511 replies to this topic

[Mr 144]

Mystere, on 31 January 2014 - 09:48 PM, said:

Analog Movement Controls + Speech-to-Text Software = Profit!

And you have this working in-game? Genuinely curious, but I'll leave you with some snark...

Put up, or shut up

[Holding in your farts]

If I had a choice to drop in a random team only queue I would do it exclusively.

Edited by A banana in the tailpipe, 01 February 2014 - 02:02 PM.

[Xtrekker]

Joseph Mallan, on 01 February 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

A team game should not cater to individuals. I the idea is that teamwork will win a game then the player base should want to have that advantage. Having VOiP would give PUGs the ability to communicate as well as Pre mades, but pre mades will have the advantage of working together longer in most cases. When I PUG I don't expect to win as often as I do when grouped. and I accept that truth. Once we have an actual game to play, there may be a solo only que. But for now, with this mere skeleton of a game, PUGs have to wear some thicker skin, and I have PUGged way more than played as a Lawman fr the last 6-8 months.

This is a tool of teamwork. This isn't teamwork. It's a tactical advantage that makes the absolute difference in this game.

Bah, I'm done. No point in even responding to this elitist {Scrap} anymore. I've never seen people argue so much about such an unsportsmanlike position. "We're better than you, but playing against actual teams? No no no, can't have that. The more logical position is you solos grow thicker skin and accept your inferior role as our whipping boys." I bet it feels great when your 4-man rolls over that (c) trying to figure out how to group his weapons. Your logic is...biased and flawed, sir.

[Khobai]

Quote

If I had a choice to drop in a random team only queue I would do it exclusively.

Everyone who pugs would choose that option. The only people who dont want that are the ones abusing 4mans.

Quote

This is a tool of teamwork. This isn't teamwork. It's a tactical advantage that makes the absolute difference in this game.

Exactly. Its an advantage premades have that pugs dont have. If we had in-voice chat and the ability to see eachothers loadouts it would be a non-issue.

Yes its a team game. But allowing certain players to play like a team while denying that same ability to other players is just unfair. Its also one of the major reasons ELO doesnt actually work. If you have a 4-man on TS vs 4 PUGs, even if they have similar ELO, the 4-man on TS is going to win most of the time by virtue of being able to play better as a team.

PGI needs to level the playing field. Either get rid of premades entirely or give pugs the same advantages premades have.

Edited by Khobai, 01 February 2014 - 02:29 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

Some...interesting statements on this page.
Me and my unit mates do not ever, in anyway deliberately "farm pugs." We bring what mechs we find fun and don't min/max to the nth degree.All we do is join the random que as four friends, thats it.

We don't want to face meta hugging super pro teams who left the concept of fun far behind, all decked out in their PPC/AC20/PPC or AC40 lolwagons. We just want to play the normal game with friends. Having a pug only que would remove that option. Want to play with your mates? You have to face whole teams full of meta mechs all spamming Art/AS at you every cd possible.
One of the main reasons pugs get rolled by 4 mans is the concept of self. If my lancemate is about to die, I'll step in front of him and take the hits that would have killed him. If I need to push I'll break cover and push, because I KNOW they will be at my side. If I ask that target "G" needs hitting I know that is the target they will hit.
In short, thats not just voice that enables that, it's the real advantage-the really OP thing you can "exploit" in a team environment. That thing?
Trust.
A pugger first thinks
"If that guys dies it's ok, I'm alive"
"If I push, I might die"
"If I follow him, I might die and get nothing"
"I won't cap-I'll get little rewards-better to die and do more damage-even if the team loses"
"If I shoot at that mech he's asking me to, it might focus me-and I might get taken out early"
"I don't want to lead-I'll get blamed"
"I don't want any responsibility-I'll wait till he goes"

And on and on and on.....this is primarily why puggers lose to 4 mans and the like. It's not just because of faster communication, it's because they play for each other-pugs play for the self. No amount of separate ques or voice comms for randoms will ever change this. Until the playerbase removes the "I" and "me" and "my" out of their thought process-it'll just keep on happening.

[wanderer]

kamiko kross, on 01 February 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

And on and on and on.....this is primarily why puggers lose to 4 mans and the like. It's not just because of faster communication, it's because they play for each other-pugs play for the self. No amount of separate ques or voice comms for randoms will ever change this. Until the playerbase removes the "I" and "me" and "my" out of their thought process-it'll just keep on happening.

