511 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

More often than not when I see players calling something "op" or some such it's simply a matter of "I got killed by (insert a bandwagon here) so this must be "op"
or
"This (insert bandwagon here) is "op" because I play a lot of 12 mans (or just happen to meet a lot of good coordinated teams) and it's used with great efficiency and coordination so it needs to be nerfed because I got killed and see it a lot"

You have to make a decision at some point. You're either going to continue catering to the lowest common denominator and keep dumbing things down which will drive away existing players who wanted something more

or

You can stop and say look, we've equaled things out. Balance is in a good spot. We can no longer nerf things and keep a long-term interest in the game because it will be too easy. It's time to learn to play the game a bit better and learn how to adapt to the systems in place.

[Sandpit]

Prezimonto, on 27 January 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

In game voice communication would also be huge, and is IMO one of the most glaring things missing from this game (you know... other than a reason to play other than pure killing each other).

uhm I agree with you. I have a post or two in the two days since that post stating just that.....

It's not a matter of enjoyment. It's a matter of all these duplicate threads accomplish nothing but causing confusion and making it hard to have a meaningful exchange of ideas because as soon as that happens you have 3-4 duplicate threads all repeating the exact same things said in another thread

[Asmudius Heng]

I frequently see premades on both sides and I hope the matchmaker does this on purpose.

If your own team has premades too you have an advantage, the more premades there are the more chance pugs get matched with some more coordinated groups to help them.

Love your premades puggers, they are there to try and win the game with you too ...

[Prezimonto]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

More often than not when I see players calling something "op" or some such it's simply a matter of "I got killed by (insert a bandwagon here) so this must be "op"
or
"This (insert bandwagon here) is "op" because I play a lot of 12 mans (or just happen to meet a lot of good coordinated teams) and it's used with great efficiency and coordination so it needs to be nerfed because I got killed and see it a lot"

You have to make a decision at some point. You're either going to continue catering to the lowest common denominator and keep dumbing things down which will drive away existing players who wanted something more

or

You can stop and say look, we've equaled things out. Balance is in a good spot. We can no longer nerf things and keep a long-term interest in the game because it will be too easy. It's time to learn to play the game a bit better and learn how to adapt to the systems in place.

The thing people have to remember is that balance can go in both directions. It's inheirant to the word balance. That means buffs should be used in combination with nerfs.

The other thing people confuse with balance is a stale meta game. PPC and AC's might be perfectly fine individually... together maybe they're a problem, or maybe they're just efficient. The solution may be to help out LRMs/SRMs/lasers when used in combos.

And that's just one example. Anything that shakes up the meta game every few months might look like balance... and might really be much of a balance, but is making the game a lot more fun.

Case and point... NARC changes... small change... huge potential to upset the meta game and redistribute relative usage of weapons.

Edited by Prezimonto, 27 January 2014 - 04:24 PM.

[Sandpit]

Prezimonto, on 27 January 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

The thing people have to remember is that balance can go in both directions. It's inheirant to the word balance. That means buffs should be used in combination with nerfs.

The other thing people confuse with balance is a stale meta game. PPC and AC's might be perfectly fine individually... together maybe they're a problem, or maybe they're just efficient. The solution may be to help out LRMs/SRMs/lasers when used in combos.

And that's just one example. Anything that shakes up the meta game every few months might look like balance... and might really be much of a balance, but is making the game a lot more fun.

Case and point... NARC changes... small change... huge potential to upset the meta game and redistribute relative usage of weapons.

and I agree 100% with you. Stop calling for a nerf every time you get beat by something. Look at other things that could use some adjustment up.

Balance definitely goes both ways. When you nerf something in a case like you stated then you're changing a LOT more than just nerfing the meta. You're making those weapons far less useful in single situations. A lot of times stuff is called "op" because they're used in high numbers and with extreme coordination. Those calling for a nerf don't ever stop to think about what affect taht would have on the low end of the spectrum and how it might make something completely useless UNLESS used in high numbers with extreme coordination

[Nick Makiaveli]

Roland, on 26 January 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

I think you misunderstand my position.

I'm saying that everyone gets thrown into the "real" queue, which allows anyone to play regardless of group size.

Let the folks who are afraid of the premades go play in a solo queue. And then in the real queue, we can play with as many folks in our group as we want, without arbitrary player limits.

I think I see your point, but I think losing a few to not doing it would lead to more people in the "real" queue that splitting it up.

Roland, on 26 January 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

Your opinion is ridiculous though.
By your thinking, they should just get rid of feature suggestions, because of an idea had merit, pgi would already have done it.

And your logic is atrocious. An idea can have merit, but still not be adopted by the smartest people around. Why? Because the negatives could still outweigh the positives. Also, just because it would benefit the players, doesn't mean it would benefit the company.

Basskicker, on 26 January 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I think you listened in on 1 too many CoD or Halo MP games. Yea you're going to have the trolls, but honestly there is no way to be rid of them... Most players in this game are probably on average 10 years older than the average CoD or Halo player, so for the most part I think we would have a decent level of maturity.

