162 replies to this topic

[Alaskan Nobody]

You really ARE a troll aren't you?

Keep this up and you actually will qualify for being reported for harassment.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Victor Morson, on 01 February 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Inferior 'mechs are inferior? Uhh, yeah, pretty much.

Inferior at one thing =/= inferior at everything.
The ONLY advantages the Shawk brings is weight and JJ - and it gives up ALL ability to aim very far up or down.
JJ counter the up - but NOT the down - really making yourself look smart here Vic.

Victor Morson, on 01 February 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

"Lalalalalala I can't hear you! Here's what I have to say, but don't reply Troll! lalalalalala!" lol

Vic: hmm, he disagrees with me, he must be stupid
Vic: oh look, he has evidence he is right...hmmm... oh it's PuG! so it doesn't count.
Vic: See? I have evidence to! In this PuG!

Victor Morson, on 01 February 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

PS: That would imply that the Hunchback and Shadow Hawk had different roles entirely, as these two do. They don't.

Umm.... Urban Brawler =/= Mobile Harasser/Scout.

They may be being used for the same thing - but so are the Soldier and Demoman.


Welcome back to the TOP of the ignore list.

[Wrathful-Khan]

When it came time to purchase my first mech (Before the Shawk existed) I bought a Hunch because I didn't really understand how the mechlab worked yet, and I didn't have much spare money to pimp it out. I thought the stock loadout on the 4G looked usable for what I wanted to do (shoot a big bloody cannon).

It served me well for the 50 odd matches I dropped in it. I made all of the usual rookie errors - and learned from them.

Eventually I realised that the 4G was just an undergunned Jager and that's what I really wanted. Bought a JM-6S and never drove that 4G again (I don't even own it any more - it's a terrible mech to customise).

I think if the Shawk was around and I'd bought one then i'd probably still own it at least. But there was nothing wrong with being pwned in my rookie Hunch and actually I remember those magical pwnings fondly.

AS for the OP - I say Victor if you want to be the guy putting out the hurt.

Edited by Indiandream, 01 February 2014 - 11:40 AM.

[luxebo]

Victor Morson, on 01 February 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

... uh what? I'm not talking stock load outs. I'm saying that there's a kind of successful niche Hunchback that runs 4 Large Lasers (I've been taking a preference to the Treb 5J for the same role given the XL engine) and basically non-stop keeps showering on damage during a fight from the back, a low priority target that can sting pretty hard.

There's also a medium laser boat that, again, has some limited niche but I don't see in the best units very much.

4 Large Lasers? That sounds like a really bad build for a Hunchie, not to be offensive. Lose that hunch and you lose almost your entire armament. Plus overheating would be common. Once again not really gonna argue with the Shad vs Hunchie.

Indiandream, on 01 February 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

When it came time to purchase my first mech (Before the Shawk existed) I bought a Hunch because I didn't really understand how the mechlab worked yet, and I didn't have much spare money to pimp it out. I thought the stock loadout on the 4G looked usable for what I wanted to do (shoot a big bloody cannon).

It served me well for the 50 odd matches I dropped in it. I made all of the usual rookie errors - and learned from them.

Eventually I realised that the 4G was just an undergunned Jager and that's what I really wanted. Bought a JM-6S and never drove that 4G again (I don't even own it any more - it's a terrible mech to customise).

I think if the Shawk was around and I'd bought one then i'd probably still own it at least. But there was nothing wrong with being pwned in my rookie Hunch and actually I remember those magical pwnings fondly.

Don't compare a Jager to a 4G. 4G is good as an ac20 holder in non-competitive matches generally. Jager is completely different in comparison. 4G isn't bad as a customization mech, you just need to be creative.

[Wrathful-Khan]

luxebo, on 01 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Don't compare a Jager to a 4G. 4G is good as an ac20 holder in non-competitive matches generally. Jager is completely different in comparison. 4G isn't bad as a customization mech, you just need to be creative.

I just meant for my purposes. (Why bring one AC20 when you can bring 2 )

P.S. I've moved on from that cheese a long time ago.

[Alaskan Nobody]

luxebo, on 01 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Don't compare a Jager to a 4G. 4G is good as an ac20 holder in non-competitive matches generally. Jager is completely different in comparison. 4G isn't bad as a customization mech, you just need to be creative.

Who was it, Koniving? who came up with the LBAC+2MG setup? (forgot what else it had)
That one is pretty scary to fight if you aren't careful.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

You really ARE a troll aren't you?

