1978 replies to this topic

[ssm]

ravenkk, on 18 December 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

maybe, but you idea are base on you assumption that people do not like to have numbers advantage to other team and will

less likely to go for IS Mech once more powerful Clan one are out. we do not know the statistic for mech use rate:

i would give a example eg: "there was once upon time that people worried Atlas would be the one and only

mech on the match" AKA get Atlas or else kind of thing.

However as it turn out: in most match Atlas is around 25% to 35%, you still seen large number of other

mech.


You may have a point.

however rather than make people less likely to buy Clan pack Now and play MWO in near further , because they felt the PGI

change the Game and (spend Money and time to balance the mech and tech! which could be used on other thing).


They would Better of introduce the Clan tech and mech with out change it and see how it go, if there a major problem them

balance it, which are what happened to IS mech (Remember the PPC and ghost heat? back than you could use 6 PPC on a

starker. good time )

I'd personally like to have fully functional CW before the Clans arrive, but well, we have to work with what's in front of us. The only way (other than trying to balance Clans through nerfs, as PGI intends to do) would be simply restricting matches to Clan vs. Clan and IS vs.IS only.

And I would be actually fine with that.

[D Sync]

ssm, on 18 December 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

All you are post detail-lacking one-liners, I'm afraid.

"Fix everything I want to be fixed" and "Let's just implement random number generator from TT to balance FPS shooter" aren't very informative arguments, don't you think?

There is an old saying, that I'm positive you are not familiar with, Keep It Simple Stupid (K.I.S.S.).


Omni mechs should be omni mechs.

Clans drop with fewer numbers against IS.

Clans drop with same number against clans.

IS drop with same number against IS.

Targeting computers will eliminate any chance of cheating, and bring a real sense of balance to the game.


Besides, I've listed a small amount of things that are broken in this game already.

Don't reinvent the wheel.

[ssm]

SuperUser013, on 18 December 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

There is an old saying, that I'm positive you are not familiar with, Keep It Simple Stupid (K.I.S.S.).


Omni mechs should be omni mechs.

Clans drop with fewer numbers against IS.

Clans drop with same number against clans.

IS drop with same number against IS.

Targeting computers will eliminate any chance of cheating, and bring a real sense of balance to the game.


Besides, I've listed a small amount of things that are broken in this game already.

Don't reinvent the wheel.

And again - you completely miss the main point - what would prevent majority of players to go over to the Clans and thus make CW (and whole palnned metagame) worthless?

I don't even want to comment of whole Targeting computers idea, as you didn't even bother to post anything besides them being conterpart to TT dice.

[D Sync]

ssm, on 18 December 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

And again - you completely miss the main point - what would prevent majority of players to go over to the Clans and thus make CW (and whole palnned metagame) worthless?

I don't even want to comment of whole Targeting computers idea, as you didn't even bother to post anything besides them being conterpart to TT dice.

This game will be worthless if the clans proceed down the path PGI has laid out.

A majority of players will go the clans despite the heinous price-tag.

You must keep in mind clan weapons (which are FAR superior to IS weapons) will be available for IS chassis'.

If you cannot wrap your mind around targeting computers (which are in the VERY first book of Battletech) then I can not do anything to help you further understand how balance works.

[Karl Streiger]

SuperUser013, on 18 December 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Clans drop with fewer numbers against IS.

So 5 vs 12?
5 ClanOmnis should easily take on 12 stock Mechs without Star league technology
10 vs 12
IS Stock Mechs with best equipment and pilots vs Clan

I don't even know how balance turn out when 10 min maxed clans will meat 12 min maxed IS Mechs.

SuperUser013, on 18 December 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

If you cannot wrap your mind around targeting computers (which are in the VERY first book of Battletech) then I can not do anything to help you further understand how balance works.

Not the first book - the clans appeared in the later 80's -> and the regarding the targeting computer - how should a targeting computer help to balance current game - currently all our weapons use targeting computers.

The PPC - in TT terms is a 20 damage PPC with build in Targetting Computer with House Rule addition

Edited by Karl Streiger, 18 December 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[ssm]

SuperUser013, on 18 December 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

This game will be worthless if the clans proceed down the path PGI has laid out.

