81 replies to this topic

[Black Arachne]

Greets to the Community,

Finally was able to grind enough credits to buy one of my favorite mechs from when I was younger. The AWS-9M which was piloted by Major Adam Steiner, and a mech I always had in my lance when playing battlemecn but there seems to be something very wrong with it. When I took out on the battlefield, my mech shutdown within a few seconds of firing. My first shot with the ER-PPC's sent my heat too around 90%, and when the weapons were ready to fire again. My mech shutdown and sustained damage to the center torso. This was roughly about 6 seconds of gameplay.

So I decided to take a look at the awesome in the mechlab just to make sure everything looked fine. The mech has the right amount of heatsinks (20 DHS) and the engine rating is also correct. I also took the mech to the training grounds and tried firing just 2 of ERPPC's but the mech was still shutting down, the only difference is that it lasted about 10 seconds. Then I tried a single PPC, the mech was capable of sustaining its fire with just 1 weapon. This can't be right. Took the mech back to the mechlab, pulled everything off and back on and took it into a live game. Same problem, I am unable to sustain fire only I use a single PPC, using 2 or 3 was forcing my mech to shut down and get destroyed. It feels like I am unable to even defend myself against other mechs that are firing ballistics non-stop. Other thing I noticed, that very few mechs were even using ERPPC, a few had PPC's but they were also shutting down from sustain fire but were lasting a lot longer then I was.

Can a dev or someone explain what's going on here?

Edited by Black Arachne, 29 January 2014 - 01:23 PM.

[Josef Nader]

If you fire more than 2 PPCs or ERPPCs in a single volley, the amount of heat they generate increases above and beyond what they would normally generate. This is a balancing mechanic known by the playerbase as "ghost heat" designed to limit the amount of any single weapon you can fire at once.

You can avoid the extra heat generation by putting your third ERPPC on a second weapon group and firing it about a half-second later. This works for PPCs as well. You can use this website to look at the values of the weapons and what thresholds ghost heat occurs at for different weapons. Scroll down to see the ghost heat list.

In addition, ERPPCs are extremely hot in MWO, to the point of non-viability. I would highly recommend dropping them down to standard PPCs, despite the minimum range problem, and volley firing them in a 2/1/2/1 pattern about a second or so apart. If you want to keep at least one ERPPC, I'd leave the one in the arm for long range shots. Other than that, you're going to have a very hard time managing your heat with 3 ERPPCs, even without the ghost heat penalty.

Signed,

A fellow Awesome Enthusiast.

Edited by Josef Nader, 29 January 2014 - 01:30 PM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Black Arachne, on 29 January 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

can someone explain what's going on here?

The explanation is that the exploits of Major Adam Steiner and his 9M were greatly exaggerated.

[dario03]

Well that does sound hotter than I thought they were but PPC and ERPPC do run very hot. They are at 13 and 15 heat compared to Large Laser and ERLL at 7 and 8.5. Also there is a couple of things that are different in this game.
1. faster firing than TT, dhs doing 1.4x cooling instead of 2x, though I believe a higher heat cap, so mechs don't build heat the same as TT.
2. Ghost heat - different weapons will get additional heat if you fire a certain number of the same type of weapon within 0.5 seconds of each other. PPC and ERPPC count as the same type and the limit is 2 so if you fire 3 or more of them at the same time you get extra heat, 4 even more, 5 even more, so on, so on.

This site will show you how much extra heat (almost double if you fire 3 ERPPC) and is also good for building mechs and checking a bunch of stuff.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale

Edited by dario03, 29 January 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[Deathlike]

The first problem you are facing: Ghost heat.

Ghost heat will add heat to your mech when using more than 2 PPCs at a time.

The second problem you are facing: Low heat dissipation

DHS outside of the engine are only 40% more efficient than SHS (both in cooling and additional capacity), and in-engine DHS is the only true source of double cooling. Don't ask me why or how they came up with this system.