Keep this up and you actually will qualify for being reported for harassment.

Maybe you could follow through with your ignore list you keep talking about? You sure do reply to me a lot for ignoring me. lol

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Inferior at one thing =/= inferior at everything.

But they are inferior at everything. Except energy boating in that very specific niche I keep disclaiming, repeatedly.

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

The ONLY advantages the Shawk brings is weight and JJ - and it gives up ALL ability to aim very far up or down.

WRONG!

The Shadow Hawk brings:

• A far better gun mount without weakness, while still being perfectly high mounted.
  
• Far better hit boxes in every way.
  
• Far better hard point layouts in every way.
  
• Can out AC/20 brawl, out snipe, our AC/5+PPC meta, out LRM and out (S)SRM the Hunchback.
  
• Can take a far better engine.
  
• Jump jets.
  
• That extra 5 tons makes a huge impact on the 'mechs performance, with 55 being a "sweet spot."

The Hunchback brings a giant shoulder "Kick me" sign.

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

JJ counter the up - but NOT the down - really making yourself look smart here Vic.

Vic: hmm, he disagrees with me, he must be stupid
Vic: oh look, he has evidence he is right...hmmm... oh it's PuG! so it doesn't count.
Vic: See? I have evidence to! In this PuG!
[/size]
Umm.... Urban Brawler =/= Mobile Harasser/Scout.

I literally am not following this ramble. You've never offered compelling evidence that the Hunchback is superior than the Shadow Hawk - not once - for me to even shoot down.

Second, jump jets are not just for popping. They're heavily for gliding. A Shadow Hawk can turn a 180, keep it's front armor at the Hunchback while moving away from it at full speed with a good jump-glide. This one move alone makes it massively superior for dog fighting, and is the reason that the Centurion will almost positively be replaced by the Griffin if SRMs ever come back in vogue.

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

They may be being used for the same thing - but so are the Soldier and Demoman.

You really don't play much TF2, do you? I'm hardly an expert at TF2 and even I can tell you that's hilariously inaccurate. They aren't even in the same category - Demomen are Defense and Soldiers are Offense. It's comparing apples to oranges, Highlanders to Jenners. Your entire argument does not hold water.

Again, Hunchback vs Shadow Hawk is like "Soldier with an improved weapon vs soldier with a bad weapon." There are other mediums that fill other roles.

The Black Jack has a place for example. So does the Cicada, and the Griffin (though not much of one just yet). Even the Treb - specific models mind you - has a place on the field sometimes; so does that niche Hunchback I've brought up repeatedly. They all serve different purposes than the Shadow Hawk.

The Hunchback serves the same purpose of the Shadow Hawk, but does so poorly. There's nothing more to it than that.

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Welcome back to the TOP of the ignore list.

Maybe if you actually do it this time you won't feel compelled to reply to this Bye!

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 February 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[Victor Morson]

luxebo, on 01 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

4 Large Lasers? That sounds like a really bad build for a Hunchie, not to be offensive. Lose that hunch and you lose almost your entire armament. Plus overheating would be common. Once again not really gonna argue with the Shad vs Hunchie.

It's a config that sounds bad on paper (much like the 2 ER Large Raven), but enough top tier units have made it work that it's impossible to discount it as a bad design; the trick is to basically field one and have them constantly fire 2x2.

Also the current meta trend is builds where one side has all the weapons, so that the flip side can be used as a meat shield, which is why it's popular.

For what it's worth, again - it's a proven design, so this is just my conjecture - I think the Treb 5J is a better 'mech for the setup; the symmetrical design isn't such a drawback on the 'mech and it does give you the edge of being able to fire around corners very effectively with one arm or the other. But again, this is conjecture, and that HB build is something that's used surprisingly effective.

Like I said though, it sounds awful on paper. I really didn't buy into it at first, but seeing is believing.

luxebo, on 01 February 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Don't compare a Jager to a 4G. 4G is good as an ac20 holder in non-competitive matches generally. Jager is completely different in comparison. 4G isn't bad as a customization mech, you just need to be creative.

I think the 4G is the worst of the HBs, but you're right, it's night & day versus a boomjag. Jags have enough drawbacks of their own (terrible hitboxes even now) but there's no denying that there's a solid place for them as powerful glass cannons.

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Who was it, Koniving? who came up with the LBAC+2MG setup? (forgot what else it had)
That one is pretty scary to fight if you aren't careful.

You mean hilarious to fight.