A majority of players will go the clans despite the heinous price-tag.

You must keep in mind clan weapons (which are FAR superior to IS weapons) will be available for IS chassis'.

If you cannot wrap your mind around targeting computers (which are in the VERY first book of Battletech) then I can not do anything to help you further understand how balance works.

Oh, I've read most of the books - I'm asking how would you implement targeting computers in fps game without making gameplay completely silly "target-fire weapons-pray for dice to be favourable"

Edited by ssm, 18 December 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[Spadio]

Clan Mechs should be allowed full access to undilluted clan tech without these balancing nerfs. 10 Clan mechs vs 12 IS can be made to equal out when balanced with addional tonnage Elo penalties. This brings in the lore flavor without killing the tech or the balance.

Innersphere Mechs wishing to use superior clan systems should be forced to grind for Gxp to purchase and equip modules that could for example allow the use of one clan weapon system or Clan engine. (Maybe an engine should take two module slots)

[DocBach]

SuperUser013, on 18 December 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Clans drop with fewer numbers against IS.

Clans drop with same number against clans.

IS drop with same number against IS.

This is a good start. Another thing that would be nice is to see a different currency then C-bills or loyalty points for Clan players that award Clan behavior, so zellbrigen isn't completely enforced but players are rewarded or penalized for playing the Clans a certain way.

With pregame lobbies, Clan players should be able to see the tonnage of the enemy team and bid away their weight (especially if there are restrictions on adding armor/engines to Omnis) for more honor. Some changes in the HUD like a second box around a 'Mech a friendly has engaged to let you know not to shoot at it without to prevent honor violations, or something along those lines.

Also, a big change to weapons could be how they function; add recoil mechanics to heavy Clan AC's particularly the UAC10 and 20, and take away LRM indirect fire as Clan 'Mechs as in the beginning of the Invasion Clanners shunned things like fire support.

Edited by DocBach, 18 December 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[Colddawg]

Why not have the $500 Khan Variant come along with the $210 clan package? You'd sell a lot more of them and then people can choose to upgrade to the $240. In the long run it will go a long way to win back some of the community.

[Kalagaeth Peledaen]

Well, guess it's time for my .02 C-Bills. Limiting Omnimechs to their "canon" builds is, frankly, a really bad idea. You won't be implementing Omnimechs, you'll be implementing "I'm too lazy to figure out how to balance this properly" Mechs. For those who didn't really study battletech, and It appears the people trying to balance the clantech didn't:

1) Omnimechs are mechs WITHOUT hardpoint limitations, the base chassis are fixed, such as Endosteel, Ferro Fibrous,engine size,heatsinks, and jumpjets(depends on the mech). Any omnimech can fit what ever it wants with crit slot limitations in any remaining slots. If you actually looked at most of the canon mechs, they tended to have so many weapons that if they alpha'd they would overheat so badly they'd be shut down for 1-2 turns, or possibly explode depending on heat rules(supernova anyone?)

2)Clan weapons tech is supposed to be overpowering! When they showed up they rocked the whole innersphere, made huge inroads in the space they invaded, and generally kicked over every little squabbling feudal lord they wanted. The inner sphere released/developed/found balancing tech, and some tech that was superior in range/damage to clantech even if it was heavier, such as ERLRM's(Extended range LRM) and RAC's (Rotary autocannons). Don't nerf the clan tech, and really don't @#$% with the tonnage, If anything, accelerate the innner sphere tech that gives the inner sphere less of a disadvantage. Fix the ghost heat issues, and the rest will be much more balanced, without having to nerf anything! If you want to encourage diverse designs, Put a heat multiplier based on how many "class" of parts is in a location (laster +PPC, missile ac, etc) to discourage midless stacking of say, ERLL? That would be less "Gamebreaking" as people could still run "their" design, they would just have to manage the heat better, more heatsinks, slower fire rate, coolant pods, and so forth.

3)Match balancing is actually fairly simple, for the moment at least. If you can't figure out how to cut the number of clan mechs vs inner sphere, or make sure clan tonnage is reasonably balanced between teams, then just have clan fight clan. In Canon, the clans always used combat as their judicial system for settling wrongs. I hear the argument that "players don't understand battletech and won't follow clan combat styles" People are already not following battletech, or did the as-7RS usually run around with 4 PPC/ERPPC/LPL/LL/ERLL?