Plus a good integrated VoIP would have the option of muting certain players if they became a little to eccentric. Otherwise why do you think Halo and CoD have been so successful? Surely all the older, more mature players would have quit a long time ago if they had to listen to some 6 year old call someone a B¡@+¢|-| four hundred times a match.

Actually the only Halo MP I've ever done was on Xboxes (and yes I mean the original of both). Never played any CoD MP and very little SP.

I have, however been on this world for over 45 years, and been a gamer since the mid-70's. Fooled with computers since they had 16K of RAM. People are stupid. Young people are worse. Anonymous people make me root for the Swine Flu.

I oppose in-game VOIP mostly because I think it would be a waste of time, and because people then blame/accuse anyone not on it of being in a pre-made, and all losses would be blamed on pre-mades not using the same comms etc.

[Nightcrept]

All of this is mute because we don't have the player population to run two queues.

In a perfect system you would have pugs only and a pre-made filled out with pug queues.


Figure out how to grow the player base and then we can figure out how to fix the other issues.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Nightcrept, on 27 January 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

All of this is mute because we don't have the player population to run two queues.

In a perfect system you would have pugs only and a pre-made filled out with pug queues.


Figure out how to grow the player base and then we can figure out how to fix the other issues.

Yeah getting to the point where I agree with this.

I'm beginning to think the only way to fix this is if PGI gets axed, or at least does a very public firing of their lead people and immediately institutes lobbies.

The people who left for Star Citizen still want this game to succeed, you can tell. So if they had a reason to come back I think they would.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Why not find some middle ground and make premades of 4 always queue for both regular and 12-man queue? This gives the 4 man groups that are out to farm kills a taste of their own medicine, gives a greater challenge for organized 4 mans who seek more organized warfare, and helps to create an chance fro 12 man groups to find matches. Seems like a fair change to me.

I am all for splitting the queues myself though, my worst memories in gaming come from premade stompfests in Halo BTB where the opposing team would use their majority vote to secure an objective based gametype like CTF then proceed to BLATANTLY farm kills to pad their precious stats and only win the game just before the time limit runs out. Absolutely despicable display of poor sportsmanship...

[Mudhutwarrior]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 27 January 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Why not find some middle ground and make premades of 4 always queue for both regular and 12-man queue? This gives the 4 man groups that are out to farm kills a taste of their own medicine, gives a greater challenge for organized 4 mans who seek more organized warfare, and helps to create an chance fro 12 man groups to find matches. Seems like a fair change to me.

I am all for splitting the queues myself though, my worst memories in gaming come from premade stompfests in Halo BTB where the opposing team would use their majority vote to secure an objective based gametype like CTF then proceed to BLATANTLY farm kills to pad their precious stats and only win the game just before the time limit runs out. Absolutely despicable display of poor sportsmanship...

I like it, Great idea is 12 mans are short all the time. Use premades as fill there so they can learn too.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 26 January 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

pugs vs premades isnt balanced. so yes it is better to segregate the player base in order to balance games better.

I don't see it this way Kho. My PUG Alts are at or around .500 both W/L and K/D. There is no reason to separate the community.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 27 January 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Why not find some middle ground and make premades of 4 always queue for both regular and 12-man queue? This gives the 4 man groups that are out to farm kills a taste of their own medicine, gives a greater challenge for organized 4 mans who seek more organized warfare, and helps to create an chance fro 12 man groups to find matches. Seems like a fair change to me.

I am all for splitting the queues myself though, my worst memories in gaming come from premade stompfests in Halo BTB where the opposing team would use their majority vote to secure an objective based gametype like CTF then proceed to BLATANTLY farm kills to pad their precious stats and only win the game just before the time limit runs out. Absolutely despicable display of poor sportsmanship...

I would support this. So long as if 12 mans are full 4 mans can drop in PUG still. Sorry but this game is meant to be payed by groups of players with individuals filling the gaps. It has been repeated by the DEVs on many occasions.

[3rdworld]

Nightcrept, on 27 January 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

All of this is mute because we don't have the player population to run two queues.

In a perfect system you would have pugs only and a pre-made filled out with pug queues.


Figure out how to grow the player base and then we can figure out how to fix the other issues.

I agree. As many Failed to find Matches, as I get, there is no way the game could support more queues.

[Blackadder]

Nick Makiaveli, on 27 January 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

I oppose in-game VOIP mostly because I think it would be a waste of time, and because people then blame/accuse anyone not on it of being in a pre-made, and all losses would be blamed on pre-mades not using the same comms etc.

In game voice is not really needed, but is a nice feature. however, the current level of communication between players falls into one of two categories. Non existent, or 3rd party VOIP. Having VOIP is such an advantage because the normal communication templates do not exist in MWO, as opposed to other PVP style games, both F2P and FPS titles.

To attempt to say that get on TS3,Mumble, Ventrillo etc, to actually use teamwork does of this game does not need social interaction in game will only ensure it continues to alienate a portion of the potential player base, and will stunt potential growth and retention of potential and existing player base long term.

