162 replies to this topic

[DAYLEET]

Victor Morson, on 26 January 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:

ahahhahahahahahahah.

Jesus Christ man, are you aggressively trying to screw new players or do you really believe that?

The Hunchback is absolutely inferior to the Shadow Hawk in a brawl because:

• Can carry the same ballistic loadouts
  
• Can carry far more diverse effective loadouts (Streakhawks, for example)
  
• Jump capable
  
• Massively improved hit boxes
  
• Both faster & more manuverable

The Hunchback is a piece of trash outside of the large laser variant and that is a very specific niche that I personally am not even really sold on even if it's been successful to a degree. The Hunchback is in no way superior to the Shadow Hawk and anyone telling people otherwise is either trolling them or woefully inexperienced.

A shadowhawk is easy mode, a new guy will never get good and learn the game in a poptart daka and will get destroyed the second he's forced out of his hiding hole by a half competent HBK pilot. Yeah i agree with you that the SDH is easier to play and i agree that if someone learn the game in a HBK he will get a lot better in the end when he chose to buy new mechs.

[AaronWolf]

You know what I say? Brawling is an art, and can be done with a lot of different mechs. I will say the heavier ones can be the best at it though.

So I say Victor, Orion, Battlemaster and Jager for top picks in my book.

Edit: Also Brawling can mean more then twist & shoot. Anything close quarters is really brawling to be honest.

Could also call it a Slugfest.

Edited by AaronWolf, 30 January 2014 - 02:01 PM.

[Victor Morson]

DAYLEET, on 30 January 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

A shadowhawk is easy mode, a new guy will never get good and learn the game in a poptart daka and will get destroyed the second he's forced out of his hiding hole by a half competent HBK pilot. Yeah i agree with you that the SDH is easier to play and i agree that if someone learn the game in a HBK he will get a lot better in the end when he chose to buy new mechs.

Except Shadow Hawks out brawl Hunchbacks.
Except Shadow Hawks hunt lights better than Hunchbacks.
Except Shadow Hawks beat Hunchbacks at long range.
Except Shadow Hawks also beat Hunchbacks at medium range.
Except Shadow Hawks beat Hunchback at SRMs.

You're right, it's easier to kill things in a Shadow Hawk than a Hunchback. That's the point. And that's the thing newbies reading this thread need to keep in mind: These people want you to drive handicapped 'mechs. Their recommendations are purposely gimping you because that's what they have fun doing.

Edited by Victor Morson, 31 January 2014 - 12:30 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Victor Morson, on 31 January 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

Except Shadow Hawks out brawl Hunchbacks.
Except Shadow Hawks how hunt lights over Hunchbacks.
Except Shadow Hawks beat Hunchbacks at long range.
Except Shadow Hawks beat Hunchback at SRMs.

Except Shadow Hawks TEACH none of those skills since they do not need to rely on having those skills.

Thank you for yet again missing the point.

[DAYLEET]

Victor Morson, on 31 January 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

These people want you to drive handicapped 'mechs. Their recommendations are purposely gimping you because that's what they have fun doing.

We made it very clear why we recomend what we recoment. Only you lack the cerebral matter to understand this and assume everyone you are "trying to help" also lack the same ammount or cerebral matter. Im done here, here's a pat on the back.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 31 January 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

[/size]
Except Shadow Hawks TEACH none of those skills since they do not need to rely on having those skills.

Thank you for yet again missing the point.

Absolutely nothing is learned by training on an inferior system. There is absolutely no reason that you should "learn more" by driving a purposely inferior 'mech. None at all. It's a very, very silly philosophy.

In your eyes, if I drive an AC/20 Hunchback with a huge weak shoulder and no jump jets, people are supposedly "learning more" than driving a jump capable Shadow Hawk without a huge bull's eye sticking out like a video game boss glowing area? Or perhaps they are learning more by NOT having jump jets, eh?

This is a very stupid concept. The military doesn't start training people on M1 Garands before making them move to M16s, either, man.

DAYLEET, on 31 January 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

We made it very clear why we recomend what we recoment. Only you lack the cerebral matter to understand this and assume everyone you are "trying to help" also lack the same ammount or cerebral matter. Im done here, here's a pat on the back.

