172 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

I generally have 3-4

I only have three on my atlas/highlander/victor.

One for PPCs. One for Autocannons. And one for Streaks. lol.

[Joseph Mallan]

LastPaladin, on 17 January 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

I want the "oscillation overthruster" from Buckaroo Banzai so my mech can pass through mountains and buildings. BB was a character in BT novels, so at least it could be quasi-canonical

All my years of BattleTech lore and I did not know Dr Bonzai's first name was B.!

[LastPaladin]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 January 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

All my years of BattleTech lore and I did not know Dr Bonzai's first name was B.!

Yeah, I think they avoided using the "Buckaroo" so as not to get sued, but that's who the character is supposed to be.

[Joseph Mallan]

LastPaladin, on 17 January 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Yeah, I think they avoided using the "Buckaroo" so as not to get sued, but that's who the character is supposed to be.

LOL an here I was just assuming that was who... Now we really know why The Unseen was used... Originality was not FASA's strong suit!

[Prezimonto]

Why do I feel like every thread I read has the same 10 people who supply reasonable data and reasoning based on logic, arguing with the same 10 people who are enjoying the stale meta, and then Roadbeer and Sandpit who just troll anyone daring enough to start a new thread rather than add on to ancient posts that no one reads, have no curation to keep ideas centrally located, and have obviously been largely ignored?

Edited by Prezimonto, 17 January 2014 - 12:01 PM.

[LastPaladin]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 January 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

LOL an here I was just assuming that was who... Now we really know why The Unseen was used... Originality was not FASA's strong suit!

You know, my memory is shot, but I think they actually did mention his name as "Dr. Buckaroo Banzai" in one technical readout entry, I think, but not in the novels.

[xhrit]

colsan, on 15 January 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

You need to give up the illusion that this is a sci-fi game; it is fantasy, and ECM is magic. We just need new "magic" items to compensate.

I want an energy shield and a heal laser.... like in Metaltech : Starsiege

[Joseph Mallan]

LastPaladin, on 17 January 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

You know, my memory is shot, but I think they actually did mention his name as "Dr. Buckaroo Banzai" in one technical readout entry, I think, but not in the novels.

Possibly, But I have done a lot of reading in 30 years!

[DocBach]

Prezimonto, on 17 January 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Why I feel like every threat I read has the same 10 people who supply reasonable data and reasoning based on logic, arguing with the same 10 people who are enjoying the stale meta, and then Roadbeer and Sandpit who just troll anyone daring enough to start a new thread rather than add on to ancient posts that no one reads, have no curation to keep ideas centrally located, and have obviously been largely ignored?

you feel that way because that's exactly what happens

[Prezimonto]

DocBach, on 17 January 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

you feel that way because that's exactly what happens

Oh well silly me. For a moment there I must have forgotten and enjoyed hope that participating in feedback might somehow lead to improvements in a game I love.

[Deathlike]

Prezimonto, on 17 January 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Oh well silly me. For a moment there I must have forgotten and enjoyed hope that participating in feedback might somehow lead to improvements in a game I love.

*insert obligatory suggestion box pic here, with the PGI logo plastered on it*

[Roadbeer]

Prezimonto, on 17 January 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Oh well silly me. For a moment there I must have forgotten and enjoyed hope that participating in feedback might somehow lead to improvements in a game I love.

That ship sailed.... long ago.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Prezimonto, on 17 January 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Oh well silly me. For a moment there I must have forgotten and enjoyed hope that participating in feedback might somehow lead to improvements in a game I love.

Nope, as the saying goes - Abandon hope all ye who enter here.

[Solis Obscuri]

Lykaon, on 16 January 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

If this is what you think you are doing it wrong.

Having 5 mechs that can use an ECM is of no concern as long as they are used (and they are) It's not as if before we launch into a match we get our choice of mech randomized.We pick our rides and players do pick ECM mechs frequently enough that most of my games ECM is a factor.

ECM with reduced hitpoints is not what I call a big effect in the grand scheme of MWO.Most of the ECM mechs are small evasive targets that if their side torso is breached it is also very likely they are dead on the next hit.Seriously how many times has your Raven 3L been alive and well with a disabled ECM on board?


