168 replies to this topic

[TibsVT]

Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Silence Jin Mang, on 01 January 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Vanguard, almost all of us vote nay, we are just trying to help him establish a backstory to his group. I will never see him as a clanner, but he can redeem himself by proving himself, like any bondsman and freebirth. If he does this, I will hold him with some measure of respect, that is all we can give him, and it is what I will give if he proves himself.

The problem is it is a repeating cycle. He makes wild statements that are proven to be erroneous, he says he will do research yet here he is again spouting more nonsense that can clearly be disproved by the lore. Saying you are going to do something & actually doing it are two different things.

[Silence Jin Mang]

Which is why I never said I gave it too him already. I have not seen him prove himself to me, and therefore he does not have an ounce of my respect. If he actually commits to this and does it, then I`ll give him my respect. To a point.

[Uncle Totty]

Strum Wealh, on 01 January 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

...the IS rose up in unity and refused both the Warden and Crusader causes.

WHAT? You do know they were aided by two Warden Clans (Nova Cat, Wolf-in-Exile) right? The IS didn't refuse the Warden cause, they welcomed it. The only ones refusing them are the kill-all-them-Clanners Crazies.

[Strum Wealh]

Nathan K, on 02 January 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

WHAT? You do know they were aided by two Warden Clans (Nova Cat, Wolf-in-Exile) right? The IS didn't refuse the Warden cause, they welcomed it. The only ones refusing them are the kill-all-them-Clanners Crazies.

The SLDF didn't so much "welcome the Warden cause" as accept the assistance of those particular Clansmen against a common foe.

Note that the point of the SLDF expedition was, as Victor Steiner-Davion said to the Clans' Grand Council following the Great Refusal, "not to impose our [that is, the IS powers'] way of life upon you [that is, the Clans], but to stop you from attempting to impose your way of life on us" (quotation from pg. 25 of The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky) - which applies just as much to the Wardens as to the Crusaders.

Moreover...

"The invasion has ended, but not so our contact and our futures. There are countless individuals in the Inner Sphere who have learned to hate you, but we do not intend to prosecute a war against you--at least, not as the Star League. As the Star League, we invite you back to the Inner Sphere, to allow your people and ours to become acquainted. We have things to offer you, as you have to offer us. Beneath this umbrella of peace there are many new possibilities. We invite you to explore them." - Prince Victor Steiner-Davion in the Hall of Khans (Warriors of Kerensky, pg. 25)

"... the SLDF would take 'swift and devastating retribution' against any future Clan adventurism" - paraphrasing of Victor Steiner-Davion's response to Vladimir Ward's threat of Clan Wolf renewing the Invasion on their own following the expiry of the Truce of Tukayyid (Warriors of Kerensky, pg. 26)

The Clans were even offered the opportunity to join the Star League as members... but on the Star League's terms, not those of the Clans.

However, this does not change that the IS, via the SLDF expedition, collectively declined to yield to the governance of the Clans, be they Warden or Crusader.

[Gremlich Johns]

Imperius, on 01 January 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Sorry but according to PGI none of you are clan wardens and none of you have the right to tell anyone if they are clan or not. So have fun trying to take the names of the so called clans you claim you own. They are already banned and used by PGI. I'll take pleasure in wiping you guys out one planet at a time. I play to win not to follow the rules of RP.

Actually, Niko Snow did in the main post of this thread section. he outlined the canon Clans within MW:O

Unless I am totally illiterate, Clan (insert player-created_name_here) is not acceptable and we, as long time Clan-centric players have the responsibility to tell someone if they are doing it wrong.

Most times, all of us "Clan-centric" players are pretty reasonable when telling someone "umm, No!" when they want bring in their pseudo Clan "whatever". Like suggesting resources to look up to get informed about the Clans so they can make better life choices. This is BT/MW - there is only the canon when it comes to the Clans - not what you, the uninformed, want. (Veruka Salt anyone?)

But, no, you have to be {Richard Camerons} about it. Frankly, some of you seem really 14 years old about it and we wish you would stop.

