892 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 26 March 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

That is not a theory and can be done in canon. You would just lose the Omni abilities of that Summoner.

You mean stock variants right? Because setting up a Timber Wolf like a Summoner is canon. (And does not void the mech's Omni abilities eather.)

What makes you say this? What would stop me from putting a UAC20 and JJs on a Timber Wolf?

Timber Wolf S

I don't get what your point is anymore Nathan, is that a 75 ton mech will out do a 70 ton mech?

Cause sure, thats the general blueprint of how the construction of a mech works. The heavier mech has more resources. If thats your point I'll happily concede that a Timberwolf is 'better' than any omni mech under 75 tons.

If you are trying to show that customising a heavier mech to do the same as a lighter mech will result in the heavier mech having surplus capacity, sure. No one's going to argue that if you take two tonnages in the same weight range, the heavier one will be ummmmmm, heavier.

But thats common knowledge, and not my point.

A Madcat Prime has a running alpha heat peak of 50, and capacity of 32. Ergo, it can use circa 82% of its 28 tons tons of weapon pod space efficiently. EDIT, poor Maths, its more like 65% of pod space.

A Summoner Prime has a jumping alpha heat peak of 27 and a heat capacity of 28. Ergo, it can use 100% of its weapons every turn without worrying about heat.

If you want to build a Timberwolf identical to Summoner you will have a 75 tons mech with the same weapons, a wasted heat sink and more armour. The heavier mech will always have more cause thats how the construction rules work.

A 55 ton omni will also beat a 40 tonner, and a 35 tonner will beat a 20 tonner as well.

Edited by Craig Steele, 26 March 2014 - 08:39 PM.

[Dakkaface]

Pariah Devalis, on 26 March 2014 - 03:14 AM, said:

Sounds an awful lot like the Summoner is going to act a lot like a jump capable Dragon. Relatively easy to squish, but designed to hit and fade with a limited set of weapons. Or, perhaps, a Shadowhawk - except present a bigger target than the 'hawk.

Well, 10 tons heavier and hopefully without the hitbox issues of a Dragon. The Thor looks pretty squat in the artwork though - it might not end up as tall as in canon.

[Shiro Matsumoto]

Chain Fire, on 13 December 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

So...

Fire Moth
Mist Lynx
Dragonfly
Fenris
Mad Dog
Hellbringer
Gargoyle
Gladiator

Hero Mechs maybe?

Round 2 Release Pack, see August 2014 . 250,- for the Executioner Pack. "Now the Invasion is Really Really There! (wanna buy a Mech?)"

Edited by John McFianna, 27 March 2014 - 12:29 AM.

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 26 March 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

I don't get what your point is anymore Nathan, is that a 75 ton mech will out do a 70 ton mech?

Cause sure, thats the general blueprint of how the construction of a mech works. The heavier mech has more resources. If thats your point I'll happily concede that a Timberwolf is 'better' than any omni mech under 75 tons.

If you are trying to show that customising a heavier mech to do the same as a lighter mech will result in the heavier mech having surplus capacity, sure. No one's going to argue that if you take two tonnages in the same weight range, the heavier one will be ummmmmm, heavier.

But thats common knowledge, and not my point.

A Madcat Prime has a running alpha heat peak of 50, and capacity of 32. Ergo, it can use circa 82% of its 28 tons tons of weapon pod space efficiently. EDIT, poor Maths, its more like 65% of pod space.

A Summoner Prime has a jumping alpha heat peak of 27 and a heat capacity of 28. Ergo, it can use 100% of its weapons every turn without worrying about heat.

If you want to build a Timberwolf identical to Summoner you will have a 75 tons mech with the same weapons, a wasted heat sink and more armour. The heavier mech will always have more cause thats how the construction rules work.

A 55 ton omni will also beat a 40 tonner, and a 35 tonner will beat a 20 tonner as well.

My point is not "heavier is better" my point is "Timber Wolf can do it too". (Also, the Timber Wolf has 27.5 tons of pod space.)

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 27 March 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

My point is not "heavier is better" my point is "Timber Wolf can do it too". (Also, the Timber Wolf has 27.5 tons of pod space.)

And my point is that using the canon variants of 3050, it cannot.

There is no UAC20 Madcat in 3050, nor one with jump jets.

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 27 March 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

And my point is that using the canon variants of 3050, it cannot.

There is no UAC20 Madcat in 3050, nor one with jump jets.

What? Did you forget that they are OMNI Mechs? Did you forget about what can be done with an OMNI Mech?