When you have no idea of what anyone is doing save "I", and sit in silence because people are too busy trying to fight to type...guess who you think about.

[Mystere]

A banana in the tailpipe, on 01 February 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

If I had a choice to drop in a random team only queue I would do it exclusively.

Khobai, on 01 February 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

Everyone who pugs would choose that option. The only people who dont want that are the ones abusing 4mans.

I miss the old random (i.e. dumb) "matchmaker". Unfortunately, many could not stomach being whooped by the 8-man boogeymen.

[Jon Gotham]

wanderer, on 01 February 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

When you have no idea of what anyone is doing save "I", and sit in silence because people are too busy trying to fight to type...guess who you think about.

Don't try to twist my words to fit your argument. You know what I meant. Even with voip, it WILL still happen just as often. The only thing that changes that is KNOWING your team mates, forgoing the self in favour of the team. Only friends do that regularly.
That will not happen in a pug. End of.

[Roadbeer]

I'm all for it.

Do you have any idea how nice it would be, to drop on Terra Therma, and not automatically watch half of Bravo and all of Charlie lance zergherd themselves into the PUGZAPPER?

Happy days son, happy days.

[Sandpit]

Roadbeer, on 01 February 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

I'm all for it.

Do you have any idea how nice it would be, to drop on Terra Therma, and not automatically watch half of Bravo and all of Charlie lance zergherd themselves into the PUGZAPPER?

Happy days son, happy days.

or better yet,

head towards a tactical spot to flank or draw attention and instead of
"Ok guys, we're holding them back, push because we can only hold here for so long"
to be met with
Watching 8 teammates run around in circles trying to kill a spider while the rest of the enemy team rolls over the top of you and then listen to the teammates who ran in circles for 5 minutes complain that you're the reason they lost?

Everyone always blames premades for
losing
roflstomps
ggclose
not having separate queues
etc.

They never stop to think that PGI has done everything they've asked regarding premades and pugs with the exception of separate queues since OB(Hmmmm...... I guess the premades hold some psychic jedi mind powers over PGI, it must be out "elitist" status)
. They never stop to notice that those who drop in premades have no dictation over their opponents. it's just "premades beat me, I'm going to QQ about it and point at them and call them names and blame them for my loss, MWO, and world poverty"

I honestly wish they would give them separate queues for a while so then they could just moan and groan and wail and flail that it's the elo and MM system causing their losses instead of premades, because we all know they'd still get stomped from time to time and we all know there's absolutely NO WAY it could have ANYTHING to do with their skills, tactics, builds, mech choice, loadouts, etc.
It would have to be PGI's fault somehow....

[wanderer]

kamiko kross, on 01 February 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

Don't try to twist my words to fit your argument. You know what I meant. Even with voip, it WILL still happen just as often. The only thing that changes that is KNOWING your team mates, forgoing the self in favour of the team. Only friends do that regularly.
That will not happen in a pug. End of.

I disagree, strongly. The culture of "I" in PUGs is fertilized daily by seeing your fellow PUG players stumble around, randomly exploding and rarely working in concert unless someone's dumb enough to stumble across four of them at once. Without a word. Nary a curse, even. You are nearly in a void, for without VOIP you can't even try to say something while frantically operating your keyboard to try and live longer- or you're locking half your controls while trying not to say WWWWWWWWWWW as the inevitable predictable pause gets your engine blown out your back armor.

There is barren ground for teamwork, because teamwork requires reliable communication. Give the PUG communication, and while he may not be a well-honed lance, he will no longer be a half-blind, deaf mob that stumbles into your sights, unaware of his fellow warning him he's heading into an ECM-shrouded trap. Will they all take advantage? No. Can't make them. But the ones that want to help the team will be able to without crippling their own operations, and others will take advantage of that. Ad hoc lances and teamwork will function, even if it's not quite up to the level of some premades- and 3,4,5 working together make an immense difference even if the remaining 7-9 are barely better than AI-driven targets.

Sacrifice is effective when you know others will capitalize on it, otherwise, it's just volunteering to die first so you can spectate longer.

[Screech]

Roadbeer, on 01 February 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

I'm all for it.

Do you have any idea how nice it would be, to drop on Terra Therma, and not automatically watch half of Bravo and all of Charlie lance zergherd themselves into the PUGZAPPER?

