Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:
Ok that I can get behind. However, if you don't have an escort you won't be tossing LRMs for long.
A pure LRM boat outside of a 4/12 man is suicide, so no argument there.
Pure LRM boats are for fools and nihilists outside of a totally metagamed 12 man. Inside a 12 man it strips one functional mech away to protect the LRM mech thereby weakening the overall whole. As for BAP dealing with yappy ECM lites at your heels, again, it's a small portion of matches it happens in, making BAP's usefulness less than that of 180 more potential damage and a half ton of armor or CASE or even 3 small lasers or a machine gun with a ton of ammo. Something else would be better in most cases.
It's armaments, not that you seem to care, is as follows:
LRM15 w/Artemis 2 tons ammo
2 MGs w/1 ton ammo
2 Med Lasers
XL 245
10 DHS
Endo
FF
This build is awful. Anyone will tell you this build is awful. It's terrible at several things instead of being good at one.
Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:
I have used BAP, Artemis, and TAG. I just don't use them often at the moment. Maybe they changed something, but when I last used them, I wasn't impressed with TAG overall.
The difference is extremely dramatic to tracking speed. You are misinformed to it's utility.
Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:
BAP was more often a waste for my LRMs than anything else (compared to weapons to fight the ECM mech), and Artemis is something I do use when I have mechs that can use a few large launchers over a lot of small launchers, if I have the tonnage and crit spaces for it.
Anyone has already read my thoughts on the matter and I guarantee you anyone that's not terrible will have BAP on LRM 'mechs. Most people that aren't terrible won't even be using LRMs in the first place, to be entirely honest.
Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:
This is a case of "you are too stubborn to see other points of view other than your own".
Because they are invalid.
You say you don't need BAP. You do.
You say you don't need TAG. You do.
You say you don't need Artemis. You do.
Without them the damage is terrible, unfocused, and worthless when it hits. Period. End of story. It's just the way it works, I didn't make the rules.
Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:
Hopefully new players can be smart enough to explore the game and try everything out for themselves and not listen purely to any one person's guide. Guides are great, but not nearly as good as real experience gained inside the game.
I too encourage new players to make their own minds up. They've seen both sides of this argument.
Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:
That link still didn't cover what I posted, as that link talks about selectively pulling certain "end match scores" to "make a mech/build/player look better". I presented my average scores for all my mechs, which is a completely different thing. After all, isn't stats something we use as a tool to help determine efficiency? Different thing, unless you are saying that I don't count as a player, and only you, your stats, and your experience counts? If that's the case, that's rather selfish of you, isn't it?
If you want damage for LoS, let me just say LRMs are not the way. Every single weapon group besides missiles of any kind are much better at direct fire situations. A Gauss, AC, PPC, and laser all have better damage to weight to travel time over missiles, and not just LRMs. They do concentrated damage, unlike LRMs (or any missile) no mater how much "tightening gear" you take. LRMs will ALWAYS splash a little damage (as well as lasers most times).
The advantage to direct fire LRMs is that it's sustained damage. An LRM skirmisher in the rear of the main group just unloading LRMs is a huge pain, in particular when people attempting to evade can still be hit outside of LOS.
Hence the main reason indirect fire is worthwhile is for when you lose LOS and shots are still in the air.
Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:
The largest advantage and strength of LRMs is it's indirect fire capabilities.
If they weren't so terrible at it.. it's really just bonus damage. Notably if you have LOS + TAG on someone and lose that LOS, you still get the grouping bonus as it takes a while to undo. (The missiles change focus at 4 key points in the arc.)
Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:
I'm not saying that you can't fire them directly (as they are more accurate that way most of the time), but they really shine in their indirect support abilities, which no other weapon can perform. If you are always using LRMs as a direct fire weapon, "you are using them wrong"... especially if they are as heavy, hot, and ammo hungry as you say.
Again, it's about sustained damage.
Also all the points you are making is why you never see LRMs in competitive play at all. The indirect is just too bad to make them worthwhile and there's better on-target options.
Honestly I'm an oddball and going against the grain by even working with LRMs, which is amusing for all the flack I get for "only running meta."
Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:
You don't have to drown a mech in LRMs for it to be effective. That's all I was trying to point out (seen as I laugh at all LRM boat builds. Reminds me of my Stalker on Stalker action, where the enemy Stalker was all LRMs... Needless to say I slowly closed the distance and flayed my opponent with 6 med lasers...).