I (and I hope the rest of the playerbase) understand you're trying to proceed at a 1:1 time ratio, from when the game started. Perhaps you should pause that while you fix existing issues, such as the ghost heat, such as the matchmaking. Release the clans, you've already set that date. Let people fight clan Vs clan matches. Let people get the Idiocy of a 8 LPL Direwolf out of their system. Please don't break the Clans to fit some arbitrary "balance" that just ensures no one likes them. There are ways to balance out the Clans that don't eliminate their "overpoweredness".One Vs One, the clan mech SHOULD shred the IS mech, barring profound stupidity, you can't balance that and make it 50/50 odds without breaking clan tech. There are also ways to encourage people to play the Inner Sphere that don't make the Clans weaker than they should be (what do mercenaries fight for again?)
I hope that you can find them.
I hope you got your .02 C-Bills worth

Kalagaeth Peledaen

[The6047]

I like the examples given of the balance for the Clan weapons. The clan mechs however, I believe will pose a real challenge.

Not being able to change armor, engine, upgrades is kinda rough. I can see why some of that is needed but I think the negatives outweigh the positives at this point. It is too early to tell, just my initial thoughts. Reson being is I forsee that after some hardpoints are swapped around you may be left with a mech with tonnage or slots left over or not needed as well as the upgrades.

What may help, love it or hate it, is going back to re-arm & repair with the clan mech costs 2x-3x higher. With this system added maybe we can have armor, heat sink, and jumpjet adjustments, something.

Overall I like where they are looking to take this but we really do need CW, UI, etc. first.

[Dymitry]

Whoever came up with this ideas must be 1) too lazy to think of something more refined 2) too blind to read countless better ideas already emerged from the community 3) probably is a freebirth. 4) Surely not warrior caste.

Edited by Dymitry, 18 December 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[Snoopy]

Dymitry, on 18 December 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Whoever came up with this ideas must be 1) too lazy to think of something more refined 2) too blind to read countless better ideas already emerged from the community 3) probably is a freebirth. 4) Surely not warrior caste.

Or just wants to cut development time/cost for PGI to the minimum.

Edited by Snoopy, 18 December 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Kontraxe]

I am a little dissapointed. So I take it that given some restrictions, CLAN mechs are going to be just like any other mechs. I then understand that the game will simply keep on being what it is and that no significant change is to come. So basicaly you're going to STILL have the same maps, same fights and there will only be more mechs, some of them being clan and some being ISS. Sharing items like for instance a ISS mech with clan tech type weapons on it.

This is unambitious and threatens the momentum of the game's development.

There is a real opportunity here to create something novel and engaging : DO NOT NERF STUFF IN ORDER TO INCLUDE CLAN MECHS. IT MAKES NO SENSE. SEPARATE CLAN PILOTS FROM ISS PILOTS.

There, simple. I heard PGI wants us to keep on grinding this game. So why not simply make a switch in the mechlab (trial mechs/ owned ISS mechs / owned CLAN mechs). A completely different Mech Pilot Tree and specific Mech trees. You are logged in CLAN mode, too bad, can't invite ISS mode pilots for a ranked match. In a regular match : 10 CLAN (2x5 units) VS 12 ISS (3x4 units).

You could always do custom deathmatch and drop whatever in private games. But in ranked matches, that would be the best way to keep the Clan's flavor intact, would settle all balance problems. It would be like races in other games, I mean you can drop protoss or terran. Your choice.

But no. This is too ambitious. If it ain't broken dont fix it. The game is profitable now as it is. Mission accomplished.

....

See there? Specifically my point. No ambition there and the game will be in geopardy within a year or so. I know wont pay for 240$ worth of other mechs. I would have paid 240$ to be part of the Clans, not to ride the pale imitation that i'm afraid this will be.

Of course, feel free to prove me wrong anytime.

[BigMooingCow]

Colddawg, on 18 December 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Why not have the $500 Khan Variant come along with the $210 clan package? You'd sell a lot more of them and then people can choose to upgrade to the $240. In the long run it will go a long way to win back some of the community.

