1978 replies to this topic

[MILESPARVUS]

Battlestar3k, on 19 December 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

U WONT BRING OUT A STARWARS GAME WHERE THE REBELS START WITH DEATHSTARS AND THE EMPIRE HAS TO START WITH UNCOSTUMIZABLE X-Wing

Interestingly enough, about that Star Wars game.......

Oddly enough, Imperials v Rebels is an interesting analogy for Clans v IS. Rebels have shields and greater firepower, Whereas Imperials are highly maneuverable and very fast. They play to different strengths, and require different styles of play. That's how I'm understanding PGI are trying to make Clans. Requiring different styles of play to be effective. That's also why I don't have much of a problem with Clans being out before CW is fully implemented, it'll give the Clanners some time to learn their mechs so they don't have to deal with a new system as well as new mechs that don't play the same as their other ones do. Of course, I could be completely wrong, but all we really have is speculation at this point.

Here however, people just want Clans to be completely superior, and make it assymetrical (and frankly, in my experience of TT, 10v12 is almost guaranteed Clan victory every time). I agree with 1Sascha, in a F2P model, that probably wont work. Back in the days of LAN and private matchers (or when PMs are enabled) that and concepts like Zellbrigen could be enforced, but in a public environment i can't see that working well at all.

As i said earlier, I'm interested to see how these ideas evolve, and I hope they keep sharing with us.

But, yeah, I'm excited for a new X-Wing v TIE Fighter game too. Though I'd probably start with Y-Wings, I love those hunks of junk.

[Unleashed3k]

Kiskatona, on 19 December 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Interestingly enough, about that Star Wars game.......

uhm, couldnt find the line where rebels get DS? Oh and why was 12is vs 10clan an 99% clanwin? of course, noobs played IS, skilled players were able to buy superior stuff for ingame currency and know how to handle their mech, put 12 noobs in a masakari and see them get shot but 8 pros in IS heavymechs.... noobs are noobs, learn aiming, learn ur mechmovent and the maps and its not a matter of mechs anymore, but most players are bored of current mechs, the ghostheat shitissue and non working srms. i see what the casual players bring into MWO... Crying and nerfing in the forums and kills and the battlefield, with a working ELO it wouldnt matter that casuals would need longer to save cbills for clanmechs, then we would play 12(3lances)pro clanner vs 16(4lances) IS pro's, all with maxxed mechs and a really fair chance for the omni IS mechs. Else always the same ****... currently its impossible to win if u got 8 ******** idiots on ur team...

[ssm]

Battlestar3k, on 19 December 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

uhm, couldnt find the line where rebels get DS? Oh and why was 12is vs 10clan an 99% clanwin? of course, noobs played IS, skilled players were able to buy superior stuff for ingame currency and know how to handle their mech, put 12 noobs in a masakari and see them get shot but 8 pros in IS heavymechs.... noobs are noobs, learn aiming, learn ur mechmovent and the maps and its not a matter of mechs anymore, but most players are bored of current mechs, the ghostheat shitissue and non working srms. i see what the casual players bring into MWO... Crying and nerfing in the forums and kills and the battlefield, with a working ELO it wouldnt matter that casuals would need longer to save cbills for clanmechs, then we would play 12(3lances)pro clanner vs 16(4lances) IS pro's, all with maxxed mechs and a really fair chance for the omni IS mechs. Else always the same ****... currently its impossible to win if u got 8 ******** idiots on ur team...

1) Game won't sustain itself without casuals, especially when a lot of them (given older playerbase) are actually avid BT/MW fans who just can't afford more than few matches a day.

2) 12 vs 16 won't even cut it close. Comparable, 9 vs 12 odds aren't extremely bad even now, with comparable tech on both sides.

Edited by ssm, 19 December 2013 - 06:15 AM.

[Sharknoms]

Kiskatona, on 19 December 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Interestingly enough, about that Star Wars game.......