And in a fast medium LRM boat you can maintain range on both Stalkers and absolutely obliterate them. Esp. a medium laser assault that can in no way catch up.
Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:
PS: TAG does help Artemis, but not all of TAGs advantages are applied to LRMs with Artemis. I'm sure there are a few threads that go more in depth with this than I am currently sure of saying, as I am not willing to say something as fact when I am not completely certain myself right now. All I do know is TAG is very minorly benifital to units with Artemis, beside to punch through ECM.
TAG boosts tracking strength and grouping and 100% stacks with Artemis. I don't know where you are getting that.
NARC is what doesn't stack. NARC is also pure garbage and why it's not on this list.
As a stone LRM pilot I disagree with almost all of these except for target decay, respecting ghost heat and controlling fire. I also agree AMS= Volley Fire time. Chain cannot get through easily.
BAP, worthless to LRMs except between 180 and 250m.
TAG? Worthless if you engage indirectly and never intend to give your enemy LOS. 750m should be considered short range while anything under 400 is point blank. You're too close.
Nathan Bloodguard, on 10 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:
For starters, I would also disagree with the opening post, as most of the stuff there is not correct in my opinion. Boating LRMs is a sure way ti get oneself killed by an oportunistisc light or medium mech. Having medium lasers to at least sweep the legs of lights, or if you are good enough, aim for a side torso is much better then lrms only builds.
This is why the rule includes being able to go around 90kph minimum. The whole point to that rule is two fold:
To be able to maintain range on slower units, keeping in your ideal firing range (and out of theirs)
To be able to flee back to the largest concentration of friendlies for help.
A few medium lasers on a slow 'mech have never been able to "defend" against a light looking for blood. While you might not be fast enough to outrun mediums, you should be fast enough to escape with minimal damage.
Nathan Bloodguard, on 10 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:
HOWEVER! It is still a viable opinion to boat LRMs. Both opinions (Victor Morson's AND Tesunie's) are viable.
One opinion is based on the reality of how things work in MW:O.
One opinion is based on the wishes of how things could have worked in MW:O.
They are not both valid.
Nathan Bloodguard, on 10 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:
As a side note, unless something changed, Tag and Atrimis doesn't make the grouping any tighter. All that the tag, when combined with artimis,would do is allow target locking to ecm shrouded mechs. BAP is a great idea, but if the ecm mech is smart would just pull out of the 180m or so bubble and keep the LRM boat from shooting with locks.
Now don't be surprised if i post one more time, as there was something else I was going to state, but can't recall it...
Displays an icon (a small crosshair symbol) above the target's red triangle icon in HUD to display to team-mates that target is being lased.
Effect lasts for 1 second after each laser "hit".
Generates no heat, recommend using continuous fire.
TAG completely nullifies ECM (One target only) if the beam is held on the target from beyond the ECM's range.
TAG effect HUD Icon
All effects stack 100% with Artemis.
How can you people look at those advantages then with a straight face say how unnecessary it is? This literally makes the difference between terrible scattered slow locking LRMs and on-target, fast locking anti-ECM......
Nathan Bloodguard, on 10 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:
Those who think "outside the box" tend to be the ones to win, as they come at a different angel then what people would expect.
As I've said, talking the use of LRMs at all is out of the box in most circles. You just don't find them in competitive games period.
Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:
BAP is only really good for LRMs in the sense that an ECM mech can nip at your ankles but you'd still be able to fire your LRMs at farther targets away. However, ECM mech is still going to kill you if you brought only LRMs to the fight...
Does that answer the question?
If an ECM spider is attacking you and you're in an assault, you really should let someone in a lighter 'mech deal with it while you continue to focus on a target further away.
You're not one of those people that stops firing at an advancing Atlas because a Commando is bothering you, are you?
Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:
I do understand what is being said here, and I can agree with some of it. My problem is, as far as "newbie guides" go, it could be better. This guide only recommends one to seemingly boat their LRMs for them to have any effective use. I'm not disagreeing with that logic, but I am saying, as far as "newies" go, they should and will want to being some back up, close range weapons. Boating is not that easy to do in this game for LRMs, as it can be difficult at best to not get too close or have someone get too close.
I believe and continue to believe in freedom of information for new players in games.
Too often hidden mechanics and details among the best players are almost impossible to find except through bitter trial & error. I want to arm newbies with the information they need to get the absolute most out of their performance, and let them go from there.
