474 replies to this topic

[Ngamok]

Also for Ghost Heat. My STK-5M has 5xLRM10s. Those I chain fire to avoid ghost heat and to land them back to back to back.

[Lordred]

And the good lord said let there be missiles!
And it was good.

[Mechteric]

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Quote

Generally LRM 'mechs aren't in cap points unless surrounded by allies anyway. Minimum range forces you to stay out, shooting inward.

Translation: it is better for your pug team to lose because you should never be flexible

LRM boats aren't flexible that's the whole idea, they have one purpose and that means not putting yourself in a position that your LRMs can't be used. It doesn't do your team any good for you to die trying to cap (not being able to do any damage to the other mech) rather than continue living and help destroy enemy mechs that can't cap anymore after they are dead.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 10 December 2013 - 10:59 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

CapperDeluxe, on 10 December 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

LRM boats aren't flexible that's the whole idea, they have one purpose and that means not putting yourself in a position that your LRMs can't be used. It doesn't do your team any good for you to die trying to cap (not being able to do any damage to the other mech) rather than continue living and help destroy enemy mechs that can't cap anymore after they are dead.

My experience in Pugging says you are wrong, but that is (as I am sure Vic would LOVE to tell you) my experience/opinion and thus: to Vic anyways, invalid.

Of course, I am of the opinion that anyone ONLY carrying one weapon type is an easy target. (which would include the Gauss+PPC/AC+PPC boaters)

[Ngamok]

@Lordred

See that is sometimes me. I like to brawl with my LRMs as well. In my Stalker or Battlemaster, I would be in the mix shooting both my medium lasers and my missiles while tagging the enemy as well. My Orion doesn't have as many laser back ups so I tend to hang back with that one. My Shadowhawk I definately go in AC/2 and ER LL blazing with my LRMs as well. I feel better hen I am in the mix because closer, my missiles land on target faster than waiting for them to go 700-800m (I don't go over this anyways).

[Burke IV]

a single 15 with artymis will still tickle a jester even with the ams.

I have a question about the 180m range. Does this count when you fire the missiles or is it how far the missiles travel. I beleive its how far the missiles travel, this means a clever pilot can fire as close as 150m if both mechs are moving in the right way.

[Tesunie]

I disagree with... just about every point in the original post of this thread. None of this is "needed" to run LRMs. It all depends upon what you have your LRMs on your mech for, and how you use them.

I use them to support my team while out of line of sight or range of my other weapons sometimes, meaning that I don't always have to carry a ton of launchers to get this job done, nor do I need direct line of sight for my targets all the time.

I don't use TAG on my mechs, as I always bring backup weapons if things don't favor my LRMs. That should be one of these "commandments", to always bring backup weapons to help your LRM mechs (AKA: never boat). Only possible exception to this is if you are playing the mech in a premade team, where the other members of your lance/team can quickly come to your aid and protect you.

Artemis is helpful, but not always needed. Sometimes you want to help peel away armor to create open spaces for teammates to take advantage of. The faster lock on is useful at times, but for LRMs is normally not a must.

BAP is good at keeping an ECM mech from shutting your LRMs down, but will not help you against the ECM mech with your LRMs, where as if you have backup weapons, you can save the 1.5 tons of the BAP and get 1.5 tons of weapons instead and try to kill the ECM mech.

There are other strategies that come into play as well to help LRM users. Staying on the move is helpful, but 88 KPH is not needed. Staying near your teammates is another aid, which is not mentioned here. Also, if anything, LRMs (as a support weapon and no boated) actually provide the assault and slower mech loadouts more than other, faster mechs. It permits them to add in some firepower into engagements that might be block by terrain, outside of their other weapon ranges, etc, as they move into range of the fight. Being slower, they gain a lot from LRMs, and are able to better support their team as they blunder closer.

There are many ways to play LRMs, and not all of them depend upon them being your primary weapons. Like my Raven 4x, which use LRMs to sit back and support the team, then after LRMs are no longer effective/out of ammo, I close in and take advantages of open armor with 2 MGs and 2 med lasers. Or my old Dragon, which had 2 lrm5 launchers with only 1 ton of ammo. It supported till I was in a good position to to do damage with my main weapons. There are lots of ways to play LRMs.

Want more of my thoughts on LRMs? Click the link in my signature. It gives you a good run down on my opinion on LRMs, how to use them, and how a team can help support LRMs and how LRMs can help support them.