[wanderer]

Quote

I don't see it this way Kho. My PUG Alts are at or around .500 both W/L and K/D. There is no reason to separate the community.

And I'm assuming your main isn't.

Are you doing better in premades? Don't most people? If so, then the premade has a measurable non-ELO based advantage over the PUG and should be segregated, or else it's screwing ELO matchmaking further.

Basically, four-man/syncdropping groups are artificially lowering their ELO vs. a PUG group- being as they usually have comms/reliable lancemates and the PUG is stuck with potluck. And y'know what else?

When players have alts to PUG WITH so their stats don't get degraded is a flashing neon sign that PUGs are not at all the same as premades, other than the former is predated on by the latter for better stats.

[Novakaine]

PGI has already killed the team experience.
So no need.

[Mr 144]

wanderer, on 28 January 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

And I'm assuming your main isn't.

Are you doing better in premades? Don't most people? If so, then the premade has a measurable non-ELO based advantage over the PUG and should be segregated, or else it's screwing ELO matchmaking further.

Basically, four-man/syncdropping groups are artificially lowering their ELO vs. a PUG group- being as they usually have comms/reliable lancemates and the PUG is stuck with potluck. And y'know what else?

When players have alts to PUG WITH so their stats don't get degraded is a flashing neon sign that PUGs are not at all the same as premades, other than the former is predated on by the latter for better stats.

Nope...statisticly, I do worse in pre-mades....although perception sometimes dictates otherwise.

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 28 January 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

And I'm assuming your main isn't.

Are you doing better in premades? Don't most people? If so, then the premade has a measurable non-ELO based advantage over the PUG and should be segregated, or else it's screwing ELO matchmaking further.

Basically, four-man/syncdropping groups are artificially lowering their ELO vs. a PUG group- being as they usually have comms/reliable lancemates and the PUG is stuck with potluck. And y'know what else?

When players have alts to PUG WITH so their stats don't get degraded is a flashing neon sign that PUGs are not at all the same as premades, other than the former is predated on by the latter for better stats.

I am doing just a couple points better as Joe as I am my PUGs, Created 2 PUG Accounts to see how Elo stacked up as a PUG compared to a Team player. One thing that I found most interesting. No matter how many hours I played, I ran into Lawmen next to never! The common names I see as a 4man are fliers on my Alt Accounts. So I would imagine, my person Elo is somewhat below the average for my fellow Lawmen. Joe's Elo is inflated by being with better players than I am. Evidenced by me not facing the same players on my Alts as I ace as a Lawman. Also I have been losing W/L an KDR points at a slow pace on Joe as many Lawmen are off playing different games. I lost 0.03 KDR and 4% over the last few months PUGging with Joe.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 January 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

I am doing just a couple points better as Joe as I am my PUGs, Created 2 PUG Accounts to see how Elo stacked up as a PUG compared to a Team player. One thing that I found most interesting. No matter how many hours I played, I ran into Lawmen next to never! The common names I see as a 4man are fliers on my Alt Accounts. So I would imagine, my person Elo is somewhat below the average for my fellow Lawmen. Joe's Elo is inflated by being with better players than I am. Evidenced by me not facing the same players on my Alts as I ace as a Lawman. Also I have been losing W/L an KDR points at a slow pace on Joe as many Lawmen are off playing different games. I lost 0.03 KDR and 4% over the last few months PUGging with Joe.

Saw this kind of post many times so i did the same and created a new account. Soon after my noob bonus I saw the same people I always see. So sorry I don't believe a word of it.

As far as the guys who do as well or worse on a premade I am on the fence. Reason? For what I see using concentrated fire on a team reduces your individual score. Most severe stomps the damage is spread pretty evenly across 8 men. When i run with premades (decent ones) I find that I better be in a fast mech or there will be nothing to fire at. Its worst in my atlas that will do 700-900 all day long but when in the hot premade mix i am lucky to get a shot off if at all. Everyone is dead before i get there. And yes kiddies that is a full on stomp.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 28 January 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Saw this kind of post many times so i did the same and created a new account. Soon after my noob bonus I saw the same people I always see. So sorry I don't believe a word of it.

As far as the guys who do as well or worse on a premade I am on the fence. Reason? For what I see using concentrated fire on a team reduces your individual score. Most severe stomps the damage is spread pretty evenly across 8 men. When i run with premades (decent ones) I find that I better be in a fast mech or there will be nothing to fire at. Its worst in my atlas that will do 700-900 all day long but when in the hot premade mix i am lucky to get a shot off if at all. Everyone is dead before i get there. And yes kiddies that is a full on stomp.

Did you have Months an months playing as a Premade? I started PUGging the same time you registered, As Anton I don't hardly see a name I regularly see as a Lawman. So it is quite possible your Mud Elo is not changed enough to see different names. I had months of drops in group drops can you claim the same?

Serious question, nothing being implied. If you didn't ave a lot of group drops to begin with you may not have that different an Elo score for your 2 accounts.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 January 2014 - 10:54 AM.