A lot of people seem to cling to the idea of "driving junk builds character."
But I don't think telling them "boat it or else" is effective, nor the "easiest" route one can go either. Boating leads to times when you can't do anything about your death. Not being able to fight back causes grief, anger, and frustration. Frustration leads to one quitting on the weapon system all together (sometimes), if not the game (sometimes).
I would also hope one would be able to tell if they are being successful by the score charts at the end of each match, not that it's the greatest indicator. Always aim to be on the top of the charts (but realize that no everyone can be there either). About all I can say on that really.
All I'm saying, especially to new players, would be to pack a few close range weapons if you can, at least till you become more familiar with LRMs in general and how the game plays.
Here's the whole problem with your underlying philosophy: You think "a few backup weapons" do anything. They don't.
You are not going to bring down an angry light 'mech with a few medium lasers. You are not going to stop that medium from pushing you or even really dent it with them, either.
They're nice bonus damage and on some 'mechs with lighter weapons, they're great. But with such a heavy weapon system they are simply depriving of it ammo and targeting gear.
-
... long story short, is you basically thinking like the BattleTech fluff. Quite often it describes "Adding a few lasers to discourage attack" and such, so I think a lot of people get it in their head that this is the way things should be.
Problem is, it didn't work in TT either. That rear firing medium laser has never made me think twice about backstabbing someone in BattleTech, ever, ever, ever no matter what the fluff says.
Same thing in MW:O. A few meds aren't going to stop what's coming anyway, so you're better off using that tonnage to improve what you can do well.
But some of my problem I stated at first was with some of his "musts". 88 KPH? That kicks out a lot of very viable missile platform chassis (Stalker, Battlemaster, some Atlas, Awesome...).
Correction! It kicks out the Stalker, Atlas and Awesome. The BattleMaster can get close enough.
Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:
Must have Artemis? That can kill a lot of options for some effective builds (but decent advice overall).
No effective LRM builds lack Artemis.
Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:
Must have TAG? Useful, I shall not deny. However, it might be better for take a med laser sometimes, custom loadout dependent of course...
Not taking a TAG renders that 11 ton gun you are carrying the worth of a 4 ton gun. So yeah.
Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:
My issue is with so many "musts". What? No chance to explore? You just have to have it as an "LRM tax"? I'd rather it be more worded as "highly recommended", instead of "must have", because there are the exceptions to every rule, as you said yourself. (Then don't argue with people who say it isn't must, but say it comes Highly Recommended, which I think no one can argue about for the most part.)
The problem, again, is with MW:O.
This was not my tune at all in past MW games. Again, it has to do with how PGI implemented AMS and ECM as hard counters. Thus you need to make builds specifically around defeating those hard counters, or... well, you get countered!
Asmudius Heng, on 10 December 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:
I totally need to get the target decay module but dont have the cash
How much of a difference does this make to you LRM gurus? It seems like it would be awesome from the number of times i just lost lock before they hit
It's absolutely great. It adds enough seconds that if someone ducks behind a hill, any missiles that are closer than 700m will positively hit before the lock wears off, even further if they were TAG'ed just before they went out of sight.
Makes a huge difference to hitting those targets that flee from missiles!
Speed? over 70, not 88. This isn't Back to the Future.
70 is too slow. 70 won't allow you to keep distance from an approaching medium for more than a few seconds; it won't let you back up at rates assaults move forwards, either. It simply is not fast enough to effectively control range, and that is a huge negative.
Maybe sub-88 in a BattleMaster, but that's it. Even then you should be able to get 82+.
Kjudoon, on 10 December 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:
BAP, worthless to LRMs except between 180 and 250m. No one's gonna convince me otherwise after hundreds of matches comparing success with and without it. Yes a close mech will interrupt locks, but honestly, this happens maybe 1 of 10 matches because if you're doing it right, nobody gets close enough to use it like that or you have other mechs near you to kill them. 1.5 tons best served as ammo and armor.
You must play against very, very bad ELO pilots to never have lights running around the main body with ECM screwing our missiles left & right.
This happens ALL the time, even in pugs. It is absolutely a mandatory item.
Kjudoon, on 10 December 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:
TAG? Worthless if you engage indirectly and never intend to give your enemy LOS. 750m should be considered short range while anything under 400 is point blank. You're too close.
If you are relying on indirect, you are doing it wrong.
