213 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

An interesting post.

Did you consider that a Drop would be set up like this once we factions
House Unit>Merc Unit>House PUG>Lone Wolf

Now PUG and Merc Unit could be reversed if the argument was sound enough. But it is a team oriented game, why would Solo players have precedence over teams?

On the Clan front lines, A match should have a Canon Kurita or Steiner-Davion Unit seeded first, then Hired merc(cannon fodder), Then Loyal PUGs (planetary militia, last line of defense) then Lone Wolves(No loyalty has its price).

[Noesis]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 February 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

An interesting post.

Now PUG and Merc Unit could be reversed if the argument was sound enough. But it is a team oriented game, why would Solo players have precedence over teams?

Thinking volume of players and where they are most represented. If more PUGs are in the same queue, then pre-mades will be the filler by virtue of maths.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 February 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

An interesting post.

Did you consider that a Drop would be set up like this once we factions
House Unit>Merc Unit>House PUG>Lone Wolf

Now PUG and Merc Unit could be reversed if the argument was sound enough. But it is a team oriented game, why would Solo players have precedence over teams?

On the Clan front lines, A match should have a Canon Kurita or Steiner-Davion Unit seeded first, then Hired merc(cannon fodder), Then Loyal PUGs (planetary militia, last line of defense) then Lone Wolves(No loyalty has its price).

Not a matter of solo players having precedence over teams but instead a calculated progression towards team play.. In fact it would be better for the teams to have a pug only area for the fact they can spot the talent in there and recruit. Bidding would ensue and a new form of competition to grab and hold onto the best players would ensue. A bigger base of pugs would make that happen. Were not talking about final gameplay but overall health of the game and the franchise. You don't see mercenaries or pro sports teams throwing new players into the mix at their level. they all have tiered systems to work the skill base upward. Its just common sense.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 10 February 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

Myself and many others think that is PGI's biggest mistake yet. Rather than an accepting and gradual climb into factions and groups they have made it a climb out of the slaughterhouse. They have lost and will continue to lose potential customers that way. I am all for the intent to make the game reflect the vision but in a practical sense how many not familiar with the franchise are going to stick with it long enough to even understand the basics.

The Noob/casual experience is nothing short of hostile here and on the field. I jumped in a few times this weekend and tracked my 18 matches. 12 were short. Never seen that in weekend play before. Out of the dozen I got to join none are left here. That's a very poor track record and is unsustainable.

I know your aching to get clans and all that is promised but in the Smart long view it would pay to delay that and make the game more welcoming to new players.

The fact that PGI is not doing anything of the sort leads me to my original conclusion many months ago. They are using this game as a platform to sell themselves into bigger and better things. We all will be left behind when that happens.

You are entitled to your opinion. I have esires to earn a place in the 10th Lyran Guards one I can earn the LPs. I am hoping that will be a pre made team much like the Law.

I think PGI is making a mistake by not creating a core of Canon units before the launch of the full game, If the game is primarily based on the clan invasion, and supposed to follow the Path with a new MW:O canon formed as we go, we should have Kuritans and FedCom units ready to launch as soon as we begin facing Clans. And from them A SLDF would be eventually recruited (LPs)

The Clans need to be formed and roughly organized before they are released against us.

As to those not familiar with the franchise... That will depend on the player. I am not one who prescribes to holding the of new players. I fell for the IP the instance I looked at the 3025TRO. I then learned the factions and became a Steiner. Had I thought the game sucked, I would never stayed past the 1st week, Maybe my lack of PvP prior gave me more resolve. But you'd think My ignorance of the PvP gameplay as well as my need to learn the mechanics of driving a mech again after 12 years would have caused me to throw up my hands and quit.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

RFMG567, on 07 February 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

If PGI hired you to be in charge of fixing gameplay balance, how would you fix it?

Mainly by implementing multi-shot AC's, a la MechWarrior 3, to help mitigate the pinpoint alpha thing.

Then I'd remove the soft cap from the heat system entirely (so each mech has a hard heat cap that once they reach, they shut down. More heat sinks merely mean faster dissipation), and have each mech have its own cap. So, an Awesome might have a cap that allows it to fire 3PPC's at once, a Stalker might have a slightly lower-than-average cap to represent its canonical heat problems, and so on.