Now here is the reality of all of those "counters".

BAP has a monkey version of an ECM feature.ECM counters ECM at 180m BAP gets 150m.ECM is a superior counter to ECM because of this.

PPC vs ECM? Well first you need to see the ECM to hit it.The ECM doesn't require line of sight to provide it's bubble of awesome to every friendly mech within 180m of it.If the enemy is hitting you with PPCs frequently enough to actually cause a loss in ECM cover long enough to make a difference you are doing it wrong.Most of the time a lucky shot may land (4 out of 5 ECM mechs are fast and small) and interupt ECM cover for 4 seconds.

Second ONE,LRM mech locates a target,TWO LRM mech starts to lock,THREE LRM mech has fired,FOUR LRMS are in flight Five ECM is back on line SIX LRMs miss.

Actual effectivness of PPC as a real counter is 100% dependent on a PPC hitting an ECM mech every 3.5-4 seconds so not likely to do much of anything.

As for hard to kill? Evasion is superior to absorbtion. any of the light mechs that use ECM are,if piloted well are very difficult to kill.
The Atlas DDC is actually the weakest ECM support platform because of this.I would never count on a DDC as my primary ECM support PPCs and TAG can actually hit it often enough to be a concern.

TAG? uses a weapon hardpoint,must be aimed and aim must be maintained requiring LOS.A TAG projects a visable beam that is literaly a laser pointer indicating you possition.If you have a TAG target you are also a viable target to be hit by counterfire.Meanwhile ECM needs no LOS and even if it is TAG'd the ECM is still providing it's benifits to any friendly within 180m that is not also TAG'd. Not what I call a counter since the ECM still provides it's functions to others even if the ECM is taged.Also,TAGing a small mech traversing through cover at 150+ kph is no easy task generaly all we get is a momentary interupt in ECM function not all that useful for doing anything.

Do you want to know what use ECM is?

ECM surpasses AMS as an anti missile system. and it works for all friendlies within 180m.In organized play this translates directly in to free tonnage since no one is loading an AMS and one ECM covers everyone.1.5 x 11 = 16.5 tons freed up.That's alot of extra ammo/heatsinks/armor etc.

ECM surpasses advanced sensor modules as a means of attaining superior relative sensor ranges.This makes the GXP and millions of C-bills spent on these modules a total waste if ECM is in use.

ECM removes non supported LRM fire from the game.LRMs require so much tactical and strategic support they are bearly worth taking if the enemy knows what it's doing.Frequently an LRM mech is forced to provide it's own TAG support.This exposes the fire support mech to direct attack by the enemy.With the slowest projectile speed in the game an LRM carrier is very vulnerable if forced to trade shots with a direct fire mech like an AC equiped mech.

ECM even when effected by a BAP has the effect of reducing Streak missiles to nearly half their range.ECM Jams streaks no lock can occur if an ECM is within 180m range.BAP counters ECM at 150m thus 150m is the new range available to streaks significantly lower than 270m a streak missile's actual range.

ECM removes access to critical data on ECM sheilded targets there is no way of determining specific data on a target like variant/damage values/weapon loadout/pilot name/Letter designation.

A crafty team will use multiples of the same chassis using identical paint jobs making determining them apart nearly impossible if they manuver well the enemy will not know which target is which or even how many are present.This is obviously a powerful strategic advantage.

You may be looking for mechs out at 1200m but your naked eye and rez of your monitor have limits.A flash contact on the HUD will passivley inform you of approching mechs.Intently scanning the distance for possible movement will likely get you alpha struck by a 30 point hit before you even determined the mech was a mech.

Also do not underestimate the value of the targeting box around the enemy as an aim enhancing mechanic.The guys without ECM show up those with don't this is a survival enhancer.

Survival enhancement is a force multiplyer.

Learn how ECM can be used and you will see it's a great deal more than a device that makes triangles impossible to find.Trust me I have over 29 hours logged on the 3L another 5 on a spider 5D and 22 hours with a DDC.That's alot of ECM time under my belt.

Really good write up Lykaon! Quoting it here for emphasis, as this is very good description of how ECM impacts organized play.