The damage from indirect (in particular if it's fired indirect, and did not start LOS) is absolutely scattered to the wind. Even if you get respectable damage numbers, you're not doing real damage to the key areas.
TAG is one of the single best pieces of gear you can add for a ton in the game.
Kjudoon, on 10 December 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:
Get LOS? stupidity incarnate. You are indirect for a reason. Giving your enemy a chance to shoot you is often foolhardy for your XL LRM boats which you have to have to maintain a fast speed and still carry decent ammo. Many expert brawlers I know love seeing LRM boats because they know who to charge ASAP and they will turn your cockpit into a canoe. The best kills are the ones neither of you see each other.
Again this goes back to the speed. You can afford to maintain LOS because you have the speed to withdraw.
If a Hunchback is pushing on me with an AC/20, you know how I deal with it? I jump backwards, spin in mid air, lock and fire until I land then repeat. Over and over. The Hunchback never can get into range provided I'm not in a corner and either eventually gives up or dies.
You NEED direct fire to get decent damage and you NEED the speed to support direct fire.
Kjudoon, on 10 December 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:
Artemis? Meh. It will increase damage on the rare times you do get LOS and tighten up groupings. Then see the previous note on LOS.
Which should be all the time.
Kjudoon, on 10 December 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:
Lastly, know your role. You are the mobile artillery of the MWO battlefield. You aren't supposed to be in someone's face, but back behind the lines AND/OR cover firing shots into the brawler's opponents and the scouts who're giving you targets. If you derive no satisfaction from watching a large string of kill indicators flash in yellow text and the paper doll, and need to see the explosions, be a brawler or direct fire. This is not the line of work for you.
This is very inaccurate. LRMs are the Skirmishers of the MWO battlefield, filling the same role that lightly armored guys with slings did once upon a time. They can run around the rear of a formation wrecking havoc, using speed to be hard to pin down, and are a right pain when piloted this way.
In every other instance you can merely close in and crush them.
Kjudoon, on 10 December 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:
And yet I've gunned down Jesters at 800m with LRMs only and only 30-40 tubes. It's not a one time occurrence. Frustrating as all get out because it can take a bit, but it's very doable.
The problem is if it takes you three times as much ammo to kill it, when a proper LRM setup would not have, it's still a bad plan.
Kjudoon, on 10 December 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:
Pure LRM boats are for fools and nihilists outside of a totally metagamed 12 man. Inside a 12 man it strips one functional mech away to protect the LRM mech thereby weakening the overall whole. As for BAP dealing with yappy ECM lites at your heels, again, it's a small portion of matches it happens in, making BAP's usefulness less than that of 180 more potential damage and a half ton of armor or CASE or even 3 small lasers or a machine gun with a ton of ammo. Something else would be better in most cases.
Are you really suggesting a MG with a ton of ammo over a BAP? I mean.. I just..
Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:
Here's the whole problem with your underlying philosophy: You think "a few backup weapons" do anything. They don't.
This is one point I flat out disagree with. I consider pure LRM mechs with no defensive weapons to be nothing but free kills.
Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:
No effective LRM builds lack Artemis.
Again, I'd disagree. For larger launchers I will never, ever run without Artemis. The damage spread just gets more and more awful the larger you go. That, and unreliable spotters are why I acquire most of my own targets, whenever possible. Indirect is for assisting. I would never run the 6xLRM5 A1 (see above), but I have and do run mechs with multiple 5-packs, such as a LRM25 KTO-18, and I'd never mount Artemis for 5-packs due to limited return on the investment.
Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:
It's absolutely great. It adds enough seconds that if someone ducks behind a hill, any missiles that are closer than 700m will positively hit before the lock wears off, even further if they were TAG'ed just before they went out of sight.
Makes a huge difference to hitting those targets that flee from missiles!
Sweet just need to save up another 6 million c-bills in the few hours i get to play lol
For those interested, I'm going to take some video piloting an LRM skirmisher up a bit later to hopefully showcase how to utilize the speed to keep LRMs in range.