In sum, you'll never be able to run those weapons "efficiently" as possible, due to how PGI designed the heat system.

For a 9M, consider going for a 325 or 350XL engine and stuff additional heatsinks (you want something along the line of 22-24 DHS total) to handle 1 ERPPC + 1 PPC or 2 ERPPC.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 January 2014 - 01:40 PM.

[Black Arachne]

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

If you fire more than 2 PPCs or ERPPCs in a single volley, the amount of heat they generate increases above and beyond what they would normally generate. This is a balancing mechanic known by the playerbase as "ghost heat" designed to limit the amount of any single weapon you can fire at once.

You can avoid the extra heat generation by putting your third ERPPC on a second weapon group and firing it about a half-second later. This works for PPCs as well. You can use this website to look at the values of the weapons and what thresholds ghost heat occurs at for different weapons. Scroll down to see the ghost heat list.

In addition, ERPPCs are extremely hot in MWO, to the point of non-viability. I would highly recommend dropping them down to standard PPCs, despite the minimum range problem, and volley firing them in a 2/1/2/1 pattern about a second or so apart. If you want to keep at least one ERPPC, I'd leave the one in the arm for long range shots. Other than that, you're going to have a very hard time managing your heat with 3 ERPPCs, even without the ghost heat penalty.

Signed,

A fellow Awesome Enthusiast.

I tried that in my testing as well - I can't even sustain using 2ER-PPC's. Which should be no problem for 20 DHS. I don't understand this ghost heat, you say it's designed to limit the amount of any single weapon you can fire at once but there are several mechs firing multiple ac's at the same time and none of them ever shutdown. And why must I downgrade the mech to make it viable, isn't that up to the game developer to fix whats wrong. I feel like I wasted three days of grinding for a broken mech.

Edited by Black Arachne, 29 January 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[Deathlike]

Black Arachne, on 29 January 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

I tried that in my testing as well - I can't even sustain using 2ER-PPC's. Which should be no problem for 20 DHS. I don't understand this ghost heat, you say it's designed to limit the amount of any single weapon you can fire at once but there are several mechs firing multiple ac's at the same time and none of them ever shutdown. And why must I downgrade the mech to make it viable, isn't that up to the game developer to fix whats wrong. I feel like I wasted three days of grinding for a broken mech.

We apologize in advance because PGI hasn't made it obvious to everyone within their own game. You would need something like smurfy's mechlab to make more informed decisions.

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

[dario03]

Black Arachne, on 29 January 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

I tried that in my testing as well - I can't even sustain using 2ER-PPC's. Which should be no problem for 20 DHS. I don't understand this ghost heat, you say it's designed to limit the amount of any single weapon you can fire at once but there are several mechs firing multiple ac's at the same time and none of them ever shutdown. And why must I downgrade the mech to make it viable, isn't that up to the game developer to fix whats wrong. I feel like I wasted three days of grinding for a broken mech.

Different weapons have different ghost heat affects and AC's don't link with ghost heat. So while firing 4 AC2's will give you ghost heat firing 2 AC2's and 2AC5's won't, 2 AC20 will but 1 AC20 and 2AC2 won't. If you didn't see my edit here is a site with the info http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale

[Serpieri]

The game atm is very biased towards Ballistic weapons. I've lost count how many times I've seen mechs with energy weapons shutdown. Until Ghost heat is removed and DHS are made to actually work the way they are supposed too. Best Advice, sell the mech and buy one that has at least 2-4 ballistic slots. Oh and don't worry about running out of ammo or having it explode on you.

[FupDup]

Black Arachne, on 29 January 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

I tried that in my testing as well - I can't even sustain using 2ER-PPC's. Which should be no problem for 20 DHS. I don't understand this ghost heat, you say it's designed to limit the amount of any single weapon you can fire at once but there are several mechs firing multiple ac's at the same time and none of them ever shutdown. And why must I downgrade the mech to make it viable, isn't that up to the game developer to fix whats wrong. I feel like I wasted three days of grinding for a broken mech.