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 27 March 2014 - 02:55 AM, said:

What? Did you forget that they are OMNI Mechs? Did you forget about what can be done with an OMNI Mech?

I think you're confusing the issue.

Yes of course Omni mechs allow you to "plug and play". Summoners have the same ability.

But I am not comparing min max processes to a stock variant, thats just not a comparison that can be made fairly.

If you want to min max a Timberwolf for a certain 'game' go ahead, its a heavier mech and WILL have more resources. That's a no brainer.

On the other hand, if you take a canon variant that canon pilots actually used (3050) and put it up against a Summoner canon variant that canon pilots actually used (3050) in close terrain, then canonically the Summoner will do a very fine job and more than likely leave the Timberwolf a smoking wreck.

Because, it's canon variants run more heat efficient and they are more mobile with jump jets.

Ergo, it's not a mech that should be dismissed out of hand assuming it translates well into MW:O.

[Pariah Devalis]

I think dismissing custom variants is going to be a poor route to go considering one of the first things people will do with the mechs in MWO will be to customize them. Having said that, not all the variants are time-line appropriate, so not all the omni-pods will be available. We need to see which pods they give us. If they give the Timber Wolf a jump jet configuration then the Summoner is in trouble, because you can already use, I think it is the Alpha, with the ballistic arm, shave off half a ton of leg armor putting the available tonnage at 28 tons even.

The practical application of a Summoner in MWO cannot be defended with stock variants because those are probably some of the last things we are going to see. Instead, we will have a mech that is five tons lighter, but gains jump jets. A fair trade, except it also suffers from a severe armor lacking issue, and any attempt to fix that problem eats into its pod space, further reinforcing the mech's lack of weapon options. I am worried about the Summoner, really. That is, in fact, the only Clan mech I worry about.

[Craig Steele]

Pariah Devalis, on 27 March 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

I think dismissing custom variants is going to be a poor route to go considering one of the first things people will do with the mechs in MWO will be to customize them. Having said that, not all the variants are time-line appropriate, so not all the omni-pods will be available. We need to see which pods they give us. If they give the Timber Wolf a jump jet configuration then the Summoner is in trouble, because you can already use, I think it is the Alpha, with the ballistic arm, shave off half a ton of leg armor putting the available tonnage at 28 tons even.

The practical application of a Summoner in MWO cannot be defended with stock variants because those are probably some of the last things we are going to see. Instead, we will have a mech that is five tons lighter, but gains jump jets. A fair trade, except it also suffers from a severe armor lacking issue, and any attempt to fix that problem eats into its pod space, further reinforcing the mech's lack of weapon options. I am worried about the Summoner, really. That is, in fact, the only Clan mech I worry about.

Sure, but we can't really do comparisons on min max builds?

At the end of the day a Timberwolf will have more tonnage and more technology (Endo Steel) so it should have more resources than a Summoner every day of the week.

Ofc you can min max it better than a Summoner. Warhawk will do them both in too.

Personally i'm going to be surprised if there is a Timberwolf with Jump Jets but hey, it might come true too

[Pariah Devalis]

Considering there is a Hero mech which may (or may not) be timeline appropriate (the Pryde) that comes with 4 jump jets (and 2xERLLas, 2xERMLas, 2xLRM20, 1xERSLas), I would be shocked to not see it released not too far down the pipe after Clan mech release, if only because it is a Timber Wolf.

Also, while I agree that a heavier mech can min max better, usually, considering the 3-3-3-3 system, do not include mechs of other weight brackets. If you are forced to take 3 heavy mechs, you are taking three heavy mechs. Which ones do you take? The one that can do the other one's job BETTER, or the other one? It really comes down to a fight between Summoner and Timber Wolf, as the Hellbringer would theoretically bring ECM to the table and the Mad Dog might very easily be given extra missile hardpoints - though even then it might be outshone by the Timber Wolf.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 27 March 2014 - 06:10 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Pariah Devalis, on 27 March 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

Considering there is a Hero mech which may (or may not) be timeline appropriate (the Pryde) that comes with 4 jump jets (and 2xERLLas, 2xERMLas, 2xLRM20, 1xERSLas), I would be shocked to not see it released not too far down the pipe after Clan mech release, if only because it is a Timber Wolf.

Also, while I agree that a heavier mech can min max better, usually, considering the 3-3-3-3 system, do not include mechs of other weight brackets. If you are forced to take 3 heavy mechs, you are taking three heavy mechs. Which ones do you take? The one that can do the other one's job BETTER, or the other one? It really comes down to a fight between Summoner and Timber Wolf, as the Hellbringer would theoretically bring ECM to the table and the Mad Dog might very easily be given extra missile hardpoints - though even then it might be outshone by the Timber Wolf.