Koniving's ideas about changing armour maxima among variants has me more interested the more I think about it. Rather than have max armour dictated by structure health, in turn dictated by chassis weight, as now, have it dictated by whatever the armour is for a particular variant, plus some arbitrary number. Say, 100, to use his example. Then, some of the 'worst' mechs in the game get a decent armour buff, and also make it easier to differentiate the different mechs. The Raven-3L, for example, is fast and sneaky, but in this system would have the worst armour value of the Raven chassis. The -4X, though, would be slower but much more heavily armoured. The Jaegermech would become a true glass cannon. The Thunderbolt (one of its variants. anyway), would end up with a max armour value equal to the stock of most Stalkers.

So, if I had to choose two that I really wanted, it would be the heat and armour tweaks here. Anything that actually makes the mechs feel like more than a different collection of hardpoints and cockpit panels.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 February 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

You are entitled to your opinion. I have esires to earn a place in the 10th Lyran Guards one I can earn the LPs. I am hoping that will be a pre made team much like the Law.

I think PGI is making a mistake by not creating a core of Canon units before the launch of the full game, If the game is primarily based on the clan invasion, and supposed to follow the Path with a new MW:O canon formed as we go, we should have Kuritans and FedCom units ready to launch as soon as we begin facing Clans. And from them A SLDF would be eventually recruited (LPs)

The Clans need to be formed and roughly organized before they are released against us.

As to those not familiar with the franchise... That will depend on the player. I am not one who prescribes to holding the of new players. I fell for the IP the instance I looked at the 3025TRO. I then learned the factions and became a Steiner. Had I thought the game sucked, I would never stayed past the 1st week, Maybe my lack of PvP prior gave me more resolve. But you'd think My ignorance of the PvP gameplay as well as my need to learn the mechanics of driving a mech again after 12 years would have caused me to throw up my hands and quit.

It makes many throw up their hands and quit. That's the problem. Also some men are smart enough to understand their limitations. Myself with my vision issues I will never make it into the big leauges and i know that. After 9k matches I am at .81.
You stay for the love of the game. In a tiered system I could be a contribute helping noobs get it together because of my experience even though I will never progress farther. Like the old farts on AAA teams moving kids to the big leagues. We can spot real talent and help them improve. Right now I have no way of doing that .I would Rather teach the young than be the fifth wheel on a mediocre team. Give us the tools to make that happen. It would not hurt only help with retention and retention is the key to this game growing.

[Noesis]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 February 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

I think PGI is making a mistake by not creating a core of Canon units before the launch of the full game, If the game is primarily based on the clan invasion, and supposed to follow the Path with a new MW:O canon formed as we go, we should have Kuritans and FedCom units ready to launch as soon as we begin facing Clans. And from them A SLDF would be eventually recruited (LPs)

The Clans need to be formed and roughly organized before they are released against us.

^This

Though hopefully this will become more of a focus to player issues in the first stage of CW with group organisation definitions. Ideally some more helpful understanding of incentives and benefits to being a part of groups also helpful to better have a more informed choice now prior to the advent of CW and it becoming a mass scramble of interests in a short time frame.

Please PGI/IGP, bring on the Decals and don't be afraid to enthuse and help players into the back story by being representated in the factions and more team orientated game play with an understanding of what these elements will help provide to players as a part of CW.

[Joseph Mallan]

Noesis, on 10 February 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

Thinking volume of players and where they are most represented. If more PUGs are in the same queue, then pre-mades will be the filler by virtue of maths.

Sorry I don't see it that way. Team game should cater to the teams not the individuals. In the Clan Invasion (which is what I am here to participate in) the Matchs should be House >Merc >PUG >Lone Wolf.