Asmudius Heng, on 11 December 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:
Sweet just need to save up another 6 million c-bills in the few hours i get to play lol
If you ever want to get a module to help the XP grind pick up the UAV, it's been a massive help for me.
i use a lone generic LRM 5 in that "don't sneeze, look at it funny or toss a pebble in it's path or else it'll take an arrow to the knee" thing known as the Locust 3S for indirect scouting. i find one mech peeking around the corner a good distance away. fire a volley- wait to see how many AMS start shooting it down. "guys there's X mechs right around the corner." also can sometimes reveal an ecm protected blob the same way if the target wanders outside the ecm bubble.also the fact that an lone lrm 5 or 5 lrm 20s will both give the target the same "incoming missile" warning which may spook someone into showing themselves for the rest of the team to shoot at.
otherwise i do use artemis anytime i run one of my small handful of lrm mechs. did forget about the ghost heat for that third launcher (since i don't lrms much) til i read about it here. i had thought my KTO 20 w/3 arty LRM10s was overheating faster than it should. swapped it out for a pair of 15s now so thanks for that anyway.
Anyway this is hardly the best video showcase for an LRM skirmisher, mostly because the last 3 minutes of the video is the team capping points and looking for a spider; the good stuff ends with the last kill.
Still since it's beyond late and this is already uploaded, I figured I'd throw it up. It at least showcases several LRM duels with heavier 'mechs in which they get pretty one-sidedly worked; it takes several at once to seriously damage my 'mech by comparison. The Jag that takes my worthless arm in exchange for his entire CT armor late into the video is a good example.
Anyway, it's hard to explain why speed is important (and this video doesn't even showcase it entirely) without video, so the next one will have some commentary I think. This was literally the first proper video I've taken with OW, basically. heh
PS: Overwolf seems very good at recording with MW:O; bad overlay, good video recorder. Barely any performance hit.
EDIT: I also didn't realize it'd pick up my MP3 playlist, heh
EDIT: Also take note how much damage my missiles appear to be doing and remember that's only 30 missiles. This is why I say Artemis & TAG are important, because the proper LRM Shadow Hawk is doing more deadly damage than the LRM boats sporting multiple 20s at 30 tons more weight are.
Edited by Victor Morson, 11 December 2013 - 07:32 AM.
Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:
70 is too slow....
>snip<
Again, these are not "commandments", these are opinions as are mine. They carry no more weight than mine, and both have their merits. Any time you say mandatory, I say a possible play choice.
I can tell that you are 'all in' to the no-fun, exploit any game flaws, win at any cost meme that has infected some of the most effective "top" groups out there. Fine. I don't play this to brag about my awesome Elo or KDR. My self-worth is not tied to it and seriously, anyone who is needs to step back and re-evaluate their life and what they place value in.
You berate we LRM pilots by saying "real pilots" don't use LRMs or we support pilots are somehow beneath 'real' pilots. If this is true, you have invalidated your premise of authority of issuing the LRM commandment edict and have no reason to be posting it. Be a brawler and comment on that. You obviously have a derisive attitude to the subtle nuances of being a support pilot.
LRMs are NOT skirmishers. They are like artillery... for those who forgot. They are designed to support and aid those who go forth. This is a Napoleonic Era tactic that has not changed since first utilized. Stay behind the lines, behind cover if possible and fire on the target coordinates just like every military action SINCE Napoleon was doing it. This is a valid and quite effective tactic.
Generally, I would rather play with people having fun with low Elos than people who have high Elos and are members of the NFL (No Fun League) slaved to the meta. Lastly, some of us have equipment issues that preclude us from being brawlers. Now now, don't bother with the whole elitist gamer system rant, I don't care. Not all of us here are hardcore and not all of us who ignore the meta are bad pilots.
LRMs are NOT skirmishers. They are like artillery... for those who forgot. They are designed to support and aid those who go forth. This is a Napoleonic Era tactic that has not changed since first utilized. Stay behind the lines, behind cover if possible and fire on the target coordinates just like every military action SINCE Napoleon was doing it. This is a valid and quite effective tactic.
Perhaps you mean assult mechs with LRMs arnt skirmishers. A medium mech can bring a single 15 with enough ammo to hold your finger down all match pretty much. Not trying to kill anybody just trying to annoy them into breaking cover. Stay where you are and get pelted or move elsewhere. Its not that SHD either, its the play style of a hover tank. This is just an example... http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Stygian I think its a shame tanks arnt in the game really.
Perhaps you mean assult mechs with LRMs arnt skirmishers. A medium mech can bring a single 15 with enough ammo to hold your finger down all match pretty much. Not trying to kill anybody just trying to annoy them into breaking cover. Stay where you are and get pelted or move elsewhere. Its not that SHD either, its the play style of a hover tank. This is just an example... http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Stygian I think its a shame tanks arnt in the game really.