The thing about GH is that it only limits very specific weapon groups. Here is the chart to memorize:


Note that this image is missing the AC/2, which has a max alpha of 3. The nitty-gritty is that you should avoid building loadouts which exceed the "max alpha" number of any particular weapon (in this case, never mount more than 2 PPCs, just don't do it). Most ballistics are not on the system, which is why they can keep going and going (they also just deal very low heat in general). A common and effective way to exploit the system is to combine a pair of PPCs with various Autocannon calibers above the 2 rating (2 AC/5, 2 UAC/5, 1 AC/20, or maybe even 1 AC/10).


The developers and some forumites tout the "Heat Scale" as having been effective and what not, so you can expect it to stay forevermore. The most you can do is simply work around the system to build the best alpha-striking loadouts you can.

Edited by FupDup, 29 January 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Black Arachne, on 29 January 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

I tried that in my testing as well - I can't even sustain using 2ER-PPC's. Which should be no problem for 20 DHS. I don't understand this ghost heat, you say it's designed to limit the amount of any single weapon you can fire at once but there are several mechs firing multiple ac's at the same time and none of them ever shutdown. And why must I downgrade the mech to make it viable, isn't that up to the game developer to fix whats wrong. I feel like I wasted three days of grinding for a broken mech.

The weapons generate 2.5 as much heat as TT, but dissipation is the same, or lower for external DHS. They don't plan to do anything.

[Josef Nader]

Black Arachne, on 29 January 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

I tried that in my testing as well - I can't even sustain using 2ER-PPC's. Which should be no problem for 20 DHS. I don't understand this ghost heat, you say it's designed to limit the amount of any single weapon you can fire at once but there are several mechs firing multiple ac's at the same time and none of them ever shutdown. And why must I downgrade the mech to make it viable, isn't that up to the game developer to fix whats wrong. I feel like I wasted three days of grinding for a broken mech.

The 9M is anything but broken. It's a terrifying mech when built properly, but you need to understand that stock mechs don't work in this game at all.

And no, you cannot sustain fire with 2 ERPPCs with 23 DHS and nothing else. I've tried making functional ERPPC snipers. They don't exist. You can't do them.

Trust me, "downgrading" the ERPPCs to standard PPCs is going to drastically increase your damage output. If you'd like me to show you some builds optimized for MWO, I'd be more than happy to point you in the right direction.

I try my best to play most of my mechs as close to stock as possible, with a few minor tweaks to make them viable in MWO. For example, this is really close to the stock 9M build, and it's actually somewhat functional in MWO.

The other super important thing to have is pilot efficiencies. Most mechs start off pretty {Scrap} no matter what until you get those piloting efficiencies unlocked. Doubled basics make all the difference in the world, and they're the difference between shutting down like a champ and actually putting up a good fight.

There are quite a few more things I'd do to make the 9M a really solid ride, but those will certainly get you started.

[Almond Brown]

Other than smelling a badly done Smurf account here, the AC class of weapons(Ballistics) are well known to be cooler running. If you had gone to Smurfy's you would have seen that immediately. The main difference, and is currently under dispute, is the fact that Ballistics Need to carry ammo versus Energy's Heat sinks.

P.S. Btw, the erPPC @ 15 heat is the exact BT value. It runs hot for various, all well noted, other reasons.

Edited by Almond Brown, 29 January 2014 - 01:53 PM.

[dario03]

FupDup, on 29 January 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

Note that this image is missing the AC/2, which has a max alpha of 3. The nitty-gritty is that you should avoid building loadouts which exceed the "max alpha" number of any particular weapon (in this case, never mount more than 2 PPCs, just don't do it). Most ballistics are not on the system, which is why they can keep going and going (they also just deal very low heat in general). A common and effective way to exploit the system is to combine a pair of PPCs with various Autocannon calibers above the 2 rating (2 AC/5, 2 UAC/5, 1 AC/20, or maybe even 1 AC/10).