[Victor Morson]

Ngamok, on 10 December 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Also for Ghost Heat. My STK-5M has 5xLRM10s. Those I chain fire to avoid ghost heat and to land them back to back to back.

In order to chainfire them without Ghost Heat, you need to fire groups of 2 launchers. This means AMS will eat your missiles like Pac-Man eats pellets, man.

[Ngamok]

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

In order to chainfire them without Ghost Heat, you need to fire groups of 2 launchers. This means AMS will eat your missiles like Pac-Man eats pellets, man.

But they don't. Unless the entire team is standing around the guy I am shooting with AMS, more than half get through and only if they are super far away, Closer up, I get lots of them to land.

[Koniving]

*Slips in a few vids and slips out.*

Spoiler

Recently found and uploaded June vids of a brawling LRM Highlander.


I miss ~these~ LRMs, even though they were only half as powerful as our current ones... I loved how they moved!

From Sunday, December 7th 2013. Orion K. In the second match it is supported by an LRM-100 Stalker.

8:53 is a beautiful moment.

[Victor Morson]

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I disagree with... just about every point in the original post of this thread.

None of this is "needed" to run LRMs. It all depends upon what you have your LRMs on your mech for, and how you use them.

Then you are bad with LRMs. There is no middle ground on this.

LRMs are for killing. If you take such a heavy, large, ammo hungry weapon for any other purpose you're already off track before you even begin.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I use them to support my team while out of line of sight or range of my other weapons sometimes, meaning that I don't always have to carry a ton of launchers to get this job done, nor do I need direct line of sight for my targets all the time.

Yes you do. If you're carrying a light number of LRMs, you're just feeding AMS systems and achieving nothing but gimping your 'mech, and by extension, your team. If your main mode of fire is indirect you need even more LRMs & ammo, as lightly scattered small numbers of LRMS do almost nothing but a tickle.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I don't use TAG on my mechs, as I always bring backup weapons if things don't favor my LRMs. That should be one of these "commandments", to always bring backup weapons to help your LRM mechs (AKA: never boat).

Only possible exception to this is if you are playing the mech in a premade team, where the other members of your lance/team can quickly come to your aid and protect you.

For one, TAG should always be priority over backup weapons. An LRM 'mech without TAG is a terrible LRM 'mech, incapable of breaking ECM bubbles or hitting fast movers.

Backup weapons are simply not worthwhile unless you can bring enough firepower to make a difference. Pretty much that limits your option to the BattleMaster, because there's not enough tonnage and space on the faster, more useful missile boats to mount them.

Remember, a few extra tons of LRM ammo = A dead 'mech
A few medium lasers = Something to make you feel better that ultimately accomplishes nothing. It's better you have the speed to get back to your own line, pug or premade alike.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

Artemis is helpful, but not always needed. Sometimes you want to help peel away armor to create open spaces for teammates to take advantage of.

Worst thing anyone ever says about LRMs: "It's a softening weapon" "It's to peel armor for my teammates" "I weaken them up for others."

BULL.

LRMs are an extremely heavy, and extremely large weapon system that takes everything out of your 'mech. Now, is it good to use one like this? Sure, while you're getting in position to get that LOS+TAG+ARTEMIS triple combo.

But at the end of the day the only way LRMs are justified is if they do serious damage and outright kill targets through concentrated, focused damage. And for that, you need Artemis. There's no exceptions.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

BAP is good at keeping an ECM mech from shutting your LRMs down, but will not help you against the ECM mech with your LRMs, where as if you have backup weapons, you can save the 1.5 tons of the BAP and get 1.5 tons of weapons instead and try to kill the ECM mech.

This doesn't make sense. "BAP will help prevent an ECM mech from shutting your missiles down, so you should take 1.5 tons of backup weapons [ Ed: A single streak sans ammo!? ] instead to deal with it."

Reality: Without BAP an ECM Spider runs past you for 1 second. Every missile you have in the air drops like a rock. If an ECM 'mech walks near you, you can't lock at all without BAP. Remember just because something is close to you, that's not what you want to shoot ; your job as an LRM 'mech is to evade those lights and keep pouring fire on your main target.

On top of that BAP offers targeting bonuses, but again the main reason is so something entering your proximity won't turn off all your guns. You cannot get away with skimping on BAP or your 'mech is bad.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

There are other strategies that come into play as well to help LRM users. Staying on the move is helpful, but 88 KPH is not needed. Staying near your teammates is another aid, which is not mentioned here.