House Unit players have earned their placements with Loyalty points

Merc Units are paying in C-Bills and taking contracts

PUG players are (and this is my opinion) less invested in the game(unless they are waiting to fly Clan Colors). PUGs just want to drop and fight whomever. I want to see 12 Steiners on my team (including me) I want us on Coms together, cause that is how the game is supposed to be played. The Steiner's have their own TS3 so hey can an will get together an drop as a House. If the Law, wants to drop with Lyrans... we know their sever info and can join them. So if we have 7 Lyrans(actual Lyran's and Lawmen mixed) we drop and pick up 5 PUGs. IF we had In Game Comms that would change the need for a TS server, but I would much rather drop with 11 other players on comms with me than the way it is now.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 10 February 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

Not a matter of solo players having precedence over teams but instead a calculated progression towards team play.. In fact it would be better for the teams to have a pug only area for the fact they can spot the talent in there and recruit. Bidding would ensue and a new form of competition to grab and hold onto the best players would ensue. A bigger base of pugs would make that happen. Were not talking about final gameplay but overall health of the game and the franchise. You don't see mercenaries or pro sports teams throwing new players into the mix at their level. they all have tiered systems to work the skill base upward. Its just common sense.

I saw the 2nd Bat 5th Marines take a raw recruit and 5 days after getting a bunk was tested for combat readiness and shipped to Oki 3 weeks late.

Rookies are always being teamed with vets, so I don't have a problem.

25 matches as a training program after a few lessons of how to know which way your feet are pointing is fine.

[Noesis]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 February 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

Sorry I don't see it that way. Team game should cater to the teams not the individuals. In the Clan Invasion (which is what I am here to participate in) the Matchs should be House >Merc >PUG >Lone Wolf.

House Unit players have earned their placements with Loyalty points

Merc Units are paying in C-Bills and taking contracts

PUG players are (and this is my opinion) less invested in the game(unless they are waiting to fly Clan Colors). PUGs just want to drop and fight whomever. I want to see 12 Steiners on my team (including me) I want us on Coms together, cause that is how the game is supposed to be played. The Steiner's have their own TS3 so hey can an will get together an drop as a House. If the Law, wants to drop with Lyrans... we know their sever info and can join them. So if we have 7 Lyrans(actual Lyran's and Lawmen mixed) we drop and pick up 5 PUGs. IF we had In Game Comms that would change the need for a TS server, but I would much rather drop with 11 other players on comms with me than the way it is now.

Which could happen if they wish to give priority status to organisations over PUGs.

Interestingly it does make sense to have a kind of internal distinction in separating out pre-mades and trying to marry them up where possible.

But still having more PUGs in the queue for CW will still mean that the majority of matches will have PUGs represented more and still having an influence over some of the CW outcomes, like the battle lines. This since I doubt PGI will make PUG players wait for a pre-made contingent to be available for them to drop if they form a larger majority of interest in the queue.

[Craig Steele]

Noesis, on 10 February 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

Which could happen if they wish to give priority status to organisations over PUGs.

Interestingly it does make sense to have a kind of internal distinction in separating out pre-mades and trying to marry them up where possible.

But still having more PUGs in the queue for CW will still mean that the majority of matches will have PUGs represented more and still having an influence over some of the CW outcomes, like the battle lines. This since I doubt PGI will make PUG players wait for a pre-made contingent to be available for them to drop if they form a larger majority of interest in the queue.

Haven't they already said that when CW is here the plan is for factions to determine teams, with filling by LNW. Any LNW's part of a merc group will fight under their merc contract, not 'in the line' so to speak.

So if you're 3 man or solo, if its a Davion team your team will be Davion's + LNW (unless a premade has a ringer maybe?).

So to use your flowchart

Faction (team or solo) > LNW (team or solo)

That match will then slot into one of Davion's active fronts, random planet, then the battle gets determined and the outcome shapes the planets "control" by 1% which ever way.

Has that changed?

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 February 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

I saw the 2nd Bat 5th Marines take a raw recruit and 5 days after getting a bunk was tested for combat readiness and shipped to Oki 3 weeks late.

Rookies are always being teamed with vets, so I don't have a problem.

25 matches as a training program after a few lessons of how to know which way your feet are pointing is fine.

Cant tell me about that. I was in the first wave of fleet sailors to be rapidly trained to work with marines on the ground. Anyone with a background in munitions quickly became EOD in the field. From servicing missiles that could shoot down satellites to digging in the dirt in the span of three months. I know all about being tossed in with the wolves. Might be the main reason I am so against the current system knowing the end result.

[Roadbeer]

Craig Steele, on 10 February 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Haven't they already said that when CW is here the plan is for factions to determine teams, with filling by LNW. Any LNW's part of a merc group will fight under their merc contract, not 'in the line' so to speak.