The increased number of soft-counters have improved matters somewhat over time, but the effort required to cancel ECM is still a lot higher than the effort required to receive its benefits, and realistically, to counter a team with 1-3 ECMs, your team may want to carry somewhere in the ballpark of 12-20 tons of equipment in the form of BAP units and TAG for light spotters and fire support units, plus possibly a few UAVs at 40k a pop. That's a pretty big sacrifice of weapons space to block out a tiny jammer pod.

Lykaon, on 16 January 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

Actually the opposite is what happened.Internal testing allowed for any mech to equip an ECM.This testing determined ECM was far to potent to allow every mech access to it so it was then altered to the specific chassis variants we have now (with spider 5d added later)

Technicaly this was the first ECM nerf but since it happened before we got our grubby little mits on it I never count it.

I remember that too, amusingly the example being that Gausscats (trip down memory lane right there) would be too OP with ECM. I'm not really sure why PGI never thought that, for example, you could just park a couple Gausscats next to a D-DC and fire away merrily without much threat of detection, but PGI head-sctatchers are not exactly in short supply.

[Solis Obscuri]

Roadbeer, on 17 January 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Sounds like you have more than one weapon group. How unmeta. Single click dakka FTW!

We have nine fingers more than we need to play MWO.

Single-click meta is further proof that humanity is devolving into slugs.

[Solis Obscuri]

Theodor Kling, on 16 January 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

In a way it does Because BT ECM disrupts C3 networks, which are somehow build into every mech here without taking weight or space.. ok, you win. It IS magic:(

Because it's been a little too long since I last did it, here's some break-down on the BT rules for C3 networks, indirect-fire with LRMs, and the effect of ECM on sensor spotting:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1539581

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1594860

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1755138

[Solis Obscuri]

I put up a proposal discussing how information warfare could be revived with a better selection of sensor modes which would have some options for countering ECM - but which might be hindered under certain environmental conditions as well. Unfortunately there must have been something more exciting going on on the forums that week, as it got buried without very many views.

I'd still like to see a much more fleshed-out Information Warfare system put into place in MWO.

Solis Obscuri said:

Right now ECM allows almost complete prohibition of Information Warfare capabilities to an opposing team. It is widely accepted as being unbalanced in effects and strength compared to other in-game technology, and as having too few effective counters besides itself.

As a result, we don't have as much Information Warfare now as we did just a few months ago; in bringing in Electronic Warfare it has been all but replaced as a feature. This wouldn't be quite so bad in EW was a more varied and interesting feature, but it isn't - it primarily revolves around one magic box that can be fitted to just five different 'mech variants and which allows the user to move through open spaces without detection, gain immunity to all homing weapons, and cut off enemy units from all communication with their friendly units. It does all this passively, without any needed input from the user; by contrast, the limited counters (TAG and soon PPC EMP effects) are much more heavily restricted and difficult to use.
It's a unipolar system and that doesn't make for a very compelling gameplay dynamic.

Now, under TT double-blind rules ECM didn't ever prevent indirect fire or LoS visual detection of enemy units, though under limited-visibility conditions (and when flanking a unit out of their FoV) it could be a stealth advantage by limiting sensor abilites; I'll bury the quoted sections behind a "Spoiler" tag to avoid death by wall of text here:

Spoiler

Quote

SPOTTING PHASE
During the Spotting Phase. the gamemaster checks to see if any enemy unit is seen by an opposing unit.
To perform spotting, the gamemaster checks his map sheets after plotting the movement of the players' units. He first determines if the units can detect any enemy unit visually. Then he checks to see if they can detect any enemy unit by using sensors. The gamemaster then informs each player of the location, facing and type of any enemy unit detected.
Units that start a double-blind game using the Hidden Units rules (p.77, BMR) cannot be spotted except by the methods outlined in the standard game rules. If a hidden unit fires, it is spotted only if an enemy unit could have seen it under the visual spotting rules.

VISUAL SPOTTING
A unit visually detects an enemy unit whenever three conditions are met. First, the enemy unit must lie within the forward firing arc of the spotting unit. Second, the spotter must have a clear line of sight to the enemy unit. Third, the enemy unit must be within the visual range of the spotting unit. Use the Visual Range Table to determine maximum visual range under various atmospheric conditions.