Every time I run into an LBX/MG Jag instead of a Boomjag or Gaussjag (or some other decent pug designs like UACs or even the missile boat one), I am totally relieved because there's no way that {Scrap} armament is getting through armor before the poor thing pops like a balloon. Any build that requires on target firepower to get solid DPS but also has one of the notoriously bad hitboxes in the game is a very, very bad build.

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 February 2014 - 01:18 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Indiandream, on 01 February 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

When it came time to purchase my first mech (Before the Shawk existed) I bought a Hunch because I didn't really understand how the mechlab worked yet, and I didn't have much spare money to pimp it out. I thought the stock loadout on the 4G looked usable for what I wanted to do (shoot a big bloody cannon).

It served me well for the 50 odd matches I dropped in it. I made all of the usual rookie errors - and learned from them.

Eventually I realised that the 4G was just an undergunned Jager and that's what I really wanted. Bought a JM-6S and never drove that 4G again (I don't even own it any more - it's a terrible mech to customise).

I think if the Shawk was around and I'd bought one then i'd probably still own it at least. But there was nothing wrong with being pwned in my rookie Hunch and actually I remember those magical pwnings fondly.

AS for the OP - I say Victor if you want to be the guy putting out the hurt.

And for folks just joining us in your position, that's why I continue in these threads to call people on bad recommendations. The Jagermech was a definite upgrade for you; it is a kind of niche design you don't see in every drop, but there are times you really need that twin-heavy-ballistic and it cleans house in the right setup.

Definitely a superior setup, if a slightly different role than a medium.

That said if you ever want to try a medium again, you probably would dig the Shadow Hawk. AC20 + ER PPC is a pretty nasty AC/20 setup.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Reported.

Have a WONDERFUL life Vic.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

Reported.

Have a WONDERFUL life Vic.

For replying to you and saying that you're wrong? lol

Or for calling you on the fact that your much touted and referenced "ignore list" seems to be totally broken there? [Need some help setting it up, buddy?]

You literally have no case or argument except "I am telling you that you are recommending bad 'mechs in a forum to discuss strategy." The horror. I am a monster!

EDIT: Oh one last thing.. literally half your posts are this:

Shar: -Silly thing without merit- I AM ADDING YOU TO MY IGNORE LIST!!!!
Vic: -Replies with accurate information, quotes Shar-
Shar: HOW DARE YOU REPLY TO MY STATEMENT, I AM BEING HARASSED! WELCOME TO MY IGNORE LIST!
Vic: -Replies-
Shar: *OBVIOUSLY NOT FIGURING OUT THE IGNORE LIST* -Replies again-

heh

My advice to you is if you don't like to be disagreed with, stay out of the forum off the internet, because you're not going to find many places everyone won't reply to you with things you don't want to hear.

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 February 2014 - 01:28 PM.

[luxebo]

Indiandream, on 01 February 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

I just meant for my purposes. (Why bring one AC20 when you can bring 2 )

P.S. I've moved on from that cheese a long time ago.

HBK-4G is faster, though then again my argument is then destroyed by the Shad which would be even faster...

Victor Morson, on 01 February 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

It's a config that sounds bad on paper (much like the 2 ER Large Raven), but enough top tier units have made it work that it's impossible to discount it as a bad design; the trick is to basically field one and have them constantly fire 2x2.

Also the current meta trend is builds where one side has all the weapons, so that the flip side can be used as a meat shield, which is why it's popular.

For what it's worth, again - it's a proven design, so this is just my conjecture - I think the Treb 5J is a better 'mech for the setup; the symmetrical design isn't such a drawback on the 'mech and it does give you the edge of being able to fire around corners very effectively with one arm or the other. But again, this is conjecture, and that HB build is something that's used surprisingly effective.

Like I said though, it sounds awful on paper. I really didn't buy into it at first, but seeing is believing.

I think the 4G is the worst of the HBs, but you're right, it's night & day versus a boomjag. Jags have enough drawbacks of their own (terrible hitboxes even now) but there's no denying that there's a solid place for them as powerful glass cannons.

I would say Grid Iron would take the throne of being worst of the Hunchies. It's stupid.

I gotta see this 4LL Hunchie, it sounds dumb but maybe it could work if those units were really good at torso twist.

Guys, I understand that Vic isn't the most popular dude here due to his ways of showing his competitive viewpoint of the game, but reporting him for at least showing his viewpoint of a situation, that's a bit too far, no? He means good, although maybe a bit rough at times.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Victor Morson, on 01 February 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

.............................