Happy days son, happy days.

I believe that was the sentiment in December 2012 when they were splitting out the 8-mans. I believe they went with a Bon Voyage meme with a cruise ship of some sort.

Hopefully April will have the needed fixes.

[Jon Gotham]

Wanderer, I wish I could share in your over optimistic view of people. Mine comes from over ten years of watching this exact behavior regardless of comms on offer. I just feel the current gaming audience is just too self centred to provide what you seek.
You say lack of info causes it, I have been in countless games where info has been streaming in...yet peeps STILL will not move because they might be the first one to die. No one wants that, so they'll wait and wait for anyone else to take the risk for them.
My most recent two mmo title I played, WOT and WT are prime examples of that. WOT has built in voip........
I'm just saying that you won't get what you think you'll get from it-don't be to unhappy when you realise it.
I also, don't want to be forced into playing vs other premades exclusively either...most of them don't play to our relaxed level and meta hug to a ruthless degree. There are no separate ques for 4 mans in WOT or WT.....
I still feel the best way is to even out each premade on each team. NOT separate them. It's not about an advantage-it's about being able to just chill out with your friends.

[dario03]

kamiko kross, on 01 February 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

Wanderer, I wish I could share in your over optimistic view of people. Mine comes from over ten years of watching this exact behavior regardless of comms on offer. I just feel the current gaming audience is just too self centred to provide what you seek.
You say lack of info causes it, I have been in countless games where info has been streaming in...yet peeps STILL will not move because they might be the first one to die. No one wants that, so they'll wait and wait for anyone else to take the risk for them.
My most recent two mmo title I played, WOT and WT are prime examples of that. WOT has built in voip........
I'm just saying that you won't get what you think you'll get from it-don't be to unhappy when you realise it.
I also, don't want to be forced into playing vs other premades exclusively either...most of them don't play to our relaxed level and meta hug to a ruthless degree. There are no separate ques for 4 mans in WOT or WT.....
I still feel the best way is to even out each premade on each team. NOT separate them. It's not about an advantage-it's about being able to just chill out with your friends.

Playing with people you know is definitely a big advantage and they are of course more likely to work together and actually not even need as much communication to do so. However having voice comms with random people could help. Not everybody is going to work together but it would be easier to get them to if we were on voice. I've played games with built in voice comms and games that didn't have voice comms but was modded by people to put you on the same team if you joined a TS channel. And it was possible to get the teams to work together. In the game that had TS added to it (and thus most players weren't on it) a small group was enough to completely throw off the balance. I remember in 24v24 battles a group of 4-6 would make every game lopsided even if nobody in the group knew each other.

Edited by dario03, 01 February 2014 - 08:51 PM.

[HeavyRain]

kamiko kross, on 01 February 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

I also, don't want to be forced into playing vs other premades exclusively either...most of them don't play to our relaxed level and meta hug to a ruthless degree.

The difference between your casual premade group of friends and the tryhard metasploiting group of ggclosers is exactly the same as the difference between 4 solo players and your casual premade group of friends who are on TS and have learned to play together and know what mechs the group is bringing to the game.

[Sandpit]

HeavyRain, on 01 February 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

The difference between your casual premade group of friends and the tryhard metasploiting group of ggclosers is exactly the same as the difference between 4 solo players and your casual premade group of friends who are on TS and have learned to play together and know what mechs the group is bringing to the game.

[Ghogiel]

Loads of players just get caught in the middle of the high elo wars.

Most metahumpers switch out to **** mechs like orions and tbolts all the time. But usually leave a VTR, STKM, or HGN in the group because you might just get another good premade on the other team...and as soon as that happens pretty much everyone switches out from those CDAs to CTFs for the next round just in case you sync with them again.

ggclose I guess

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Ghogiel, on 02 February 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

Loads of players just get caught in the middle of the high elo wars.

QFT.



ggclose

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Yeah I always get a kick out of dropping with Ghogiel or people I know have high ELO's.

I don't instantly give up, but I change my play style knowing how bad it's going to be.

[Ghogiel]

IV Amen, on 02 February 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

QFT.



ggclose

what's nuts is the very next round Carnage dropped and we picked up Profiteer (the highest scoring player on the losing team in the image above, fl4ash was a random solo player and not in our 3man) and we synced with LORDS on the same team again!

Only team to beat us that night was LORDS.