Spoiler

http://s7.postimage.org/4jg0jr9qz/visual_range_table.png

Vehicles with more than one crew member can spot in multiple firing arcs (see Vehicle Crews, p.28). Each additional crewmember beyond the first can spot in one additional firing arc, so that a vehicle with 4 or more crew members can spot in a 360 degree arc. Though infantry troops cannot see as far as BattleMechs or vehicles, they can serve as an excellent early warning system when properly deployed, because they offer the advantage of 360-degree spotting arcs.

SENSOR SPOTTING
Electronic sensors cover a wider field than most visual checks, but they can be fooled by the proper counter-measures. Electronic sensors operate in a 360-degree arc, regardless of the spotting unit's firing arc. All sensors, with the exception of seismic sensors, must have a line of sight to an enemy unit to detect it. The ranges of various BattleTech electronic sensor systems appear in the Sensor Range Table, p. 54.

To use a sensor, the player rolls 2D6. A result of 7 or 8 means the sensor detects any unit within its short range. A result of 5 or 6 means the sensor detects units out to its medium range. A result of 2 to 4 means the sensor detects units out to its long range. A roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units. A spotting unit may use only one type of sensor per turn, and the controlling player must indicate this choice on the movement chart for that turn. (Note that the probe and sensor rules provided here apply in double-blind games only.)

Spoiler

http://s7.postimage.org/q4l37d6hn/sensor_range_table.png

Three enemy 'Mechs surround Natalie's Raven. Daylight fills the battlefield, and the Raven sees the first enemy 'Mech easily-the machine is within the Raven's forward firing arc, the Raven has a valid LOS and the enemy unit is only 14 hexes away, well within the Raven's 60-hex visual range. The second 'Mech lies 12 hexes away, within the Raven's LOS but in its left-side firing arc. The third lies in the Raven's rear firing arc, 19 hexes away, again within its LOS. The Raven mounts a Beagle active probe, which Natalie has activated for this turn, and so the gamemaster rolls 2D6 to determine if her Raven spots the remaining two 'Mechs. The roll yields a result of 8, indicating that only units within short range are detected. This means that the Raven detects the second 'Mech, but not the third.

Vehicles have access to sensor systems similar to those used on 'Mechs, but in most cases these systems have shorter ranges, reflected in the Sensor Range Table. Infantry units do not have access to electronic sensors.
If seismic sensors are being used, any unit within range is spotted regardless of LOS. VTOLs cannot use seismic sensors, and they cannot be spotted by seismic sensors.

ECM SYSTEMS
Just as special sensors can make spottimg enemy units easier, special ECM systems can make units harder to detect. As a general rule, ECM systems mask a unit's nature and precise location from enemy sensors. but the systems' powerful jamming devices make it clear to the enemy that something is out there.

In the double-blind game, the Angel ECM suite, Guardian ECM suite and standard Clan ECM suites all modify the die roll results of spotting units attempting to detect an enemy unit equipped with such an ECM system. Because different ECM systems have different effects against different probes and sensors, the modifiers vary depending on the spotting unit's probe/sensor and the enemy unit's ECM system. These modifiers appear in the ECM Modifier Table.

Spoiler

http://s7.postimage.org/cz5l19cm3/ecm_stealth_mod_table.png

To be affected, the spotting unit must be in the normal operating radius ofthe ECM system. This radius is not affected by LOS. If a spotting unit is within the range of multiple ECM systems, combine the effects of all the ECM systems.
Though ECM systems can prevent a sensor probe from identifying a unit, they also produce powerful. distinctive electromagnetic "signatures." If a spotting unit is in range of an active ECM device and fails to detect the ECM-equipped unit, inform the player that his unit has been jammed by an ECM suite.

The rules given here for each of the probes and ECM systems only apply in double-blind games. For general BattleTech rules governing the Guardian and Clan ECM suites and the Beagle active probe, see pages 122, 126-127 of the BattleTech Master Rules. For general rules and descriptions of the Bloodhound active probe, see Equipment, page 72.

