I prefer "guides" that don't tell one how to do something, at least in a game like this, but instead tries to inform one on how to use the items as well as how it reacts and how it functions in the game. I think it is important to explain the pros and the cons of using such a system, so people can be the most informed when they make a decision. I also like to encaurage people to find their own path. To experiment and learn what works for them. What will work for me may not work for you. What works for us might not work for someone else. Experiment and check everything out a few times.

As far as for the forum this "guide" is posted in, it is the new player help forum, which is suppose to be a place for new players to create threads with questions about the game to be answered. This, technically, belongs in the Guides and Strategies forum. Beyond that, I still can't completely agree with the "this is the only way to do this" presentation of this thread. It is a way of doing it, but not the only way. (Commandment kinda makes it sound like must be done this way, and how he has presented himself so far has given me that feeling as well. I don't disagree that you can do it his way, but there are more ways than his way that can be just as effective.)

[Nick Makiaveli]

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

BAP is only really good for LRMs in the sense that an ECM mech can nip at your ankles but you'd still be able to fire your LRMs at farther targets away. However, ECM mech is still going to kill you if you brought only LRMs to the fight...

Does that answer the question?

Ok that I can get behind. However, if you don't have an escort you won't be tossing LRMs for long.

A pure LRM boat outside of a 4/12 man is suicide, so no argument there.

[OneEyed Jack]

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

I read and can agree with a lot of what you said to the other people, so I'll respond to what is directed at me for simplicity.

You completely missed the point about exceptions. The exceptions are the things an experienced player has discovered that let them expand beyond the basics intelligently.

Expecting a guide that will teach someone every little in and out of a system with so many quirks is a bit much. Teaching them the basics and letting them learn from there is much more realistic. They're more likely to learn that way than from an extremely long guide they won't read all the way through.

Experimentation requires a baseline to do any good. Otherwise, it's just making a mess of things. These boards are already more than full enough of people spouting uninformed opinions about {Scrap} they no nothing about because they went of "experimenting" and think they're doing well when, in fact, they are not. People that think they are doing well chain-firing LRM5s through AMS because their reticle flashes. If they had ever done well with missiles, they would know better. The guy in the Atlas with so many weapons and so few heat sinks that he can't make reasonable use of the weapons, or get to position to use them because he down-graded his engine to pack them in. He thinks he's doing good because he can do 300 damage in a match. They aren't doing well, and they aren't learning from it, because they have no point of reference for what "doing well" looks like.

Giving the advice of "do this, it works" will give them a place to start. Once they have that down, they will naturally start experimenting, but they'll know when the experiment isn't producing results, and they'll have the knowledge to know some stuff simply isn't going to work before they try it.

I could also argue every point he made. Every. Single. One. But that's because I already know what works, what doesn't work, and what I can make work in certain situations, but would never recommend to someone else. Pointing out that something isn't the case all the time, without an in-depth analysis of when and why, is not helpful to new players. And the analysis will probably be TL:DR, so it's generally better, when talking to the inexperienced, so simply agree with good advice and let them learn the intricacies themselves.

[Tesunie]

Warning, my computer seems to not be keeping quoted paragraphs correctly...

OneEyed Jack, on 10 December 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

You completely missed the point about exceptions. The exceptions are the things an experienced player has discovered that let them expand beyond the basics intelligently. Expecting a guide that will teach someone every little in and out of a system with so many quirks is a bit much. Teaching them the basics and letting them learn from there is much more realistic. They're more likely to learn that way than from an extremely long guide they won't read all the way through. Experimentation requires a baseline to do any good. Otherwise, it's just making a mess of things. These boards are already more than full enough of people spouting uninformed opinions about {Scrap} they no nothing about because they went of "experimenting" and think they're doing well when, in fact, they are not. People that think they are doing well chain-firing LRM5s through AMS because their reticle flashes. If they had ever done well with missiles, they would know better. The guy in the Atlas with so many weapons and so few heat sinks that he can't make reasonable use of the weapons, or get to position to use them because he down-graded his engine to pack them in. He thinks he's doing good because he can do 300 damage in a match. They aren't doing well, and they aren't learning from it, because they have no point of reference for what "doing well" looks like. Giving the advice of "do this, it works" will give them a place to start. Once they have that down, they will naturally start experimenting, but they'll know when the experiment isn't producing results, and they'll have the knowledge to know some stuff simply isn't going to work before they try it. I could also argue every point he made. Every. Single. One. But that's because I already know what works, what doesn't work, and what I can make work in certain situations, but would never recommend to someone else. Pointing out that something isn't the case all the time, without an in-depth analysis of when and why, is not helpful to new players. And the analysis will probably be TL:DR, so it's generally better, when talking to the inexperienced, so simply agree with good advice and let them learn the intricacies themselves.

But I don't think telling them "boat it or else" is effective, nor the "easiest" route one can go either. Boating leads to times when you can't do anything about your death. Not being able to fight back causes grief, anger, and frustration. Frustration leads to one quitting on the weapon system all together (sometimes), if not the game (sometimes).

I would also hope one would be able to tell if they are being successful by the score charts at the end of each match, not that it's the greatest indicator. Always aim to be on the top of the charts (but realize that no everyone can be there either). About all I can say on that really.

Basically, Nick worded it well:

Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

Ok that I can get behind. However, if you don't have an escort you won't be tossing LRMs for long. A pure LRM boat outside of a 4/12 man is suicide, so no argument there.