So if you're 3 man or solo, if its a Davion team your team will be Davion's + LNW (unless a premade has a ringer maybe?).

So to use your flowchart

Faction (team or solo) > LNW (team or solo)

That match will then slot into one of Davion's active fronts, random planet, then the battle gets determined and the outcome shapes the planets "control" by 1% which ever way.

Has that changed?

Nope, I just assumed that this was an axiom, but apparently not.

[Noesis]

Craig Steele, on 10 February 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Haven't they already said that when CW is here the plan is for factions to determine teams, with filling by LNW. Any LNW's part of a merc group will fight under their merc contract, not 'in the line' so to speak.

So if you're 3 man or solo, if its a Davion team your team will be Davion's + LNW (unless a premade has a ringer maybe?).

So to use your flowchart

Faction (team or solo) > LNW (team or solo)

That match will then slot into one of Davion's active fronts, random planet, then the battle gets determined and the outcome shapes the planets "control" by 1% which ever way.

Has that changed?

Nope it hasn't changed from my understanding.

But the distinction is between pugs and pre-mades. You can still be affiliated with one of the houses and still PUG.

[wanderer]

Quote

A spider with Machine guns should never be able to take out an assault.

My first -tabletop- assault kill was on a Battlemaster. With a Locust. Few passes around it's backside with a medium laser and the MG's and boom, ammo hit, dead assault.

Given high movement modifiers and initiative wins in TT, a mobile light solo can and will disembowel an assault, simply by repeatedly moving out of it's field of fire. If it's dumb enough to allow the assault a good shot? Boom. Which is what happens to them in MWO when they derp and shutdown trying to kill something. Boom goes the leg, then boom goes the now crippled 'Mech.

Mobility counters firepower that can't be brought to bear on it.

[Mercules]

Gut, on 07 February 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

It's easier to physically do, (kind of. The only skilled weapon in the game that takes the same or more skill is the SRMs. Lasers you just hold over a target. Not hard. Streaks/LRMS, you just hold over a box, not hard. With these min-max builds, you have to be faster than the enemy to use them effectively) However, it's not easier to do against an evenly matched team doing the same thing. Also, don't undermine the skill it DOES take. See above.

So... if the enemy brings the exact same mech(AKA Evenly matached team doing the same) and jump snipes then suddenly it's not easier to beat them. Um.... DUH! Yeah if we all use the meta tactics that seems easier than any other tactic out there then suddenly we are on the same footing... Brilliant. Apparently that means there is nothing wrong with one type of build and strategy dominating the field.

Gut, on 07 February 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

Great pilots are patient enough to get around even the HGN. Not that it doesn't need a nerf, just not to the extent that most people want. (this is one of those statements that I hope people read the entire reply for =P

I think what you are trying to say here, and completely missing my point, is that you can flank them if patient. However, what I was talking about was that in a fast light I can be a 1 on 1 threat to an Atlas or Stalker because I can simply use a bit of terrain and my superior maneuverability to avoid most of their shots and for the most part steer clear of the line of fire. JJ assualts, however, simple tap their jets and spin and can very quickly bring any mech on their back into their main line of fire. So what has been the bane of assault mechs caught out alone in the past is no threat to HGNs. So they have all the strengths of the other assaults and none of the weaknesses.

I'm not saying it is an issue with the HGN but it is instead and issue of JJs and pinpoint alphas due to convergence and these issues combine in the HGN which can have both and then tack on the armor of an assault.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 10 February 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

Cant tell me about that. I was in the first wave of fleet sailors to be rapidly trained to work with marines on the ground. Anyone with a background in munitions quickly became EOD in the field. From servicing missiles that could shoot down satellites to digging in the dirt in the span of three months. I know all about being tossed in with the wolves. Might be the main reason I am so against the current system knowing the end result.

It has been my prefered training method since I was in Jr High!

[Joseph Mallan]

Noesis, on 10 February 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

Which could happen if they wish to give priority status to organisations over PUGs.

Interestingly it does make sense to have a kind of internal distinction in separating out pre-mades and trying to marry them up where possible.