Yes it is a shame we don't have armor in the game, yet. At least it better be a 'yet'.
No, any LRM mech is not really a skirmisher. They MIGHT be able to do it if they have enough secondary weapons like 2-4 MLs or a pair of MGs which lights seem to respect more than MLs for some weird reason. Then you can do a little at the end of the game when you're fresh and the enemy's in tatters. Or it's just enough to get that Jenner pelting at you to back off long enough to get into your missile envelope again and hit him point blank with LRMs. That, I do admit is a fun LOS usage.
The only time I try to 'harrass' with LRMs is when I can't run 20+ of them like on a Jenner or a mech not tricked out for enough tubes. I run very successful medium LRM boats with 20-30 tubes, I rarely run out of ammo, and have had more than a few 3+ kill games. It's like having an indirect, guided AC/5 at times when you use lots of LRM5s. All the cockpit shake, blinding and confusion with no LOS. An effective way to core out people. Try it some time in a SDH or KTO. Lots of fun.
I unlocked my 3 SHD a while back, i prefer both the hunchback and the trebuchet over the play of the SHD. Its a solid mech without a doubt but i found it rather boring.
Edit: altho i may come back to it when the artemis business is all sorted out.
Being a teacher for support piloting in my guild, I am intrigued by this post and if I may, offer some feedback.
Thou shalt carry at least 25 missiles per salvo.
Sounds good, if you've got a mech designed to be mobile and fast. Otherwise, if you're an Assault mech designed to be an LRM boat, I'd suggest at last 50 per salvo.
Thou shalt always inspect thy missile port numbers.
Yip, I'd agree, but then again, if you're taking something like a Cataphract 2X (I think - it's the one with the arm missile hardpoints), you'll soon find out that it's not exactly the best mech for the job... I'd try a Cat as an alternative in that instance.
Thou shalt always carry a Beagle Active Probe (BAP)
YES. I believe BAP is ever-valuable with any mech, let alone LRM mechs. I very rarely run any mech without BAP
Thou shalt always carry Targeting Acquisition Gear (TAG)
Sounds good
Thou shalt always carry Artemis!
I would say carry Artemis if you can... if you're fighting a mech with weakened legs, LRMs without Artemis spread more and will damage the limbs more. Remember you have allies, one of which is probably a meta-build, who are also looking around for targets to hit too, so it's not like it's a bad thing if all the LRMs aren't focused tightly. There are merits to both, but if you can, chuck Artemis on.
Thou shalt never defy Ghost Heat
Here's where I beg to differ. I don't even take any notice of Ghost Heat, though it is in the back of my mind. With an LRM mech, you want to take a weapon or two to back yourself up at short range (like a few medium lasers). Rarely do you fire ALL weapons in an alpha. The Heat efficiency doesn't matter as much in the MWO client mechlab, however you do need to know how to be able to manage your heat - knowing when to fire an alpha of LRMs and when to chain fire them to conserve heat and ammo
Thou shalt take an Adv. Target Decay Module
Yeah, but it's not necessary. If they move from your line of sight and off your radar, usually they've moved under ECM or behind a building. I mean think about it - what do you normally do when you see that flashing "Incoming Missile" warning? Stay out in the open or look for cover?
These missiles won't hit the target anyway 90% of the time even if you do have Adv. Target Decay.
Thou shalt always stay over 88kph
That's only for mobile support, which I never make any use of anyway. Why is such a high speed important? My Highlander 733P (Primary LRM boat) runs at about 58kph but it is still extremely mobile and flexible and has jump jets, and it still tears up enemies like crazy.
Fleeing enemies? That implies that you've most likely separated yourself from the rest of the pack/group, which is a big no-no if you want to be alive at the end of the match.
LRMs are a high-damage weapon when used properly, so I'm not sure why you'd try to flee. Maybe in an instance when you are on your own. But remember, sometimes attack is the best form of defense
Hopefully I've not missed a Back To The Future joke.
Thou shalt always try to maintain line of sight!
Or at least, any one of your lancemates. If someone has a definite line of sight, you should be all good to rain on that tango!
Thou shalt always control their fire!
Good points about AMS - chain fire isn't effective against AMS... and usually when you have one mech with AMS, you also have another one next to it with AMS too.