The point you raise is exactly why I doubt we will see a Jump Jet Timberwolf for some time.

If there is, there is very little distinction between the Summoner and the so equipped Timberwolf.

It will largely come down to the same sort of things we see in IS mechs, SHD, WVR or GRF, what do you value more. Arm or torso AC, torso turn or not. Pilot preference will kick in

[CyclonerM]

Craig Steele, on 27 March 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

Pilot preference will kick in

If i was a staunch Jade Falcon fan, i would have bought the Summoner first, anyway.

[Vagabond HT]

I bought the warhawk package, and all i can say is i don't know which mech to start off in, I am thinking about the Nova with 6 ERMLS and 6 MPLS mixed between the two arms for some Medium to close range action.

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 27 March 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

If there is, there is very little distinction between the Summoner and the so equipped Timber Wolf.

Oh, NOW you get my point.

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 27 March 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

Oh, NOW you get my point.

I got your point before, it just wasn't what I was trying to demonstrate to the poster that was dissing the Summoner

If you min max both of them then there is very little difference.

If the canon variants applied without customisation the Summoner can be a very tough customer.

[CCC Dober]

The way I see it, you're more likely to choose the Timberwolf over the Summoner if you prefer missiles. The Summoner on the other hand does not have a prominent center of mass cockpit (which is a huge weakness) and the geometry makes it easier to spread damage around by comparison.

Back in MW4 I've used both Mechs extensively and even though you could pack more punch in the Timberwolf, the geometry of the Mech was actively working against it. Straight on or viewed from the side, believe it or not, there were Assault Mechs that were harder to hit than a Timberwolf.

Numbers on paper may show that the Timberwolf is a better performer, but I cannot stress enough that its performance stands and falls with hitboxes. Which was the reason that Mektek improved them, so that not every shot aimed at the torso was hitting the center torso by default. This helped a lot with survivability (and pulling it from the dusty shelf), but the chunky geometry still remained (read: easy to hit). The original hitboxes were kind of hilarious in that respect.

I guess the takeaway is that PGI has the last word on performance, which not only includes weapons and equipment as one might think, but also 'soft stats' such as hitboxes, size and damage transfer (think of the ears). One could learn a lot by looking back to MW4 (and mods) to see what works and what doesn't. Just saying.

[KuroNyra]

CCC Dober, on 28 March 2014 - 02:18 AM, said:

The way I see it, you're more likely to choose the Timberwolf over the Summoner if you prefer missiles. The Summoner on the other hand does not have a prominent center of mass cockpit (which is a huge weakness) and the geometry makes it easier to spread damage around by comparison.

Back in MW4 I've used both Mechs extensively and even though you could pack more punch in the Timberwolf, the geometry of the Mech was actively working against it. Straight on or viewed from the side, believe it or not, there were Assault Mechs that were harder to hit than a Timberwolf.

Numbers on paper may show that the Timberwolf is a better performer, but I cannot stress enough that its performance stands and falls with hitboxes. Which was the reason that Mektek improved them, so that not every shot aimed at the torso was hitting the center torso by default. This helped a lot with survivability (and pulling it from the dusty shelf), but the chunky geometry still remained (read: easy to hit). The original hitboxes were kind of hilarious in that respect.

I guess the takeaway is that PGI has the last word on performance, which not only includes weapons and equipment as one might think, but also 'soft stats' such as hitboxes, size and damage transfer (think of the ears). One could learn a lot by looking back to MW4 (and mods) to see what works and what doesn't. Just saying.

Don't forget this aint MW4.

Beside, with the omni-mech capacity of changing part from model A to model B for one part of the mech.
It could be possible to build a Timber Wolf full axed brawling for example.
A TW using laser, and who have Streak SRM or SRM 6 in the "ears".

[CyclonerM]

KuroNyra, on 28 March 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Don't forget this aint MW4.

Beside, with the omni-mech capacity of changing part from model A to model B for one part of the mech.
It could be possible to build a Timber Wolf full axed brawling for example.
A TW using laser, and who have Streak SRM or SRM 6 in the "ears".

Probably switching an arm you should be able to carry at least an UAC/20

[Edward Mattlov]

CyclonerM, on 28 March 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Probably switching an arm you should be able to carry at least an UAC/20

We have been given no indication of whether there will be UAC/20s in the game or not. Quad UAC/20 Dire Wolves would be insane.

[Gremlich Johns]

considering that I rarely play more than 3-5 mechs in my stable of 22, I'll wait until I can get Clan tech for free.