The speed is for two things:
- To fallback to your line if you're in trouble
- To maintain range on targets.

The second one is why "staying with your team" is not a viable option for LRMs. If a Centurion is moving towards you at around 100, being able to run away from him (directly backwards with jump jets) nearly as fast as he's moving forwards mean you can keep shooting and shooting, and deal massive damage before risk of being overrun. It will also let you back up at the speed assaults move forwards, again, allowing you to keep optimal range.

If you are in a big, slow mboat you can't dictate the engagement range and are already at a huge disadvantage.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

Also, if anything, LRMs (as a support weapon and no boated) actually provide the assault and slower mech loadouts more than other, faster mechs. It permits them to add in some firepower into engagements that might be block by terrain, outside of their other weapon ranges, etc, as they move into range of the fight. Being slower, they gain a lot from LRMs, and are able to better support their team as they blunder closer.

Honestly a single LRM wouldn't be a bad choice - once upon a time in closed beta it was good even! - if not for the LRM's arch-nemesis, the AMS.

Because of the AMS a single launcher is worthless. If so much as a single Commando with AMS walks between you and your victim, you're not going to do as much damage as a medium laser if that. You need a SWARM of missiles to overwhelm AMS, which is found all the time in pugs.

Ironically one of the reasons LRM sucker punches work in competitive is nobody uses LRMs so nobody uses AMS a lot of the time.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

There are many ways to play LRMs, and not all of them depend upon them being your primary weapons. Like my Raven 4x, which use LRMs to sit back and support the team, then after LRMs are no longer effective/out of ammo, I close in and take advantages of open armor with 2 MGs and 2 med lasers.

I have to be blunt: That sounds absolutely terrible. Terrible 'mech, terrible loadout, terrible plan.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

Or my old Dragon, which had 2 lrm5 launchers with only 1 ton of ammo. It supported till I was in a good position to to do damage with my main weapons. There are lots of ways to play LRMs.

Lots of bad ways to play LRMs by the sound of it.

Again that won't pierce AMS and 2 unenhanced, non-BAP, non-TAG, non-Artemis LRM5s are going to accomplish two things: Jack and Squat.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

Want more of my thoughts on LRMs? Click the link in my signature. It gives you a good run down on my opinion on LRMs, how to use them, and how a team can help support LRMs and how LRMs can help support them.

I strongly encourage new players to avoid clicking this link.

[Victor Morson]

Ngamok, on 10 December 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

But they don't. Unless the entire team is standing around the guy I am shooting with AMS, more than half get through and only if they are super far away, Closer up, I get lots of them to land.

Lots of red flashes / lots of things landing.

If you chainfire an LRM/10 and an AMS is between you and your victim, about 2 missiles will get through. In the "stream" that means 1 missile early, one missile late, so you see a couple red flashes and blinking lights.

In reality less than 20% if that of your firepower even made it through. If you fired all of those missiles at the same time, roughly 85%+ of your firepower would make it through, but then you eat Ghost Heat with your setup.

[Buckminster]

Koniving, on 10 December 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

*Slips in a few vids and slips out.*

Spoiler

Recently found and uploaded June vids of a brawling LRM Highlander.


I miss ~these~ LRMs, even though they were only half as powerful as our current ones... I loved how they moved!

From Sunday, December 7th 2013. Orion K. In the second match it is supported by an LRM-100 Stalker.

8:53 is a beautiful moment.

Wait... when did you go Steiner?

And to the OP, I think a lot of it depends on what you intend to accomplish with your LRMs. I have a single LRM5 on my Shadow Hawk 2D2 and 2H, and it's quite effective. Sure, AMS may eat it some times, but a lot of mechs aren't carrying AMS anymore, and if that "missile warning" light makes them move when I need them to, then I consider that 5 missiles well spent.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Of course, I am of the opinion that anyone ONLY carrying one weapon type is an easy target. (which would include the Gauss+PPC/AC+PPC boaters)

You sorely underestimate AC+PPC boaters.

Sug, on 10 December 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

I always keep TAG in a separate group. If it's grouped with my missiles then I'll have to fire an unlocked salvo to activate TAG and get a lock on a target with ECM.

I keep it in both. I have my primary TAG firing group, but then I just also have it on my missile group.

That way once the missiles are in the air I can just "roll over" to the other mouse button, and not need to hold down both at all times.