BTW, I am glad Marock has decided to be more rational about the matter. Some of us take this seriously and extreme deviations from the Canon bother us. (minor we can handle provided there is a rational and logical argument to do it)

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 02 January 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

Silence Jin Mang, on 01 January 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Vanguard, almost all of us vote nay, we are just trying to help him establish a backstory to his group. I will never see him as a clanner, but he can redeem himself by proving himself, like any bondsman and freebirth. If he does this, I will hold him with some measure of respect, that is all we can give him, and it is what I will give if he proves himself.

as most Clans did when faced with deserving IS units

[Uncle Totty]

Strum Wealh, on 02 January 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

The SLDF didn't so much "welcome the Warden cause" as accept the assistance of those particular Clansmen against a common foe.

Note that the point of the SLDF expedition was, as Victor Steiner-Davion said to the Clans' Grand Council following the Great Refusal, "not to impose our [that is, the IS powers'] way of life upon you [that is, the Clans], but to stop you from attempting to impose your way of life on us" (quotation from pg. 25 of The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky) - which applies just as much to the Wardens as to the Crusaders.

What are you talking about. The Warden Clans were fighting for that same thing. (To keep the Clans out of the IS.) How do you oppose an idea you share?

Also, Clan Nova Cat became a full on SLDF member. And fought for the IS during the Great Refusal.

[TibsVT]

Dark Caste seems the logical canon way to go about your dilemma however that still leaves you with the prospect of theoretical annihilation. Though PGI themselves have made it quite clear that for now there will only be four of the Clans.

To be fair though the outbreak was to be expected. Quite a few of us take the Clan deal quite seriously (yes, myself included) and given that your original statement was a reworded version of what got the Not-named-clan annihilated it came as no surprise followers of three Crusader Clans and the Clan who holds the Kerensky bloodname would react in such a manner. You did basically give all of us the verbal finger with that opening speech of yours.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Strum Wealh, on 02 January 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

The SLDF didn't so much "welcome the Warden cause" as accept the assistance of those particular Clansmen against a common foe.

Note that the point of the SLDF expedition was, as Victor Steiner-Davion said to the Clans' Grand Council following the Great Refusal, "not to impose our [that is, the IS powers'] way of life upon you [that is, the Clans], but to stop you from attempting to impose your way of life on us" (quotation from pg. 25 of The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky) - which applies just as much to the Wardens as to the Crusaders.

Moreover...

"The invasion has ended, but not so our contact and our futures. There are countless individuals in the Inner Sphere who have learned to hate you, but we do not intend to prosecute a war against you--at least, not as the Star League. As the Star League, we invite you back to the Inner Sphere, to allow your people and ours to become acquainted. We have things to offer you, as you have to offer us. Beneath this umbrella of peace there are many new possibilities. We invite you to explore them." - Prince Victor Steiner-Davion in the Hall of Khans (Warriors of Kerensky, pg. 25)

"... the SLDF would take 'swift and devastating retribution' against any future Clan adventurism" - paraphrasing of Victor Steiner-Davion's response to Vladimir Ward's threat of Clan Wolf renewing the Invasion on their own following the expiry of the Truce of Tukayyid (Warriors of Kerensky, pg. 26)

The Clans were even offered the opportunity to join the Star League as members... but on the Star League's terms, not those of the Clans.

However, this does not change that the IS, via the SLDF expedition, collectively declined to yield to the governance of the Clans, be they Warden or Crusader.

Yet still for all that grandstanding, Victor & the rest of the IS tucked their surat tails between their legs, when Vlad roared in & demanded the release of Katherine Steiner with the threat of war if they refused, LIKE A BOSS! All that tough talk went out the window & they backed down for ONE Clan, not even a unified invasion. That man is my hero.

Nathan K, on 02 January 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

WHAT? You do know they were aided by two Warden Clans (Nova Cat, Wolf-in-Exile) right? The IS didn't refuse the Warden cause, they welcomed it. The only ones refusing them are the kill-all-them-Clanners Crazies.

Overall yes, but generally, no. Remember that the Wardens still conquered planets, seized assets, infrastructure & supplies & killed IS troops. They held on to those planets after Tukayyid. Whatever their beliefs, they were still invaders. A lot of people did not care about an individual Clan's political stance, they were all the enemy.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 03 January 2014 - 03:41 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jaroth Corbett, on 03 January 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

Yet still for all that grandstanding, Victor & the rest of the IS tucked their surat tails between their legs, when Vlad roared in & demanded the release of Katherine Steiner with the threat of war if they refused, LIKE A BOSS! All that tough talk went out the window & they backed down for ONE Clan, not even a unified invasion. That man is my hero.

