129 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 January 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

Sorry but fun to me is hitting you with a 8" slug and watching you dissolve. It just doesn't get better than that. Pin point damage I could care less about. it can go away forever as far as I care. But my Big Honkin Cannon better put a big honkin hole in your ride if I hit!

I myself much prefer napalm and white phosphorus. I like things that burn!

And speaking of WP, can we have cheap, relatively long lasting, and unlimited smoke modules please? Those should do a neat job against the poptarts that so many people seem to regularly complain about.

LastPaladin, on 17 January 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

A bit, sure, but they were nerfing in response to player demands, like this thread.

And yet people regularly accuse PGI of never listening.

Edited by Mystere, 17 January 2014 - 11:30 AM.

[LastPaladin]

Mystere, on 17 January 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

And yet people regularly accuse PGI of never listening.

They listen, I think they just tend to listen to bad ideas rather than good ones.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mystere, on 17 January 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

I myself much prefer napalm and white phosphorus. I like things that burn!

Time and place for everything good sir!

[MustrumRidcully]

LastPaladin, on 17 January 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

They listen, I think they just tend to listen to bad ideas rather than good ones.

Exhibit 1: Ghost Heat.
I saw that idea floating around in Closed Beta.


Though...

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe that was a random idea the devs had posted about, and players just picked up the idea.

Ghost Heat is in, a sensible heat system isn't. Nor has anything been done related to convergence. I think there was more material on the latter two than the first.

[Trauglodyte]

The JJ concept is fine but the implementation is off. We used to have a long duration of fuel but also a long time to actually jump anywhere. Also, 1 JJ was equivalent in thrust capacity to that of a full compliment. But, to make the community happy, they made the fuel tank smaller along with speeding up the jump speed and fuel recovery. So, now we've got an issue JJ mechs surpassing the agility of non-JJ mechs of similar weight, speed, and weapons compliments and pilots being able to early and often spread damage around their mechs because they can hop up and down. Furthermore, falling damage is non-existant for Mediums to Assaults and the recharge is enough to to time a full jump with heavy weapons recycling.

Just some numbers here:

5m = jump range per jet per second of fuel
3.25s = duration of fuel and recharge time on fuel tank
1.5 = amount of heat gained by using JJs; stays locked in until the JJs cease use (3% of 50 on the stock spider; 30 base + 20)

Anyone see the massive problem there?

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 January 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Time and place for everything good sir!

I don't know if I'm supposed to smile or cringe in fear.

[wanderer]

Mystere, on 17 January 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

I myself much prefer napalm and white phosphorus. I like things that burn!

And speaking of WP, can we have cheap, relatively long lasting, and unlimited smoke modules please? Those should do a neat job against the poptarts that so many people seem to regularly complain about.

Speaking of weapons that haven't made it in yet- the Inferno SRM. Nothin' like sticky flaming napalm missiles to ruin someone's heat scale! Or smoke rounds for LRM/SRM. Too bad that sorta thing, like giving the LB-X it's solid shot would require them to set up multiple ammo types for a given weapon. That would be hard. Derp.

Heck, there's time I'd take a smoke barrage as a module option if I could. Because a nice broad-spectrum visual inhibitor would be aces for breaking through a lot of places. Sorta like Counterstrike- a little extra indirect boom or no-see-me at the right time is a big tactical winner.

[Rip von Graze]

I posted this over in another thread chatting about poptarting, maybe it will have a broader audience here:

- Keep current reticle bounce on the way up
- On the way down reticle bounch is much less pronouced but still there
- At apex of the jump the reticle bouce is still present but at the falling level of bounce.

What will this solution offer?
- Reduced accuracy of poptarts at range
- Reduction in effectiveness of meta chained weapons
- Minimal effect on Brawling use of Jump Jets

Thoughts?

--Ripvan

[Dark Horse X]

I think the tools for creating more of a balance between the meta and pug players would be a rehash of some of the things discussed here.

#1. PPC Splash Damage: I would agree, making a PPC do less direct damage, with the remainder being splash. a 60/40 sounds about right.

#2. Ballistics: Nerfing ballistics from a single round to burst is ridiculous.....keep as is; it is fine the way they are.