No impact on performance, but makes controlling it a little easier.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

And yet it does things very well that no other catapult can even dream of (2lrm 4srm builds for example)'

If SRMs ever get fixed, the A1 might make a solid SplatCat again one day. All it was ever really good at aside from being a Streakcat that's dead now.

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

If you are hunting lights with LRM it could be argued you are already doing it wrong, especially if you are flinging a pair of 15s or 20s at them.

Oh you should positively focus on the bigger targets first, make no mistake.

But with a TAG lock, if your light team is in a pitched battle with other lights, throwing 100-120 missiles in their direction can tip the whole fight. You should positively not make light stomping your first priority, but a properly set LRM mech won't be defenseless against one, either.

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Ghost heat is much less a bogeyman than everyone makes it out to be.

It's a massive bogeyman. It screws viable builds and weapon systems over, including LRMs, which are particularly "gamey" since it's not based on per-missile salvos, but per-launcher linkage.

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

By the time they have the GXP to get it, they no longer really qualify as a 'new player'
(that is several thousand matches my friend)

Several thousand matches? Are you serious? I made 10GXP on Sunday!

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Translation: it is better for your pug team to lose because you should never be flexible

Absolutely not the case, though LRM mechs are one of the rare designs that cannot really enter a point to hold it unless it is a move of total desperation.

For what it's worth there have been a few times I've been the only 'mech in range to stall a cap and have flung my LRM boat right into the hornet's nest for that end, but if you can at all avoid it, it's the one kind of 'mech that's terrible at capping.

[Victor Morson]

Ngamok, on 10 December 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

Only one Stalker has tubes higher than 10 and that's the 3H. All the others have 10s and 6s so unless you want to run all LRM10s and 5s, the 3H can handle the 20s in the arms and 5s in the torso slots.

10s can be acceptable. If you put 2x 15 2x 5 through 10 ports, it'll come out in very back-to-back waves that won't massively impact your ability to crack AMS.

Now, the 6 ports.. try to only put the 5s on the 6 ports. If you do that, the LRM/5s will fire off with the first part of the 15s, and ultimately, you'll only have a few missiles fired in close proximity behind the swarm.

[Modo44]

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Several thousand matches? Are you serious? I made 10GXP on Sunday!

You are addicted. Seek help.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Several thousand matches? Are you serious? I made 10GXP on Sunday!

I think you either made a typo on that: or shown yourself to have no grasp of math.
Modules cost several thousand GXP to unlock, if you only earned 10 the whole of Sunday....

Let me put it this way: bare minimum earnings (you did nothing) you earn 5 GXP for losing, 15 for winning.
On a good match, you earn aproximately 30-40 gxp
It costs how much to unlock the module you suggest?

I would ask you to do the math, but I am sure you see why I do not.

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

10s can be acceptable. If you put 2x 15 2x 5 through 10 ports, it'll come out in very back-to-back waves that won't massively impact your ability to crack AMS.

You do realize those 15s are coming out of that in 10 then 5 more right?

[Victor Morson]

Modo44, on 10 December 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

You are addicted. Seek help.

It was like three hours total?

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

I think you either made a typo on that: or shown yourself to have no grasp of math.
Modules cost several thousand GXP to unlock, if you only earned 10 the whole of Sunday....

Let me put it this way: bare minimum earnings (you did nothing) you earn 5 GXP for losing, 15 for winning.
On a good match, you earn aproximately 30-40 gxp

I'll admit, I'm using UAVs to speed my XP gathering up a lot. It's made a HUGE increase to the mount of XP, and GXP, I can earn per match and given I was ranking 'mechs for a few hours, I was taking one on every drop.

So perhaps I should have really said as much. I do highly endorse the UAV for all new players though as a great first module to upgrade, as an investment in future XP gaining.

PS: 7500 GXP is about the same as any other module for the Adv. Target Decay, so I see no harm in recommending that the LRM-minded pilot make it a priority.

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

You do realize those 15s are coming out of that in 10 then 5 more right?

Yes, and that's fine. 10-5 back to back keeps them in a tight cloud - tighter than chain fire by a wide margin. Problems only start happening when you end up with 5-5-5 clouds or the like, so that AMS can address just a few missiles at a time.

By the time the front 10 hit, the AMS will not be in a position to protect the back 5 from a 10 tube.

Edited by Victor Morson, 10 December 2013 - 01:54 PM.