Vic was just going to lock his sis up and throw away the key. Vlad offered a better solution. Make her a warrior! Make here EARN her credentials!

Sure Vic didn't know that Vlad had been bitten by the love bug and wanted his sis for personal reasons. In that moment Vlad showed just how Whipped he was!

[Strum Wealh]

Jaroth Corbett, on 03 January 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

Yet still for all that grandstanding, Victor & the rest of the IS tucked their surat tails between their legs, when Vlad roared in & demanded the release of Katherine Steiner with the threat of war if they refused, LIKE A BOSS! All that tough talk went out the window & they backed down for ONE Clan, not even a unified invasion. That man is my hero.

Except that the exchange was hardly so "boss-like" on Vlad's part, nor were either Victor or Phelan (the parties present) so cowed as you seem to think.

"I wasn't aware that we had business to discuss," Victor said, catching Vlad's smirk of superiority at Victor's use of a contraction. By Clan thinking, such was the sign of a lazy mind.

"There is no need for much discussion. I am here to take possession of your prisoner."

"You are challenging me for Katherine?" Victor's mind spun, trying to sort out why a Clan khan would ever care about his sister's fall from power.

"Challenging? Aff." Vlad seemed quite ready for such an idea. "If that is your preference." His dark eyes moved from Victor back to Katherine.

Victor sensed the unspoken conjunction, and voiced it himself. "Or?"

"War," Vlad promised. "I warned you once before that my Wolves were not bound by the Great Refusal, but that we would honor the Truce of Tukayyid. That truce expired in May of this year. Are you ready to speak for your former nations, to send them back to battle so quickly?" he asked. "I am."

Victor glanced quickly at the others in the room. Phelan looked ready to fight, but then he always did. Morgan waited with stoic neutrality. Victor turned back to Vlad. "You're promising that, in exchange for Katherine, we buy peace?"

"I promise nothing but to attack if you do not give me what I came to acquire. Do you believe this, Victor Davion, or not?"

Victor did. He did not need Phelan's none-too-subtle nod to believe that Vlad would do just as he said. It was also not lost on him that he had given his word to the First Circuit that he would not meddle outside of ComStar business, and Katherine's incarceration on Arc-Royal definitely fell in that domain. Even if it could be construed as a ComStar affair because of Vlad's reference to the Tukayyid truce, Victor could not push Yvonne and Peter into a new war when there was any possible recourse. Without knowing it, Vlad had him backed against a very tricky wall.

"Aff, I believe you," Victor said with a shrug. "Take her, then." He discreetly watched Katherine's face as he acquiesced, saw the flicker of triumph that brightened her eyes. What had she been up to that Vlad would come for her? He might never know. "If she's your prize, Vlad, take her and welcome to it. You made a good deal today."

The barb stuck as Victor all but accused the Wolf khan of acting like a merchant, a subtlety not lost on Vlad, who flushed with dark anger. But the Clan warrior had this day's goal, and so he forced a challenging smile to let Victor know that the comment was ignored, for now, but not forgotten.

As precentor martial, Victor would not have it any other way.

- Endgame, epilogue (viewable here)

The situation was more of "If you want her, and all the baggage that entails, then here - we'll give her to you. Enjoy your purchase, and good riddance to both of you! "

In fact, the emphasized portion of that passage looks like Victor met Vlad's little "roar" with one of his own, and managed to leave the Wolf khan without an easy means of retort to boot.

Jaroth Corbett, on 03 January 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

Overall yes, but generally, no. Remember that the Wardens still conquered planets, seized assets, infrastructure & supplies & killed IS troops. They held on to those planets after Tukayyid. Whatever their beliefs, they were still invaders. A lot of people did not care about an individual Clan's political stance, they were all the enemy.

That too (in addition to the typical Clan hypocrisy ).