Oddly enough, Imperials v Rebels is an interesting analogy for Clans v IS. Rebels have shields and greater firepower, Whereas Imperials are highly maneuverable and very fast. They play to different strengths, and require different styles of play. That's how I'm understanding PGI are trying to make Clans. Requiring different styles of play to be effective. That's also why I don't have much of a problem with Clans being out before CW is fully implemented, it'll give the Clanners some time to learn their mechs so they don't have to deal with a new system as well as new mechs that don't play the same as their other ones do. Of course, I could be completely wrong, but all we really have is speculation at this point.

Here however, people just want Clans to be completely superior, and make it assymetrical (and frankly, in my experience of TT, 10v12 is almost guaranteed Clan victory every time). I agree with 1Sascha, in a F2P model, that probably wont work. Back in the days of LAN and private matchers (or when PMs are enabled) that and concepts like Zellbrigen could be enforced, but in a public environment i can't see that working well at all.

As i said earlier, I'm interested to see how these ideas evolve, and I hope they keep sharing with us.

But, yeah, I'm excited for a new X-Wing v TIE Fighter game too. Though I'd probably start with Y-Wings, I love those hunks of junk.

Well theoreticlly why not make 2 stars (10 Clan Mechs) vs. 4 Lances (16 IS Mechs)?
Clans should be able to handle that with their Tech.

Oh and seriously? Y-Wing? The only true Rebelships are the A-Wing and the B-Wing.

Edited by Iguana Iguana, 19 December 2013 - 06:22 AM.

[MILESPARVUS]

Battlestar3k, on 19 December 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

uhm, couldnt find the line where rebels get DS? Oh and why was 12is vs 10clan an 99% clanwin?

Because Clan mechs outranges and outguns IS mechs with far superior damage potential, and superior target acquisition and lead computation equipment, which gives a boost to a Clanners already impressive base to hit roll. Your regular clanner is rolling numbers that a veteran IS pilot needs to roll, even better if the Clanner is a vet themselves. If straight TT values are used in MWO, and applying Clan targeting computers in some way (the most obvious manner being a lead indicator) It would have to be 5 v 12, and even then half decent Clan player would cause some serious damage

Iguana Iguana, on 19 December 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

Oh an seriously? Y-Wing? The only true Rebelships are the A-Wing and the B-Wing.

Hey, I liked Gold leader he was a cool guy.
Besides, I tend to like the underdog, I'd probably be one of the guys who's keep my IS mechs and use them if Clans were introduced like TT. Savour those sweet, sweet clan tears if I manage to kill one.

10v16 could work as well, it gives enough of a numerical advantage to the IS to stand a chance. But we still run up against the problem of asymmetrical teams perhaps not working in a public environment

Edited by Kiskatona, 19 December 2013 - 06:24 AM.

[ssm]

Kiskatona, on 19 December 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

Because Clan mechs outranges and outguns IS mechs with far superior damage potential, and superior target acquisition and lead computation equipment, which gives a boost to a Clanners already impressive base to hit roll. Your regular clanner is rolling numbers that a veteran IS pilot needs to roll, even better if the Clanner is a vet themselves. If straight TT values are used in MWO, and applying Clan targeting computers in some way (the most obvious manner being a lead indicator) It would have to be 5 v 12, and even then half decent Clan player would cause some serious damage

Not to mention that IS players would become simple cannon fodder, and who, besides roleplyers, would want to play IS if much more fun to play Clans would be simple alternative?

Enough to sustain six IS factions in CW? Most probably not.

[1Sascha]

Quote

Oh an seriously? Y-Wing? The only true Rebelships are the A-Wing and the B-Wing.

Neither of which were even in the first film. As far as I'm concerned, X- and Y-wings all the way.




S.

[Fut]

Mezlabor, on 18 December 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

BV makes it too hard for people to play what they want together. What happens when you get 12 guys in a guild who want to drop together and everyone wants to play a clan mech? Then they just can't? Some people are forced to play what they don't want to? BV will work in TT I don't think it will work in a pvp multiplayer game like this.