Hopefully I've made a few points worth of discussion
Again, these are not "commandments", these are opinions as are mine. They carry no more weight than mine, and both have their merits. Any time you say mandatory, I say a possible play choice.
They're mandatory if you want to run a good LRM 'mech.
They're not mandatory if you don't care about that.
Kjudoon, on 11 December 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:
I can tell that you are 'all in' to the no-fun, exploit any game flaws, win at any cost meme that has infected some of the most effective "top" groups out there. Fine. I don't play this to brag about my awesome Elo or KDR. My self-worth is not tied to it and seriously, anyone who is needs to step back and re-evaluate their life and what they place value in.
Using the best weapons & 'mechs =/= "no-fun exploits." I'm going to keep on giving newbies good information, and defending that information against ignorance, though.
Even if people wish I'd keep them in the dark and tell them to go buy a Hunchback and Awesome and tell them "put any guns on you want you can do just as well " I won't, because it's not true.
Kjudoon, on 11 December 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:
You berate we LRM pilots by saying "real pilots" don't use LRMs or we support pilots are somehow beneath 'real' pilots.
In serious games you do not see LRMs at all. This is what I meant. If you do see someone running LRMs though, they will be doing it in a 'mech like this.
Kjudoon, on 11 December 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:
If this is true, you have invalidated your premise of authority of issuing the LRM commandment edict and have no reason to be posting it. Be a brawler and comment on that. You obviously have a derisive attitude to the subtle nuances of being a support pilot.
I am one of the VERY few competitive pilots that gives LRMs the time of day and uses them heavily when possible. VERY few.
Kjudoon, on 11 December 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:
LRMs are NOT skirmishers. They are like artillery...
Artillery needs AOE. LRMs do not offer AOE. They are not artillery in any way shape or form, and do not serve the role of artillery.
If you want artillery, buy an Artillery Strike.
Kjudoon, on 11 December 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:
Generally, I would rather play with people having fun with low Elos than people who have high Elos and are members of the NFL (No Fun League) slaved to the meta. Lastly, some of us have equipment issues that preclude us from being brawlers. Now now, don't bother with the whole elitist gamer system rant, I don't care. Not all of us here are hardcore and not all of us who ignore the meta are bad pilots.
You're not bad pilots but you always be inferior, in a match, to those in proper meta. If I could make evil clones of you, Shar Wolf and the others in this thread and stick you guys in the best 'mechs, you would wreck yourselves in the trash 'mechs probably in a clean sweep.
My point is if your skill is equal, these terrible 'mechs are a ludicrous handicap.
Again, I do not hide this information from newbies and a lot of people get very offended. They jump in here to try to defend trash 'mechs, largely, because they really really want them to be good and think if they can get more people using them, that'll somehow fix the problem. It won't.
Will they never be good? Who knows. The Cataphract 4X was a bottom of the barrel 'mech six months ago, and now it's up there just under the 3D, so anything can change.
Maybe they'll let the Awesome ignore Ghost Heat entirely, and bring it back to being a good 'mech again, or something crazy. I wish they would. But I'm not steering people to bad 'mechs until it's fixed for the sake of tabletop sensibilities.
Thou shalt always carry Artemis!
I would say carry Artemis if you can... if you're fighting a mech with weakened legs, LRMs without Artemis spread more and will damage the limbs more. Remember you have allies, one of which is probably a meta-build, who are also looking around for targets to hit too, so it's not like it's a bad thing if all the LRMs aren't focused tightly. There are merits to both, but if you can, chuck Artemis on.
If you could toggle Artemis on and off in a fight, I'd agree with you, sometimes I actually WOULD turn it off to scatter shot very crit enemies.
However, I cannot suggest not taking Artemis on the off chance you might be trying to hit a wounded location shotgun style, so it's universally better to have that focused damage.
RFMG567, on 11 December 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:
Thou shalt never defy Ghost Heat
Here's where I beg to differ. I don't even take any notice of Ghost Heat, though it is in the back of my mind. With an LRM mech, you want to take a weapon or two to back yourself up at short range (like a few medium lasers). Rarely do you fire ALL weapons in an alpha.
The problem is with LRMs you can get up to 50 missiles without actually touching Ghost Heat on quite a few 'mechs, so there's no reason to do this.
It's better to configure your launchers to avoid any heat (Remember it's always from the largest launcher so 3x10s and 1x20 will flash fry you for heat, but you might only see a 10% reduction in overall sustained damage with 4x 10 or the like) if possible, so you can alpha strike through AMS at any point you wish.