"Hunchbacks are a good 'mech to learn on" is the thing I see people write a lot.

"You should start at the bottom sunny, 'cause it builds character!" is the translation.

You learn absolutely nothing more by piloting a piece of trash 'mech. In fact learning begins with knowing to avoid trash 'mechs. This is literally the MW:O equivalent of saying in an FPS "You should unlock the pistol first and only use the pistol for the first two months, it'll make you awesome!" which is hilariously wrong.

Edited by Victor Morson, 31 January 2014 - 12:31 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Victor Morson, on 31 January 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Absolutely nothing is learned by training on an inferior system

That would very much depend on how inferior it is, no?

As an example:
In Mario Kart 64, Toad has a distinctly lower top speed than Bowser - which by many standards makes him an inferior racer.

However, Toad has a distinctly higher acceleration and turn rate - which by other standards makes him a superior racer.

Mario sits exactly between these two.

If your opponent only ever takes Bowser, and only picks the longer courses, where the endurance of the top speed matters more - you are at a distinct disadvantage taking Toad - however, NONE of the courses are the FLAT, OPEN battlezones you seem to think is what we have to populate MWO - and Toad's advantages mean that, given equal players, Toad is just as likely to win that race as Bowser.

To compare those racers to MWO:

The Shadowhawk has (on paper) better armor and weapon loadout options than the Hunchback.

HOWEVER:
The Hunchback has FAR better torso twist (some of the best in the game, mind you) - and, despite the hunch, far superior peripheral vision. (hard to have worse than NO peripheral vision after all)

Given that the maps are NOT the FLAT OPEN maps you seem to think populate the game, those advantages can quite easily put the Hunchback as the superior mech.
After all there is nothing the Shadowhawk can do to you if you get around his pitiful up/down torso twist - which is one of the worst in the game, mind you. - all the jumpjets in the world cannot help you aim down. (or have you yet to figure that one out yet?)

Of course now all this depends on your (so far non-existent) ability to consider that advantages toward the Meta and 12-mans means next to nothing in the PuG world - where, BTW, most new player learning happens.

Have a nice day - and welcome back onto my ignore list.

[luxebo]

Victor Morson, on 26 January 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:

The Hunchback is a piece of trash outside of the large laser variant.

But there is no large laser variant, only the med laser variant. And wait why are we arguing once again about shadow hawks vs hunchbacks when we know that Victor will always stick to the point of Shadow Hawk > Hunchback?

[mack sabbath]

I suggest a Highlander, standard 300, or a ballistic Victor, 350-380 XL.

Edited by Die Primate Die, 31 January 2014 - 04:51 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Die Primate Die, on 31 January 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

or a ballistic Victor, 350-380 XL.

/Troll_ON
I think Victor went ballistic the first time he saw the word Hunchback in this thread.......
/Troll_Off


Wow...didn't think those tags still worked

[Alaskan Nobody]

Alternative comparison to my above:

The Soldier and Demoman from TF2

From what little I have played/seen/heard of that game, everything a Soldier can do, a good Demoman can do better - yet the Soldier is still considered a playable (By our standard - not Victors) class, if for no other reason than because it is much simpler than the Demoman.

Hunchback is a lot simpler (in some ways.) than the Shadowhawk.

[1453 R]

Can the Hunchback work? Yes, certainly. It's been around since forever, there are folks who pilot the Hunchback as naturally as they put their shoes on in the morning. Any time I see a Founder's 4G, i tend to afford it a bit more respect than I otherwise might, just because of the potential of that pilot to be a very experienced hand with his machine.

Does that make the Hunchback as good as the Shadowhawk?



The Shawk is a more flexible and less vulnerable chassis, with better weapon distribution and the same high-mount weapon advantage the Hunchback has with a significantly smaller hunch. It has the hardpoints to do most anything you'd care to do with it outside of energy-heavy configurations (which currently largely bite anyways), and it hits a sweet spot weight-wise that's honestly kinda hard to beat. Light enough to remain agile and evasive - and to equip half-ton jump jets! - while also being heavy enough to take enough armor to survive a mistake or two.