Also note that because of the reload rate they can trigger ghost heat if 3 are fired from 2 weapon groups at staggered times.
http://mwomercs.com/...an-explanation/
Didn't read all the replies but the last few say its still like that.

Edited by dario03, 29 January 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[Ryoken]

Black Arachne, on 29 January 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

I tried that in my testing as well - I can't even sustain using 2ER-PPC's. Which should be no problem for 20 DHS. I don't understand this ghost heat, you say it's designed to limit the amount of any single weapon you can fire at once but there are several mechs firing multiple ac's at the same time and none of them ever shutdown. And why must I downgrade the mech to make it viable, isn't that up to the game developer to fix whats wrong. I feel like I wasted three days of grinding for a broken mech.

At the current meta ER-PPCs are nearly unusable. If you want you can field 1 ER-PPC but even with 2 ER-PPCs you need something around 20DHS to be able to operate them.

I would advice you to put your Awesome back into the Hangar and get one of the current meta compatible builds, which are basically all Ballistic build mechs. So look for a mech you like that has at least 2 ballistic hardpoints with lots of slots available. Then put as much Autocannons in there as you like - all of them are pretty awesome at the moment - and just have fun blasting stuff away with pinpoint damage, great damage per second and such low heat penalty you can even field a PPC or some medium lasers for side dishes.

And yes it smells like bad smurf.

[Black Arachne]

This doesn't make sense - the weapons generate 2.5 times as much heat and only the engine heat sinks are double. That would explain why the heat system is not working, and weapon fire appears to be faster as well. So the devs didn't match cycle time on weapons with heat dissipation - and for some reason made DHS cool less. That would even make mech's in TT unsustainable, DHS are a must for energy weapons and ballistics ran fine with singles. Also what's a bad smurf, is that another thing like ghost heat?

Edited by Black Arachne, 29 January 2014 - 02:30 PM.

[Josef Nader]

Tabletop does not directly translate to a real-time first person shooter game. Things have to be changed. That was one of them. For the most part, it works pretty well, but ERPPCs are currently not all that usable right now.

[dario03]

Weapons firing faster is the main reason weapons make so much more heat than TT, well that and GH. ERPPC was 15 heat in TT it just didn't fire as fast.

[Mcgral18]

Josef Nader, on 29 January 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Tabletop does not directly translate to a real-time first person shooter game. Things have to be changed. That was one of them. For the most part, it works pretty well, but ERPPCs are currently not all that usable right now.

To be quite honest, it could have worked fine. PGI interpretation was making weapons fire 2.5+ times as fast, but keeping TT damage and heat. This is where most issues come from, along with doubled armor.

Our AC20 is actually an AC50 compared to TT, since it does 50 damage over 10 seconds. But that's close enough, compared to the AC2 which is nearly 20 times its TT damage and heat.

Edited by Mcgral18, 29 January 2014 - 02:55 PM.

[Black Arachne]

Mcgral18, on 29 January 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

To be quite honest, it could have worked fine. PGI interpretation was making weapons fire 2.5+ times as fast, but keeping TT damage and heat. This is where most issues come from, along with doubled armor.

Our AC20 is actually an AC50 compared to TT, since it does 50 damage over 10 seconds. But that's close enough, compared to the AC2 which is nearly 20 times its TT damage and heat.

See, that doesn't make sense. You can't make weapons fire faster and not speed up heat dissipation.

Also, if ERPPC's are nearly un-useable what are the devs plan on addressing these problems? I was planning buying the clan pack for the Warhawk but as it stands now that mech would just explode the moment it entered the game, and until I see something that makes sense there is no way in hell I'm forking over that kind of money,

Edited by Black Arachne, 29 January 2014 - 03:26 PM.