Because PGI needs money to keep the doors open, and this pack is how they're funding the game's development. One thing they did right: realize that the fans that have shackled themselves to the game will buy anything, no matter the cost.

Since casual, and even long-time fans of BT are leaving the game, they're using those who they know will never leave to fund the entire game.

WoT, LoL, and every other well-run F2P have lots of cheap items available to buy. No single item will cost $200. MWO doesn't have enough users to get the economies of scale to fund PGI with $10 items, so they've thrown that out the window and are trying to sell many fewer packages, but for much more money.

$10 * 100K users = $1M
$240 * 4100 users = $1M

Which do you think MWO has a better chance of attracting? 4100 fanatics who will buy anything MW at any price, or 100,000 users, period? Does MWO even have 50,000 users?

To me, the cost of this pack and the distant promised date tells me PGI is flat broke, and needs cash fast. I'm sure they'd love to deliver all the vaporware they've sold this year before creating more vaporware, but the fact that they just piled on more promised content says to me that they're pretty far buried in costs.

Even if I wanted to buy these Clan mechs, I'm not optimistic that PGI can deliver everything they've promised before they run out of cash. That is, unless they sell a LOT of $500 gold mechs. Even 200 sales is $1M, after all. Are there 100 nutjobs in our community who must have both a gold Mad Cat and Diashi? Might be.

[keith]

pgi is herp a derping on clan tech. i think they are forgetting this is a FPS. the TT rule omni are stuck with X engine/ so muhc armor was (if i remember right) because all clan pilots were better then IS. in MWO that will not matter, anyone can hit the CT with a decent enough skill. giving half the clan mechs with half ct is a bad idea. anyway if they didn't change the ghost heat {Scrap} after many pages don't think they will change this, because PGI balance team is the bestest:P

[MisterPlanetarian]

10v12 is stupid for a lot of reasons. It's PVE style balancing. Boss battles don't belong in multiplayer PVP.

I'd rather see clan tech nerfed via heat, range and damage and let them keep the omni system as is, with the exception of armor values being unlocked.

Pauls approach is good but needs revisions when it comes down to the omnimech rules. Armor values have to be adjustable for all mechs. Clan lights can be slow, giving them all the option of 150+kph with the weightsavings on clan weapons makes them overpowered.

[Snoopy]

keith, on 18 December 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

the TT rule omni are stuck with X engine/ so muhc armor was (if i remember right) because all clan pilots were better then IS

The were not at all.

The kind of customization we have with the Mech Lab correspond to a full Mech factory re-design. I'm not aware that anything prevents Clan- or IS-Omnimechs from full Mech factory re-design. You are actually building a new Mech. It would only be extremely expensive.

[Fut]

Crimson Fenris, on 14 December 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

I've no clue about why PGI makes things more complicated, except to justify the humongous amount of time wasted into useless changes...

How to balance your game, quick and easy mode :

1. visit sarna.net
2. retrieve battle values of all things in the game
3. apply them to the matchmaker
4. enjoy people being satisfied by the natural balance between Clan and IS


ALL things had already been done by generations of gamers of the BT universe. Why in the world wouldn't you simply put some confidence in it and try it ?
Its the simplier way, especially considering such a small team as yours...


Two words : Battle Value

Hard to argue with this post.
Why isn't PGI using Battle Values for everything?

[SIN Deacon]

PGI is a think-tank of mindless fools that landed a good deal and are now out for gold. It's clear after following this game for two years that the main priority is how to keep the boat afloat, not producing proper content (Which would keep the boat afloat). So they figure if they release new packages (With zero content given, or having to be produced) it'll get a couple sales and they'll make some money. Then after they have finally finished most of the content and deliver said content, a brand new package will appear asking for more money again.

Terrible mech game, Terrible Developers (LAZY), Terrible Company, Terrible Everything. Till you guys decide to do something, my 30+ members in our unit won't be playing. Considering every single one of us had the founders 60+ founders pack, along with constantly purchasing MC on the side you will never see anyone of it again. I don't know where you ******** went wrong, whether it was listening to the community or you just like to fix/break **** for fun, but this game will NEVER be the same again. The only thing we can hope for now is that the ship sinks and microsoft decides to try to pick the garbage up and make something of it.