Honestly? If you want to fight in the brawl in the medium weight class, buy a Blackjack, not a Shawk or a Hunchback. The BJ-1© (or C-bill equivalent) is an excellent little pocket striker that reminds me of the glory days of the 4SP in its ability to fight well above its weight class when handled well. If you want a medium 'Mech that epitomizes the medium weight class, will be a viable choice for you for many months to come, and can pull off most any whacky idea you've got, buy Shadow Hawks instead. And if you want a Hunchback, buy that. I'm a Dragon pilot, I'm not about to tell people not to buy what they like.

Just be prepared to get wrecked by Boomjacks or Shadow Hawks who know where to shoot. The same way I've got to be prepared to get my gigantic schnozz blasted off every time I set out in a Durgan.

[Alaskan Nobody]

1453 R, on 31 January 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

The Shawk is a more flexible

THAT I would disagree with - Jump Jets do not cure all ills (see my argument with Victor about hitting short mechs with the shoulder weapons) - and the Shawk has the worst torso flex in the medium weight class.

[1453 R]

Not physically flexible, Shar. Tactically flexible. Any given Hunchback has one, UND PRECISELY VUN, nominal loadout. Their hardpoint configurations impose drastic limits on what they can do and make the chassis predictable. shadow Hawks, on the other hand, can switch freely between ballistics-heavy or missile-heavy loadouts, and are also much more effective with a mixed armament than a typical Hunchback. They also don't always lose ninety percent of their firepower when their left shoulder is torn off. That last point can be quite important to a proper brawler.

[Alaskan Nobody]

1453 R, on 31 January 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

Not physically flexible, Shar. Tactically flexible

That I can work with.

Little more precision next time and we can avoid that misunderstanding.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 31 January 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

That would very much depend on how inferior it is, no?

The Hunchback is, outside of a very specific laserboat niche 'mech, pretty much horridly inferior. So yeah, pretty much "flat out worse in every way."

Again, there are far worse 'mechs than the Hunchback, but I also think it's really terrible to push newbies towards a flat out 2nd rate 'mech (again, outside of a very specific niche.) They'll get better results, and actually learn an additional skill with jump jetting if they go Shadow Hawk out of the gate over the Hunchback.

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 February 2014 - 03:27 AM.

[Victor Morson]

luxebo, on 31 January 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

But there is no large laser variant, only the med laser variant. And wait why are we arguing once again about shadow hawks vs hunchbacks when we know that Victor will always stick to the point of Shadow Hawk > Hunchback?

... uh what? I'm not talking stock load outs. I'm saying that there's a kind of successful niche Hunchback that runs 4 Large Lasers (I've been taking a preference to the Treb 5J for the same role given the XL engine) and basically non-stop keeps showering on damage during a fight from the back, a low priority target that can sting pretty hard.

There's also a medium laser boat that, again, has some limited niche but I don't see in the best units very much.

Again, there is that one niche for the things, but they are still flat out inferior to Shadow Hawks, which are far and away the best medium for most things.*

* The Cicada and Griffin both have unique uses. The KTO-18 Streaktaro has a limited niche in some leagues.

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 February 2014 - 03:31 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Sorry Vic: but I am not even bothering to read that.

In your very very clear opinion:
ANY inferiority (in YOUR opinion) is absolute.
My posts were more for those other people who might (and should) be reading all this)

Keep quoting me, and you only make yourself look like a Troll again.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Sorry Vic: but I am not even bothering to read that.

In your very very clear opinion:
ANY inferiority (in YOUR opinion) is absolute.
My posts were more for those other people who might (and should) be reading all this)

Inferior 'mechs are inferior? Uhh, yeah, pretty much.

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Keep quoting me, and you only make yourself look like a Troll again.

"Lalalalalala I can't hear you! Here's what I have to say, but don't reply Troll! lalalalalala!" lol

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 31 January 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Alternative comparison to my above:

The Soldier and Demoman from TF2

PS: That would imply that the Hunchback and Shadow Hawk had different roles entirely, as these two do. They don't.

Compare a Cicada to a Shadow Hawk? Then this reference is valid. Otherwise this is like comparing a Soldier with a -25% damage rocket launcher to a Soldier with a +25% damage rocket launcher and trying to say that the -25% one "builds character."