Quote

On top of that, the Clans' "Political Century" is so named, because the name is apt - and the actions of many during that period show that the Clans, both as individuals and as groups, are not above the very backstabbing and power games that they claim to be above, up to & including the wanton murder of civilians and the razing of a city via orbital bombardment.
Even before Turtle Bay, it turns out that the Snow Ravens had bombarded their own capital city (containing the genetic repository) on Dehra Dun from orbit, rather than it being nuked by the Wolverines (where the latter was then blamed for nuking the city, as a matter of political expediency & convenience for both the Snow Ravens and for Nicholas Kerensky; see Betrayal of Ideals by Blaine Lee Pardoe).
So much for "Clan honor"...

[Strum Wealh]

Nathan K, on 02 January 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

What are you talking about. The Warden Clans were fighting for that same thing. (To keep the Clans out of the IS.) How do you oppose an idea you share?

As noted previously, the belief that the Wardens in general, as evidenced by the reaction of the Clans in general - and Clan Wolf, the long-time head of the Warden movement, in particular - to Victor's address following the Great Refusal (that is, that the Wardens turned just as much of a deaf ear as the Crusaders), would have descended into the same madness and lust for power that overcame the administrators of the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment... and that, in BT, resulted in the greater part of Clan Wolf becoming Crusaders.

"The Wardens are no better [than the Crusaders] - they speak of 'serving and protecting', but they would in actuality make a "Stanford Prison Experiment writ large" out of the Inner Sphere, with themselves (of course!) taking the role of the 'wardens' overseeing the guilded cage that would be the Inner Sphere in a Warden-dominated world."

Nathan K, on 02 January 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Also, Clan Nova Cat became a full on SLDF member. And fought for the IS during the Great Refusal.

The Nova Cat Touman became part of the SLDF via a series of mock-Trials that made them "abtakha" with regard to the SLDF expedition.
The Nova Cats ultimately became a protectorate of the Draconis Combine, governing the Irece Prefecture in the name of the Coordinator (see pgs. 93-94 of Shattered Sphere), with their membership in the Star League merely being a function of the membership of their sponsor.
Also, note that, ultimately, neither the Nova Cats nor any other Clan had a seat at any of the Whitting Conferences.

[CyclonerM]

Strum Wealh, on 02 January 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

"The Wardens are no better [than the Crusaders] - they speak of 'serving and protecting', but they would in actuality make a "Stanford Prison Experiment writ large" out of the Inner Sphere, with themselves (of course!) taking the role of the 'wardens' overseeing the guilded cage that would be the Inner Sphere in a Warden-dominated world."

Are you referring to the single city owned by Clan Wolf-in-Exile on Arc-Royal? Is it your definition of a "Warden-dominated world"?

Quote

Also, note that, ultimately, neither the Nova Cats nor any other Clan had a seat at any of the Whitting Conferences.

Well, this is not entirely true. Phelan Kell was invited as leader of the ARDC togheter with Morgan Kell.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Strum Wealh, on 03 January 2014 - 05:15 AM, said:

Except that the exchange was hardly so "boss-like" on Vlad's part, nor were either Victor or Phelan (the parties present) so cowed as you seem to think.

"I wasn't aware that we had business to discuss," Victor said, catching Vlad's smirk of superiority at Victor's use of a contraction. By Clan thinking, such was the sign of a lazy mind.

"There is no need for much discussion. I am here to take possession of your prisoner."

"You are challenging me for Katherine?" Victor's mind spun, trying to sort out why a Clan khan would ever care about his sister's fall from power.

"Challenging? Aff." Vlad seemed quite ready for such an idea. "If that is your preference." His dark eyes moved from Victor back to Katherine.

Victor sensed the unspoken conjunction, and voiced it himself. "Or?"

"War," Vlad promised. "I warned you once before that my Wolves were not bound by the Great Refusal, but that we would honor the Truce of Tukayyid. That truce expired in May of this year. Are you ready to speak for your former nations, to send them back to battle so quickly?" he asked. "I am."

Victor glanced quickly at the others in the room. Phelan looked ready to fight, but then he always did. Morgan waited with stoic neutrality. Victor turned back to Vlad. "You're promising that, in exchange for Katherine, we buy peace?"

"I promise nothing but to attack if you do not give me what I came to acquire. Do you believe this, Victor Davion, or not?"