All I'm saying, especially to new players, would be to pack a few close range weapons if you can, at least till you become more familiar with LRMs in general and how the game plays.

[OneEyed Jack]

Did he ever say "don't carry back-up or defensive weapons"? I must have missed that part.

[Tesunie]

OneEyed Jack, on 10 December 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Did he ever say "don't carry back-up or defensive weapons"? I must have missed that part.

Question: Do you really want me to go through his responses with me only and quote him when he tells me "2 to 4 med lasers wont do you any good"? I can if you wish.

But some of my problem I stated at first was with some of his "musts". 88 KPH? That kicks out a lot of very viable missile platform chassis (Stalker, Battlemaster, some Atlas, Awesome...). Must have Artemis? That can kill a lot of options for some effective builds (but decent advice overall). Must have TAG? Useful, I shall not deny. However, it might be better for take a med laser sometimes, custom loadout dependent of course... (especially for a beginner who might need to defend himself when someone closes in too much.) It's a hard choice sometimes, personal defense, or TAG to use LRMs through ECM land? Boat, or not?

My issue is with so many "musts". What? No chance to explore? You just have to have it as an "LRM tax"? I'd rather it be more worded as "highly recommended", instead of "must have", because there are the exceptions to every rule, as you said yourself. (Then don't argue with people who say it isn't must, but say it comes Highly Recommended, which I think no one can argue about for the most part.)

[Asmudius Heng]

I totally need to get the target decay module but dont have the cash

How much of a difference does this make to you LRM gurus? It seems like it would be awesome from the number of times i just lost lock before they hit

[Tesunie]

Asmudius Heng, on 10 December 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

I totally need to get the target decay module but dont have the cash

How much of a difference does this make to you LRM gurus? It seems like it would be awesome from the number of times i just lost lock before they hit

It's situational. It can be helpful, and it doesn't cost you any weight. Going by that standing, it doesn't hurt to take it. If you have a lot of LRMs (or even a few) I'd say it's a worth while module to take. Do you need it? No. Can you go a while without? Sure. I'd still suggest aiming for it when you can, buying one, and then just bouncing it from mech to mech for a while.

Basically, it only can do you good in this case with no bad effects (besides cost). Take it if you can. (Unless you have other modules under consideration and play more than just LRM mechs, as Target decay will only really help LRMs and spotting for friendly LRMs... maybe help SSRM too a bit...)

Edited by Tesunie, 10 December 2013 - 08:37 PM.

[Taelon Zero]

Heres a fun build I feel the need to post here
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0758b23bd84a1e6

[Kjudoon]

As a stone LRM pilot I disagree with almost all of these except for target decay, respecting ghost heat and controlling fire. I also agree AMS= Volley Fire time. Chain cannot get through easily.

Speed? over 70, not 88. This isn't Back to the Future.

BAP, worthless to LRMs except between 180 and 250m. No one's gonna convince me otherwise after hundreds of matches comparing success with and without it. Yes a close mech will interrupt locks, but honestly, this happens maybe 1 of 10 matches because if you're doing it right, nobody gets close enough to use it like that or you have other mechs near you to kill them. 1.5 tons best served as ammo and armor.

TAG? Worthless if you engage indirectly and never intend to give your enemy LOS. 750m should be considered short range while anything under 400 is point blank. You're too close.

Get LOS? stupidity incarnate. You are indirect for a reason. Giving your enemy a chance to shoot you is often foolhardy for your XL LRM boats which you have to have to maintain a fast speed and still carry decent ammo. Many expert brawlers I know love seeing LRM boats because they know who to charge ASAP and they will turn your cockpit into a canoe. The best kills are the ones neither of you see each other.

Artemis? Meh. It will increase damage on the rare times you do get LOS and tighten up groupings. Then see the previous note on LOS.

Tubes 20+ on a medium, 30+ on everything heavier. 1 ton of ammo for every 5 tubes minimum.

Lastly, know your role. You are the mobile artillery of the MWO battlefield. You aren't supposed to be in someone's face, but back behind the lines AND/OR cover firing shots into the brawler's opponents and the scouts who're giving you targets. If you derive no satisfaction from watching a large string of kill indicators flash in yellow text and the paper doll, and need to see the explosions, be a brawler or direct fire. This is not the line of work for you.

For those who help support LRMs get both target decay and 360 degree target retention, TAG, BAP and UAV.

And for every pilot, PuGer or not... if you're shooting at someone, hit the R key. You may just get the help you need to finish them off quickly as a 30-60 dmg broadside tears off lots of armor just as you desperately need it.

[Kjudoon]

Asmudius Heng, on 10 December 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

I totally need to get the target decay module but dont have the cash

How much of a difference does this make to you LRM gurus? It seems like it would be awesome from the number of times i just lost lock before they hit

The difference is between getting a shot off and maybe getting it back in time and losing lock before you can fire because targets are weak.

If your scout has 360 target retention, this is even better because if they get chased off, they'll retain that lock long enough to nail someone 950m out with solid lock. That can be up to 3-4 salvos in the air that this poor schlub can't get away from.

[Kjudoon]

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

In order to chainfire them without Ghost Heat, you need to fire groups of 2 launchers. This means AMS will eat your missiles like Pac-Man eats pellets, man.

And yet I've gunned down Jesters at 800m with LRMs only and only 30-40 tubes. It's not a one time occurrence. Frustrating as all get out because it can take a bit, but it's very doable.