But still having more PUGs in the queue for CW will still mean that the majority of matches will have PUGs represented more and still having an influence over some of the CW outcomes, like the battle lines. This since I doubt PGI will make PUG players wait for a pre-made contingent to be available for them to drop if they form a larger majority of interest in the queue.

I see where you are going I think. You gotta understand, I do agree, if there isn't a 2-11 man Lyran force, tha matchmaker should populate the match with as many PUGs as it has.

My position is this is a team game first. So those who want to be Individual players on a team full of randoms should not get priority. I joined Murphys cause they are a great bunch of guys, I intend on becoming a 10th Lyran Guard, That means I will have to gain enough Loyalty points to get into a Premire Unit. Should that dedication be trumped buy some guy who by definition is playing the gamre casually?

Loyalty for loyalty in my neigborhood and household.

[Xyroc]

Paul Inouye, on 06 February 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

the jump jet effects on turning and lift also compound the issue with these two 'Mechs specifically. We will be addressing both issues at the same time.

Thank you Paul for putting my worried Jenner pilot mind at ease!

[Noesis]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 February 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

I see where you are going I think. You gotta understand, I do agree, if there isn't a 2-11 man Lyran force, tha matchmaker should populate the match with as many PUGs as it has.

My position is this is a team game first. So those who want to be Individual players on a team full of randoms should not get priority. I joined Murphys cause they are a great bunch of guys, I intend on becoming a 10th Lyran Guard, That means I will have to gain enough Loyalty points to get into a Premire Unit. Should that dedication be trumped buy some guy who by definition is playing the gamre casually?

Loyalty for loyalty in my neigborhood and household.

Yes in principal I would like to promote the idea of people joining a team framework.

However if it is the case that the battles lines are then more resolved by the interaction with PUG elements as opposed to player groups or pre-mades due to their presence in the Queue being more numerous this then means that the outcome of CW will be more resolved by PUG interactions than organised teams.

So even if priority pre-mades are put into matches with other pre-mades or considered with any priority it then means even with any extra filling if overall the PUGs are predominant in numbers, in theory more matches will be played with more of a PUG predominance in their numbers including entire matches made up only from PUGs in order to avoid anyone from being delayed to play by being in the queue.

If these PUGs are also a member of the houses and therefore their loyalty bonuses are equally as valid as player organisations affiliated with the houses since their contributions to the war per game will be considered the same based on results.

With the like by like nature of these things, if more pre-mades (with drop priority concerns) drop more regular with each other as per the ideal match up for them and then PUGs getting their games all things being equal in terms of pre-made and pugging will mean that you will potentially have an equivalent challenge and therefore the potential to succeed and earn loyalty.

E.g.

12 man pre-made vs 12 man pre-made is the same as 12 man pug vs 12 man pug for likelihood to succeed. And all variable in between potential matched off over average based on populations due to how priorities feed people into queues. So all the pre-mades will fill up the first bus loads of matches, then we will have a small amount of mixed with fillers, followed by PUG groups. All happy that overall they are getting a balanced and useful match up in theory. But if the majority of these matches are still PUG elements then they will have more determination of battle lines based on their outcome.

At least having people associated with the organisations and therefore having loyalty to an organisation will be beneficial as they will have a personal incentive to do well. But then surely it is then a question as to which house organises its players into the most number of pre-mades for a battle line that will then make most effective use of their numbers. So there is in theory a very real incentive to promote the idea of using pre-mades in a House/Clan to garner the best and most effective arrangements and reduce the contingent number of PUGs representing them.

Though from a strategical point of view maybe this should be left to an element of leadership and recruitment to try and promote these things as opposed to PGI/IGP.

Which ultimatley raises another question about battle lines themselves and representative queue populations. Since if more population or interest is represented to Steiner then in theory they will be able to field more pre-made and PUG regulars who are at least affiliated to that house before adding in LNW extras than other groups they are opposing. Though this also depends on the number of battle lines also and opponents etc.

The priority does make sense, but places an need on the players to get organised and recruit. And to some extent maintain numbers so as to have more passion and invested interests in certain houses over others to avoid being populated with "extras".

Mercs I will consider as neutral to these interests and largely equally utilised for specific objectives. And dependant on how they ultimately are then included to the battle line to support house interests (planetary conquest aside) will help in skewing interests in specific places to advantage. Which also makes sense based on their use and intent from canon.