Again, backup weapons are something you might be able to fit on a heavier LRM boat, like a BattleMaster or maybe a 60 tonner, but anything lighter really can't afford them and maintain the ammo & speed they need.
RFMG567, on 11 December 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:
The Heat efficiency doesn't matter as much in the MWO client mechlab, however you do need to know how to be able to manage your heat - knowing when to fire an alpha of LRMs and when to chain fire them to conserve heat and ammo
Again why it's better to configure your launchers to avoid Ghost Heat, then it can be pretty much "Alpha all day long" from a heat standpoint. You can literally fire for 3+ kills before you even need to cool for a second.
RFMG567, on 11 December 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:
Thou shalt take an Adv. Target Decay Module
Yeah, but it's not necessary. If they move from your line of sight and off your radar, usually they've moved under ECM or behind a building. I mean think about it - what do you normally do when you see that flashing "Incoming Missile" warning? Stay out in the open or look for cover?
But that's the thing: Say you're shooting at a medium 'mech. He jumps behind a rock to his buddy DDC. Without ATDM, that's it. You've just lost your shot at him because he's disappeared into the bubble and has no LOS.
With Adv. Target Decay, you still keep lock for a few seconds regardless of factors. The missiles will continue to guide in.
You cannot shoot at them from behind cover, but, if you have missiles already in the air, ATDM is the difference between wasted rounds and hits.
RFMG567, on 11 December 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:
That's only for mobile support, which I never make any use of anyway. Why is such a high speed important? My Highlander 733P (Primary LRM boat) runs at about 58kph but it is still extremely mobile and flexible and has jump jets, and it still tears up enemies like crazy.
I've explained the speed thing several times, and why I think it's a huge mistake to operate slow assault mboats like the Highlander.
To get optimum use out of LRMs, you need to bet between 180 and 750, so you can keep them tagged and not fall into minimum. Speed lets you:
Move directly away from targets at a matching or near-matching speed while firing, making it impossible for most mediums or up to close with you
Speed to immediately move to the center of your allies when harassed by a light that's faster than you
Ability to even back up at the rate an assault can move forwards, allowing you once again, to just keep them in your optimum range
Ability to dodge tons of incoming LRMs with speed & jets from non-TAG mboats
The last one is huge. It's also the reason that I utterly obliterate Stalker/Highlander LRM boats with a Shadow Hawk or Centurion regularly.
If a Shadow Hawk is moving 90 and jumping at a 90 degree angle to it's victim, 80% of the LRMs fired at the Shadow Hawk will hit the dirt, while 80% fired at the slow mboat will hit CT.
Often I trade an arm I'm not using for an entire 'mech that's 35 tons heavier. And it's all thanks to speed.
RFMG567, on 11 December 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:
Fleeing enemies? That implies that you've most likely separated yourself from the rest of the pack/group, which is a big no-no if you want to be alive at the end of the match.
LRMs are a high-damage weapon when used properly, so I'm not sure why you'd try to flee. Maybe in an instance when you are on your own. But remember, sometimes attack is the best form of defense
As a side note LRMs are excellent at killing enemies trying to fade back after being critted, but don't require you to chase them.
RFMG567, on 11 December 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:
Thou shalt always try to maintain line of sight!
Or at least, any one of your lancemates. If someone has a definite line of sight, you should be all good to rain on that tango!
Oh for sure, if someone has good lock, indirect is useful. You should just always be moving into a position to take over when that lock is lost, or to get more targets.
Kjudoon, on 11 December 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:
No, any LRM mech is not really a skirmisher. They MIGHT be able to do it if they have enough secondary weapons...
More to come. Like I said earlier this was a test of the recording software. I dislike how there's three minutes at the end of searching for a Spider, mostly, but you can see some idea of why I endorse TAG+BAP+Artemis hopefully.
Again I'll try to record some more stuff tonight, perhaps with some commentary, and hopefully with a few more "bad situations" (like how to shake a light.)
[ ED: You'll see me fire indirect a lot, then pop up to TAG someone halfway through missile flights, too; I really haven't covered that technique much here because I've been busy trying to explain to people why the TAG is vital in the first place. ]
Edited by Victor Morson, 11 December 2013 - 03:29 PM.
20
Nick Makiaveli, on 10 December 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:
" I won't, because it's not true.