Here's the thing... No matter what's going to take place for CW, some people at some times will be "forced" into fielding a Mech that they don't entirely want to. Whether this comes from Weight Restrictions, Chassis Limits, or some sort of BattleValue - it's going to happen.

ssm, on 19 December 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Not to mention that IS players would become simple cannon fodder, and who, besides roleplyers, would want to play IS if much more fun to play Clans would be simple alternative?

Enough to sustain six IS factions in CW? Most probably not.

I'm still going to play IS regardless of how the Clan Mechs are implemented.
I've always found the Clan tech to be a bit goofy in a way, it's simply not for me.
Although, they do make for great enemies... So here's hoping that PGI does them the right way!

Edited by Fut, 19 December 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[syfy88man]

yes i agree, this is good info on clan tech and how you bring them to the game, Yes in the old mechwarrior 2 and 3, as soon as i got some clean tech, i was switching to them since they was better in a lot of ways than the inner spere mechs.I hope you can keep the balance in the game and not make it an pay to win, because then a lot of players would leave since it be unfair to the free to play players.

[BigMooingCow]

LOLing here about the Rebel Death Star. Dude's got a point; the analogy fits this situation pretty well. PGI is worried about the clans being stronger than the IS. Let me rephrase that to highlight the lunacy:

PGI doesn't want Clans to be more powerful than the IS.

Does anybody at PGI understand what the Battletech universe is, or have they just looked up a few mechs on Sarna and figured they should plop a bunch of them in a game like Pokemon?

There's some rich fiction in the BT universe, and it's being blown to hell in MWO.

1Sascha, on 19 December 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Since we'll probably never know how many active players there are in this game (as per usual in most MMOs), this is all speculation anyway.

But: Usually you'll sell more of anything at a low/medium price than at a "holy smokes! this is insane"-price. Plus we're not talking $10 per pack as the ideal price-point here - that would indeed be too low, considering the prices of IS-hero-Mechs (even when they are on sale). It's more like $80 - $90 for the "sweetspot"-deal. Which, from a highly subjective POV seems indeed like the sweetspot, considering how many Overlord-icons I'm seeing here on the forum and how many Overlord-owners I've seen in-game since October.

And I don't care how people try to justify this by breaking it down to the $/Mech-price (which is BTW still higher than in the Phoenix-pack). What matters most here are the *total* amounts they're asking for, which are well beyond the "oh, it's not really cheap, but I can still live with that price"-threshold.

Agreed. And it's not like PGI doesn't know this, too. So the only reason for $240-$500 "content promise packs" is because PGI feels they don't have enough users that "sweet spot" pricing will keep their doors open.

Kanis Maximus, on 18 December 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

Yup, great idea, slot sizes... suggestion present in these forums since closed beta... and always ignored by PGI...

See now piggy? See why it was a good idea? What? Too late now to change the mechlab functionality? oh noes...

There's a great example that highlights the problem. Not only do customers WANT slot sizes, but they would neatly solve many balance problems (ie: K2 gausscat). Not only that, but there's a template for this exact system, in MW4's slot system!

Despite slot sizes being the Easy way, the Right way, and half-designed already, PGI arrogance wins the day, and we're stuck with the broken system we have now, with systems like ghost heat layered on top to band-aid the poor design.

The crux of the problem? PGI cannot admit they are wrong, and PGI does not build the game that their customers want. It is only due to the strength of the Battletech universe fiction that ANY of us are still here. If PGI didn't have the BT IP, there would be ZERO people playing MWO today.

We're all suckers for BT, and that's why PGI has way more of our cash than they deserve, and why there is a 60+ page thread arguing about the balancing of a laser in a video game.

Hell, I've already decided I'm done with MWO for good, and I can't tear myself away from this thread. BT is a strong pull.

[BlackMoore]

Helmer, on 14 December 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Just a reminder, this is feedback on the Clan Technology - a design Perspective post. Let's please use this thread on feedback regarding the design ideas contained there and use the other Feedback posts for their intended purposes ( I.E. Clan Collections - Feedback )

No need to cross the streams.... you never want to cross the streams Egon.



Cheers.

Finally! Thank you for the "transparency". Being kept in the dark generates unrest among the masses. This truly is good to see. Keep us informed of the good AND the bad. It helps us to understand why there may be delays in the release of content if there is at least a release of info as to why.