Victor did. He did not need Phelan's none-too-subtle nod to believe that Vlad would do just as he said. It was also not lost on him that he had given his word to the First Circuit that he would not meddle outside of ComStar business, and Katherine's incarceration on Arc-Royal definitely fell in that domain. Even if it could be construed as a ComStar affair because of Vlad's reference to the Tukayyid truce, Victor could not push Yvonne and Peter into a new war when there was any possible recourse. Without knowing it, Vlad had him backed against a very tricky wall.

"Aff, I believe you," Victor said with a shrug. "Take her, then." He discreetly watched Katherine's face as he acquiesced, saw the flicker of triumph that brightened her eyes. What had she been up to that Vlad would come for her? He might never know. "If she's your prize, Vlad, take her and welcome to it. You made a good deal today."

The barb stuck as Victor all but accused the Wolf khan of acting like a merchant, a subtlety not lost on Vlad, who flushed with dark anger. But the Clan warrior had this day's goal, and so he forced a challenging smile to let Victor know that the comment was ignored, for now, but not forgotten.

As precentor martial, Victor would not have it any other way.

- Endgame, epilogue (viewable here)

The situation was more of "If you want her, and all the baggage that entails, then here - we'll give her to you. Enjoy your purchase, and good riddance to both of you! "

In fact, the emphasized portion of that passage looks like Victor met Vlad's little "roar" with one of his own, and managed to leave the Wolf khan without an easy means of retort to boot.


That too (in addition to the typical Clan hypocrisy ).

The situation was:

Quote

War," Vlad promised. "I warned you once before that my Wolves were not bound by the Great Refusal, but that we would honor the Truce of Tukayyid. That truce expired in May of this year. Are you ready to speak for your former nations, to send them back to battle so quickly?" he asked. "I am."

Victor glanced quickly at the others in the room. Phelan looked ready to fight, but then he always did. Morgan waited with stoic neutrality. Victor turned back to Vlad. "You're promising that, in exchange for Katherine, we buy peace?"

"I promise nothing but to attack if you do not give me what I came to acquire. Do you believe this, Victor Davion, or not?"

Victor did. He did not need Phelan's none-too-subtle nod to believe that Vlad would do just as he said. It was also not lost on him that he had given his word to the First Circuit that he would not meddle outside of ComStar business, and Katherine's incarceration on Arc-Royal definitely fell in that domain. Even if it could be construed as a ComStar affair because of Vlad's reference to the Tukayyid truce, Victor could not push Yvonne and Peter into a new war when there was any possible recourse. Without knowing it, Vlad had him backed against a very tricky wall.

The facts are Victor went from "RAAAARR we big bad SLDF, you not threaten or we crush you." to LITTLE *****. Nothing you say will change that.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jaroth Corbett, on 03 January 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

The situation was:
[/indent]

The facts are Victor went from "RAAAARR we big bad SLDF, you not threaten or we crush you." to LITTLE *****. Nothing you say will change that.

Just so long as you admit Vlad is whipped by Kathrine's kitty!

[FireSlade]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

Just so long as you admit Vlad is whipped by Kathrine's kitty!

I never liked Vlad Ward. I always thought of him as corrupt and bedding Katherine was proof of his corruption. Also @Strum Weahl, the Clans are not hypocrites as far as the Wardens go. Clan Wolf was comprised up of Wardens and Crusaders and when Phelan Kell left Clan space he took with him a large portion of Wardens leaving the Crusaders in charge of Clan Wolf. On top of that the Great Refusal War against the Jade Falcons eradicated what was left of the Wardens and when Clan Wolf reformed they were Crusaders. If you look at the other Clans that were not split as Clan Wolf and were true Wardens you will see a different stance and even living with the people of the Innersphere. Clan Ghost Bears for example.

[CyclonerM]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

Just so long as you admit Vlad is whipped by Kathrine's kitty!

What i can say.. Evil always goes with evil..

[pbiggz]

CyclonerM, on 03 January 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

What i can say.. Evil always goes with evil..

WE FOUND A WITCH MAY WE BURN 'ER?

[CyclonerM]

pbiggz, on 03 January 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

WE FOUND A WITCH MAY WE BURN 'ER?

With an extreme pleasure.