For repeated HARRASMENT

We never said you were outright wrong, we said there are OTHER OPTIONS.

The Meta mechs are not so powerful they cannot be beaten by the non-meta mechs EVEN WITH MEDIOCRE PILOTS.

luxebo, on 01 February 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

HBK-4G is faster, though then again my argument is then destroyed by the Shad which would be even faster...



I would say Grid Iron would take the throne of being worst of the Hunchies. It's stupid.

I gotta see this 4LL Hunchie, it sounds dumb but maybe it could work if those units were really good at torso twist.

Guys, I understand that Vic isn't the most popular dude here due to his ways of showing his competitive viewpoint of the game, but reporting him for at least showing his viewpoint of a situation, that's a bit too far, no? He means good, although maybe a bit rough at times.

You put someone on ignore, because they refuse to talk to you without mocking you.
You let them know that you are choosing to ignore them (at which point I should have stopped responding: you should not feed trolls) because that is somewhat polite.

They keep quoting you?

that is Harassment.

[luxebo]

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

You put someone on ignore, because they refuse to talk to you without mocking you.
You let them know that you are choosing to ignore them (at which point I should have stopped responding: you should not feed trolls) because that is somewhat polite.

They keep quoting you?

that is Harassment.

Good point. I just wanna say that I don't really want to have to take sides on anything here; please argue without poisoning the well (aka arguing about something and claiming that the reason that their arguement is wrong is because of the person himself) and making fallacies all day and don't argue to the point where we all get banned permanently or something. Don't send this thread to K-town guys. (not directed at anyone).

Edited by luxebo, 01 February 2014 - 01:40 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

For repeated HARRASMENT

Harassment =/= Disagreeing with someone's opinion.
Replying to posts =/= Harassment.
Being told you are wrong =/= Harassment.

It is hilarious you think otherwise. You literally want to post, unhindered, bad ideas in a strategy forum and don't want to get countered. That's all that is happening here. Since you have no logical argument, you're now trying this.

This is ridiculous and nothing is going to come from it, man, except a chuckle. I already counter-reported you to clarify the situation.

Again, if you don't want people replying and even disagreeing with you, stay away from internet forums in general. It's never going to happen.

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

We never said you were outright wrong, we said there are OTHER OPTIONS.

The Meta mechs are not so powerful they cannot be beaten by the non-meta mechs EVEN WITH MEDIOCRE PILOTS.

Nobody ever said otherwise.

A pilot of equal skill in a Hunchback and a Shadow Hawk will result in a Shadow Hawk victory almost every time. That is all I have ever said. Also, I think it's good to repeatedly explain to newbies why this is the case so they do not waste their time, effort, and maybe even real money on a 'mech that's 2nd rate when they could spend a similar amount on something they'll actually enjoy and will last them.

I'm not going to roll over and ignore your posts extolling the virtues of these 'mechs for that reason. It's my hope a newbie reading this thread will read this argument and make an informed decision that would be skewed if your points weren't argued.

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

You put someone on ignore, because they refuse to talk to you without mocking you.

Saying you are entirely wrong about some things is not mockery. Sometimes you say some really inaccurate things, though.

Shar Wolf, on 01 February 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

You let them know that you are choosing to ignore them (at which point I should have stopped responding: you should not feed trolls) because that is somewhat polite.

They keep quoting you?

that is Harassment.

Quoting people is harassment? Welp.

Spoiler

Shh... it's not.

Apparently in Shar's view if you say "You are going on the ignore list, troll!" that person should go "OH NOOOOO" and never, ever reply to any part they have in an active discussion that you are apart of again, because.. because... uhhh...

PS: I find it hilarious you keep quoting me while stating quoting people is harassment. That's just ... something.

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 February 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[TercieI]

luxebo, on 01 February 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

I gotta see this 4LL Hunchie, it sounds dumb but maybe it could work if those units were really good at torso twist.

I was going to ask the same thing. What does this build look like?

(This is a serious question, all my attempts to spec it out make it seem both slow and hot)

Edited by Terciel1976, 01 February 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[Victor Morson]

luxebo, on 01 February 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Good point. I just wanna say that I don't really want to have to take sides on anything here; please argue without poisoning the well (aka arguing about something and claiming that the reason that their arguement is wrong is because of the person himself) and making fallacies all day and don't argue to the point where we all get banned permanently or something. Don't send this thread to K-town guys. (not directed at anyone).