I personally would like to know why CW was not worked on and out to us by spring or summer and THEN focus on clan tech balance issues as the community happily fought over planets. The Mech battles are the "meat and potatoes" but the community warfare is the game.That is after all how it happened right? The I.S. was not looking out waiting for the clans. They were looking in at each other.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for the look behind the curtain and please continue this line of dialog with your community.

[Masterzinja]

Russ Bullock, on 16 December 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

In each case you get the two free variants to go along with the Prime variants making an overlord package $80 or $20 per prime variant. With the Clan packages you are paying what equates to $30 per prime variant. But remember our pricing of MC in MWO has a relationship between MC and CB costs. Clan Technology is significantly more expensive, and is reflected in the package pricing.

So clan technology is going to be significantly more expensive, that's why we're paying more for the packages, and we can expect to pay more in c-bills for it as well.

Niko Snow, on 14 December 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Clan Technology in the BT universe has always been an over-powered set of weapons and BattleMech builds. This encourages an arms race to get to Clan Tech equipment and makes Inner Sphere Tech rather obsolete. This is something we do not want to see in MechWarrior Online and we have decided to take some heavy hitting steps to make sure that this arms race does not come to fruition.

*deep breath* Basically they are planning on making the stuff equivalent to IS technology for balance purposes. So uh, why the "significantly more expensive" route? This kind of double talk leads me to suspect that they don't really have a good plan for clan tech at all. It's far too early for them to be setting prices for Clan tech when their promises to balance it clearly conflicts with their own pricing structure. Marketing/sales needs to sit down with game design and have a long discussion with the very real possibility of rebuilding the entire Clan package or else scrapping the balance issue. People are going to be furious if they discover they paid extra for something that one guy promised would justify the increased cost, while another guy was busy making sure it didn't.

Edited by Masterzinja, 19 December 2013 - 07:43 AM.

[F1restarter]

Lots of folk stating that some of the corrections to everything would be CW2.0, new UI, etc etc etc... all the broken promises and trail of tears that PGIs been telling us for many many months. My current set of issues with the game and why I currently don't play, to include stuff upcoming with the clan release:
Ghost heat - you couldn't balance weapons, so you just made things hot. Great.
Pop tarting - still an issue - just let go of the jj's before you want to shoot, reticle goes back to normal
no new maps
Broken timeline/broken promises of delivery of maps, cw, etc.
Broken LRM/SRM damage/heat (again, ghost heat) - 4x SRM6s on target should decimate something... that's the whole idea of putting dumb guided missiles on board. Not simply scratch armor and make me overheat.

Clan issues: You're still not fixing the ghost heat and now you're going to ruin multiple facets of lore by making everything a streak 2. Great plan.
$500 for a freaking paint job? Sorry - you don't get any more hookers and blow in Vegas off my money. Thanks, but no.
$240 for the clan pack? Nope - sorry, you swindled me for founders and PP, but again, no more hookers and blow in Vegas off my money.
Sad, sad day when I'm honestly ashamed to have a founders and overlord tag.

[JTAlweezy]

just too greedy to ask this of your players. Its a free to play game, and those that pay are paving the way for those who don't. But how about you pay respect to your founders who gave you that initial pool of funds. You trying to make as much as Activision or other companies? It wont happen, your fan base is too small and your doing things that are only causing it to drop in size. Hence why you removed server stats from the main page.

[Sandpit]

this thread stopped being pertinent 50 pages ago.


bacon

[JTAlweezy]

official statement, never to follow.

[Wolfways]

BigMooingCow, on 19 December 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

The crux of the problem? PGI cannot admit they are wrong, and PGI does not build the game that their customers want. It is only due to the strength of the Battletech universe fiction that ANY of us are still here. If PGI didn't have the BT IP, there would be ZERO people playing MWO today.

We're all suckers for BT, and that's why PGI has way more of our cash than they deserve, and why there is a 60+ page thread arguing about the balancing of a laser in a video game.