#3. Cockpit Glass: This could so be used to great affect to help out against the meta. If you were to take all the weapons in MWO and tier them, such as: Tier #1: PPC's, AC's 5 & UP and make it such that if a certain number of them were fired together created so much stress that it would degrade the cockpit glass (cracks, distortion, etc.), this would alleviate a lot of the meta builds and bring more variety and usefulness to other weapons.

#4. Ferro-Fibrous Armor: As it is right now, outside of a minor benefit in weight compared to a huge cost in critical slots, FF just isn't all that useful. Instead, have the FF act as a kevlar, in that it gives some damage reducing benefits against ballistics, ppc's and missiles - BUT NOT against lasers or machine guns. This would give a larger diversity of builds and again - make lasers a viable option to the present meta.

#5. Double Heat Sinks: Not being a "true" double heat sink is part of the problem, adjusting the dissipation closer towards the "true" double would be a move in the right direction.

#6. Laser Duration Times: 1 full second for a duration is too long, shorten all laser durations and this would help a lot.

#7. Jump Jets: Make it so that if any weapon firing that has recoil properties, it affects the facing of the mech in midair. If a single AC/20 (or PPC, or any other AC's) is fired while in the air, then the recoil would cause the mechs facing to spin accordingly. Upon landing, the mech would have to then readjust it's position/facing for it's next volley. Of course, if a mech fired 2 AC's of equal value AND had them in each arm, the affect would be cancelled and facing would stay as normal.

Personally, I think these would address and bring the energy weapons more in line with the present competitive meta. This would then see more chassis and various weapon types becoming very viable. This would increase the sales of all of the mechs being offered. A win/win for everyone involved.

[Wu Jen]

Make mechs unable to fire while jumping. Problem solved. You can still use the JJ's for mobility but not for sniping. Gone will be the days of the poptarts.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Wu Jen, on 19 January 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

Make mechs unable to fire while jumping. Problem solved. You can still use the JJ's for mobility but not for sniping. Gone will be the days of the poptarts.

And what about those of us that use them while brawling?

[BagOfMeat]

Wu Jen, on 19 January 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

Make mechs unable to fire while jumping. Problem solved. You can still use the JJ's for mobility but not for sniping. Gone will be the days of the poptarts.

probably the most drastic measure but I agree +1

IMO jj in brawling are for mech who know there gonna die shortly and to survive slightly longer they use jj or when there is a mass orgy of mechs having a slug fight people tend to use jj.

Edited by BagOfMeat, 19 January 2014 - 06:13 AM.

[wanderer]

BagOfMeat, on 19 January 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

probably the most drastic measure but I agree +1

IMO jj in brawling are for mech who know there gonna die shortly and to survive slightly longer they use jj or when there is a mass orgy of mechs having a slug fight people tend to use jj.

I'll use JJ's all the time, especially when I have a slower-to-reload gun or missile rack. Why take fire when I can jump over, land, and deliver another full salvo? Lets me cool down a bit, too. I disagree with allowing no fire while jumping. Just make it so folks shake while airborne, active jets or not (and less when they're not, but still make the sights twitchy).

It doesn't take much shake at all to mess with accurate poptarting.

Edited by wanderer, 19 January 2014 - 09:20 AM.

[BagOfMeat]

wanderer, on 19 January 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

I'll use JJ's all the time, especially when I have a slower-to-reload gun or missile rack. Why take fire when I can jump over, land, and deliver another full salvo? Lets me cool down a bit, too. I disagree with allowing no fire while jumping. Just make it so folks shake while airborne, active jets or not (and less when they're not, but still make the sights twitchy).

It doesn't take much shake at all to mess with accurate poptarting.

yeah if you didn't know that's what the thread is about stopping/balancing . . . thanks for shearing what you and all other poptarts use them for lol.

Well the OP is more to do with PPC and AC5's but right now poptarting is what's the problem as if you remove the ability to fire when JJ the guys with ppc and AC5 will have to fight conventionally which means they open them selves up to more conventional attack which = more fun and balanced game woop woop every one is a winner and you would have more variety (which we all know is the spice of life)

[PiVoR]

Does anyone else found lack of animations for jumjeting anoying? It feels like jumping, falling and landing lacks few frames what provides 1 second of immunity for each animation, especially when you got around 150 ping.
Like there is no way to punish jumping snipers, really anoying.