I think the only one taking this personally is Shar Wolf. I seriously would reply to anyone saying the same things with the same replies I've made, but somehow he's taking it as a personal attack because it's his ideas being disagreed with.

There was no need to dragging reporting people and wild claims of "Trolls!" into this, and honestly, he's the only one. I'm just here to discuss strategies and reply with what I've learned from experience, which often runs counter to what a handful of folks are saying here.

Like I said, I have no reason to make this personal. At all. It blows my mind anyone would jump into a conversation and then take it very personally when what they say isn't agreed with. Being told something is a bad idea is not mockery.

Let's get this back on topic, shalt we?

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 February 2014 - 01:49 PM.

[Victor Morson]

luxebo, on 01 February 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

HBK-4G is faster, though then again my argument is then destroyed by the Shad which would be even faster...

I would say Grid Iron would take the throne of being worst of the Hunchies. It's stupid.

We can definitely agree there. Grid Iron is pretty bad. I'm not sure it's Golden Boy or Pretty Baby bad, but it is very bad.

I was so hoping for jumping Hunchback as the hero. That could have been rad and with the right setup, maybe even been a serious contender again.

luxebo, on 01 February 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

I gotta see this 4LL Hunchie, it sounds dumb but maybe it could work if those units were really good at torso twist.

I agree it sounds pretty dumb; I don't have the build handy because I don't run Hunchbacks in general. I've run a similar setup on the Treb and I can definitely appreciate the damage output - it averages an easy 600+ a round because it's basically a low priority target that can rack up huge damage if ignored for too long, just firing 2 & 2.

The Hunchback again is popular because of the whole asymmetrical thing, and again it's a proven build, but I seriously lean towards the 5J. The asymmetrical designs have huge advantages (Dragon Slayer & Highlander 733C are proof of that) but in this case, I think it's a little too easy to blast.

luxebo, on 01 February 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Guys, I understand that Vic isn't the most popular dude here due to his ways of showing his competitive viewpoint of the game, but reporting him for at least showing his viewpoint of a situation, that's a bit too far, no? He means good, although maybe a bit rough at times.

Yeah, I might be a bit harsh folks, but I do find reporting people over their viewpoints way over the top. I've never reported anyone for a viewpoint; in fact I've only reported one person in my entire time on the forums, and they were way obnoxious and were clearly trolling.

Edited by Victor Morson, 01 February 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[1453 R]

What Shar is saying, Victor, is that the Hunchback has superior torso twist and pitch rates/ranges than the Shadow Hawk. The argument being made is that a pilot who values a wider twist/pitch range in a close brawl might opt for the Hunchback over the Shadow hawk because the Shawk has a demonstrably {Scrap} torso pitch, as well as less twist than the Hunchback.

Are these advantages enough to make the Hunchback better than the Shadow Hawk at...honestly, just about anything? No, not really. But they are a point in the Hunchback's favor and a reason some pilots prefer the shorter, more physically flexible 'Mech. Personally, I don't think the extra movement range on the Hunchback is worth the multitude of disadvantages it suffers from compared to the Shadow Hawk, and the increased torso twist is at least partially nullified by the Shawk's jump jet-enhanced mobility.

Shar: ...please. Ask yourself if you really think the Hunchback is a better 'Mech for most anything than the Shadow Hawk is? There are times when some minor +1 on a design just doesn't outweigh the half a dozen +5s on its nearest competitor. If someone came up to me and said "I'm new, and I want a medium. Which one should I get?" I would never recommend a Hunchback over a Shawk. And realistically, neither would you, eh?

[1453 R]

ALSO:

Maybe something like this?

Knowing what I know about the top-player leagues and their blazing, seething hatred of XL engines, this is the best I could come up with for making the thing work with a STD-type engine. This is the best distribution I can come up with for maximizing heat sink count while not being groin-clenchingly slow. Yeah, you get a lot of extra weight by dropping back down to the 200STD the thing comes with, but really...really...does anyone stick with that engine? Q_Q

Anyways. Actually...I could almost see this, having played some rounds with the Large Lasers 3L. This looks to act exactly the same way, just exchanging the ECM and light 'Mech speed/agility for double the firepower. If I bothered with Hunchbacks/didn't have much better 'Mechs for doing this kind of thing (TDR-5SS, go!), I might have honestly given it a try. As it stands...oh well. Heh, maybe I'll try it on my TBT-5J. Anything that makes Victor praise a Trebuchet even in the slightest is worth a look.