Hell, I've already decided I'm done with MWO for good, and I can't tear myself away from this thread. BT is a strong pull.

I can't really agree with this, but i do agree that PGI cannot admit when they are wrong (or just don't understand why).

I started playing MWO because i like BT. I only had a few TT games a long time ago and owned a few of the books, and only played one of the MW games (MW2 i think) and Mechcommander, so i don't consider myself a fan, but i was into the BT/MW universe.
It is because of the lore and fiction that i started playing MWO. It's also the reason i've basically stopped playing. PGI have changed so much of the original game (i.e. how systems/equipment worked) that i find it laughable that they say they are big BT fans. If you are a fan you don't change everything!
Want to know how much fans like it when you mess with something? Ask George Lucas.

I no longer think of MWO as a BT game. It's just big robots to me now.
I started to lose interest recently to the point where i was only playing a match or two a day, but since the release of the clan info i just can't be bothered anymore. The only thing that gets me to play now is if my wife wants me to have a match with her (so she can try out her PP mechs, which she wishes she hadn't bought). Otherwise i don't see myself playing in the future other than to check out something new that looks interesting (assuming i ever see something good on the website).

Full customization of IS mechs was bad enough, but then add limited customization to clan mechs? Yeah..PGI are real fans of BT...

[Lysander Voidrunner]

I see a lot of proposals for different solutions to the implementation of the clans.

Some go all out and say that the clans should be nerfed to IS status. Yes, that would be "fair" for everyone. That, however, would put the clans at a massive disadvantage as they invade. They would, ultimately, hit a brick wall the second they invade the Inner Sphere. Why? It's simple, they would be no different than a faction but with far less territory to support their operations and far less room to manouver. The way the story says that the Clans came and simply burst through and into the heart of the IS would be impossible. At least, without outside tampering by PGI or by grouping all the best pilots in MWO into the clans only to give them an overwhelming advantage in skills and tactics.

On the other hand, there are purists who say want everything to be as was in the tabletop rulebook. I have to admit, I would love it to be so, that being said, the tabletop rules never accounted for territorial losses and gains, they were only concerned with the actual fights. So in my opinion, leaving the clans as an overpowered hostile freight train would spell disaster for the whole Inner Sphere. Case in point, Clan Smoke Jaguar (the competitive team). Does anyone doubt that they would be a clan once they can declare themselves, in MWO, to be a clan? No, also, they routinely savage some good teams with terrifying ease using IS technology. Give them a permanent advantage and the whole of the IS is set to fall very quick. Granted, not all the teams that will be clans will be as good as them, but quite a few are and given a permanent technological advantage, it would be hard to overcome.

My proposal, to feed the wolf and the safegard the sheep, so to speak, is to simply introduce the clans as they are supposed to be, overpowered with every victory against the clans giving the winners clan tech as salvage. Once enough of that is spread out, and possibly mechs too, you can start introducing 12v12 clans vs IS. Still tough for IS but not unwinnable at that point. Again, after a certain amount of time passes, you give the IS access to clan mechs via the mechlab for Cbills and not just relying on a possible salvage chance.

This would allow the clans to penetrate deep into the IS, give them the initial advantage and allow the Inner Sphere to be gradually more and more of a real challenge against the clans. In the end, the purists would have their clan tech, the "fair play" crowd would have their balance and the story would be preserved.

[Ketzktl]

Riptor, on 14 December 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

...
Also none of these clan mechs have ECM... you can kiss those fancy Streaks goodbye
...

Clan Electronic equipment is modular. Technically any clan mech can install ECM or BAP. And on top of that CLAN ECM and BAP have better range than IS versions.

Clan JJ are modular as well, any mech can have Jump capability.

[Jacmac]

Lysander Voidrunner, on 19 December 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Some go all out and say that the clans should be nerfed to IS status. Yes, that would be "fair" for everyone. That, however, would put the clans at a massive disadvantage as they invade. They would, ultimately, hit a brick wall the second they invade the Inner Sphere.

Let me get this straight, you think there will be a clan invasion in MWO? When? 2020?