[Mystere]

Wu Jen, on 19 January 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

Make mechs unable to fire while jumping. Problem solved. You can still use the JJ's for mobility but not for sniping. Gone will be the days of the poptarts.

Your "carpet bombing" to kill poptarts will kill jump-browling lights too.

Besides, poptarts are only a problem to those who do not know how to deal with them.

Edited by Mystere, 19 January 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[Reno Blade]

I posted some AC tweaks here:
http://mwomercs.com/...istic-tweaking/
Mind you, they look brutal, but the results might be exactly what we need to balance them. Take a look and leave feedback
- less "brutal" groupfire combos (e.g. dual UAC20)
- higher aiming skill required to land all shots to keep up dps (like AC2s already)
- less range for the big-hit weapons seperating sniping from brawling.
- bigger differences between LBX, AC and UACs.
- no obvious "best" weapon (free choice and no "META")


About JJs:
I thought about possible numbers for the JJ fuel and speed.
currently the fuel is independent of number of JJs as is the regeneration, only the thrust seems better, right?
With aiming for between 3 and 5 JJ as the norm, here are my values for how I imagine a good solution.

New JJ:
Each new JJ gives + 10% more fuel and 20% more reload speed, but the lower number of JJs will be less than what we have now.

Fuel of 1 new JJ = about 70% of fuel of 1 old JJ
Reload of 1 new JJ = about 40% of reload speed of 1 old JJ

Fuel of 2 new JJ = 80% fuel
Reload of 2 new JJ = 60% reload speed

Fuel of 3 new JJ = 90% fuel
Reload of 3 new JJ = 80% reload speed.

Fuel of 4 new JJ = 100% fuel
Reload of 4 new JJ = 100% reload speed.

Fuel of 5 new JJ = 110% fuel
Reload of 5 new JJ = 120% reload speed.

For a 12JJ spider:
Fuel of 12 JJ = 180% fuel
Reload of 12 JJ = 280% reload speed.
The 12JJ Spider would have nearly double the fuel and reloads about tripple as of now, but because of the larger fuel tank, it would be only slightly faster overall.

As you can see, 4 JJ would be what we have now, but some mechs like the HGN and Vic don't have more than 3 JJ slots so they will jump a little less even with 3/3 JJs. (just a little)

Obviously you could add one of these % numbers as heat too.

[Roland]

Even if you remove jump sniping entirely, bads are still going to be bad, and they will just blame it on some new thing that the enemy did that they decide is cheap.

[RichAC]

You are always going to have a meta build. Its human nature. Constant nerfing, like dumbing game modes down, is never good for a game, its never ending.

The only time you really need to nerf something, is if even the lowest skilled players can use them in the same manner. If the guys with the worst aim or horrible tactics, can use the same loadout just as effectively as top players, when compared to their other loadouts. Then I say nerf. Otherwise, get over it and practice more.

It took me almost two months to get halfway decent with ctf-3d with 2 ppcs and 2 ac5's. The only mech with ppc/ac i use. I hated the mech and hated the build for a long time. I was constantly complaining about how hard ppc's were to use. But I forced myself to play it. Practice makes perfect.

Edited by RichAC, 19 January 2014 - 02:04 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Step 1 : Fix SRM's

Step 2 : Increase the speed and agility of medium mechs

Step 3 : Introduce hud loss/fuzz for high heat thresholds

Step 4 : Give JJ more upward and forward thrust, Make no of JJ proportionate to stability of shake and add heat for usage

Nerf nothing, make brawling viable between ML,SRM, AC10/20 more so with quicker more agile medium mechs to close the gap.

If you really want to shake things up remove the DoT effect on lasers and suddenly they become an even better option and a whole host of things just became viable.

And yes the Gauss Rifle charge up should be removed, add more weapons to the viable pile by buffing and increasing usefulness in varied ways between systems...less nerfing and merry go rounding bad systems.

Edited by DV McKenna, 19 January 2014 - 04:01 PM.