(Maximum Tech, p.50-51)

Looking over those level 3 rules, it's apparent that ECM works fairly well aginst some of the sensor types (RADAR and active probes) but does not jam other sensor types like IR, Magscan and Seismic sensors. Now if those were included in game (though perhaps with certain limitations) in additon to our basic sensor mode (let's assume it to be RADAR), the game of cat and mouse gets more interesting. Now units would have a way to detect, target and relay information on enemy units that are "cloaked", though perhaps with some limitations. IR might work less effectively on hot maps and more effectively on cold maps. Magscan might have different range brackets for different 'mech weight classes. Seismic might allow minimap/battlegrid detection of enemy units only when in motion and only at very close quarters, but be able to do so without LoS, though not actively target them that way.

For example, we could keep our current 800m LoS detection abilities for RADAR mode, as well as the current -75% weakness against ECM fields.

IR scans could operate at 75% of the range of RADAR (600m), but gain a +25% bonus (750m) on cold maps (like Frozen City) and against units running over 50% on their heat scale; on hot maps (like Caustic Valley) it might receive a -25% penalty (450m), and it might not be able to detect anything in areas of very high heat or obscuring smoke (the caldera in Caustic and near the fires raging in River City).

Magscan could work at 75% of RADAR range (600m) against assault 'mechs, 500m against heavies, 400m against mediums, but just 300m against lights. Local magnetic anomolies or areas with large amounts of metal present (like dense urban areas) could reduce its range further still, or block it altogether.

Seismic could allow minimap detections only within 150m, but no targeting by the 'mech using that mode; it'd be useful for direct-fire brawlers in tight quarters and urban maps, or to have one unit in a group run it to provide support to fellow units.
There could also be secondary effects - for instance, Flamer hits could "blind" IR scanners for 5 seconds or so (like PPCs are planned to temporarily disable ECM), and PPCs could have a secondary effect temporarily disabling Magscan for a few seconds as well.

You peer over the rim of the caldera in Caustic Valley. The intense heat has disabled your IR scanners, but you've switched to RADAR mode. Below, in the distance, you think you see movement - a string of enemy 'mechs marching up the 3 line. But they aren't showing up as targets - is ECM jamming you? You toggle to Magscan, and the pair of Atlai leading the formation pop up as D-DCs on your display - range of 580m. A little closer and those Catapults will be available as targets, too...

Suddenly, one of the K2s turns and launches a pair of bright blue bolts into you 'mechs torso. Your map scrambles, and you lose your sensor locks. Slamming your throttle into full reverse, you backpedal behind the safety of the volcano rim as a burning strings of LRMs hurtle towards you through the wavering toxic haze...

[Corvus Antaka]

its not overpowered. its overpowered when multiple ECMS bubble each other, thus making disabling the ECM an almost impossible problem.

[Prezimonto]

Wow... I love the idea that vision modes get tied back to the targeting system and are location in terms of utility. Allow radar to be blocked by ECM, but the others sensors all interact differently if more poorly under non-ECM condtions... so an LRM carrier might see targets and be forced into magscan (shorter range, and unrelaible in a city) and obsuring of regular vision while on forest colony, but on River City the choice might be IR (heat vision) where again shorter range, but not blocked by ECM and is viable in a city setting.

I can't +1 that idea hard enough.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 17 January 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

its not overpowered. its overpowered when multiple ECMS bubble each other, thus making disabling the ECM an almost impossible problem.

I liked that because the second half is true. And when considered that the first half is wrong it makes the second half so much worse.

[MustrumRidcully]

Prezimonto, on 17 January 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Why do I feel like every thread I read has the same 10 people who supply reasonable data and reasoning based on logic, arguing with the same 10 people who are enjoying the stale meta, and then Roadbeer and Sandpit who just troll anyone daring enough to start a new thread rather than add on to ancient posts that no one reads, have no curation to keep ideas centrally located, and have obviously been largely ignored?

Are you saying you're not happy with the current community warfare meta?

Don't worry, just 60 % more till CW 2.0. (aka CW 1.0).

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 17 January 2014 - 01:35 PM.