67 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

Robertak, on 18 February 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

haha, guys.. if this was only problem of MWO, there couldn't be happier person then me.. imho this is not a bug nor a problem.. just mount c.a.s.e. and you'll be fine.. ;-)

Would that CASE actually had any function with an XL engine, that would be a great suggestion.

As it is, CASE does nothing when running an XL engine.

[MavRCK]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 12:44 AM, said:

You haven't fixed this bug.

It is a bug.

Please make sure and fix this overly borked weapon.

If the weapon is actually CHARGED, ok, it should explode.

If the weapon IS NOT charged, because there's no ammo to initiate the charging sequence, IT SHOULD NOT BLOW UP.

I agree with this logic...

If there's no energy in the capacitors - no explosion.

It would let me run gauss in my torsos without fear of killing my XL engines.

It's a good game mechanic.

Edited by MavRCK, 18 February 2014 - 12:55 PM.

[Stimraug]

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Don't bet on it. Unless you're a PGI employee, your word is not "the last" on this matter...

Instead of waiting for a PGI employee to answer this rather unnecessary thread you should turn to logic and reason as your main authority. Said logic and reason I'm now going to attempt to convey for you.

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

If you consider a 40kph 'mech as "very viable" well, I'll just say our opinions vary.

Let me straighten your understanding of viable std builds a bit (speed w/o tweak / speed with speed tweak):

Highlander utilizing Gauss with STD (58.5 kph / 64.3 kph)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cf55144a17664fa

Victor utilizing Gauss with STD (60.7 kph / 66.8 kph):
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0b17788a3923651

CTF-3D utilizing Gauss with STD (60.7 kph / 66.8 kph):
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d90cc6565a74aa6

K2 utilizing Gauss with STD (56.1 kph / 61.7 kph):
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e2ce9004371cd72

SHD-2D2 utilizing Gauss with STD (66.3 kph / 72.9 kph:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...27d60ae5cc023b3

The highlander, 2D2, Victor and 3D builds are all used in some units on the level of competitive play, and can also be seen used in pugs. The catapult is an older build, but still sees use in some units / some levels of pug play. They're all viable, and some of the builds would only get worse with the addition of an XL engine. PM me if you'd like me to explain why, I'll gladly advise.

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Please explain to me how a weapon with ZERO ammo is 'active'...

I'm not sure if you'd like me to base my explanation on previous BT lore or base it on something that could be a possible case in "real life". As the developers have not outlined the operation of MWO's gauss rifle in detail (AFAIK), I'll take the freedom to conjure up an explanation. Simply put, the weapon system is be turned on, i.e on standby mode, i.e active between shots. Neither previous BT lore or real-life applications have any authority on this, as PGI can do whatever they want in their game. Thus it would be just as sensible to ask you: Why do you think a Gauss Rifle isn't active and powered-up even if there is currently no ammo loaded?

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

That's idiotic, and if you're reasoning is carried through then all PPC's and laser weapons should explode due to how they operate as well. PPC's are unique requiring a significant charge, arguably MORE SO than gauss, as you are creating an energy packet sufficient to cause significant damage at range, where as with gauss the energy being utilized only needs to be enough to push a packet of mass. Given that we're arguing the application of 'real physics' to a video game so we might as well be arguing what flavor the moon would be if it were actually made of cheese, the energy requirements of PPC's should be over and again as much as required for gauss.

Your impolite arguments might carry more weight if you took the time to actually tell why what I said was idiotic. No, my reasoning would not carry through to PPCs and laser weapons, as PPCs and laser weapons aren't weapons that fire slugs using magnetic coils. This should be simple to understand. And this argument is only based on logic / rl. Of course the real explanation is that PGI has made PPCs and laser weps to be of the non-explosive kind, and that is enough. You cannot use logic to argue that, as PGI decides how it is, not you. And thus, no, we're not arguing real physics stuff. We're only arguing about whether the aforementioned property of the GR is a bug (not intended by devs) or a feature (intended by the devs).

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

We only maintain the explosion capability for gauss due to the history of the TT rules.

No, it is maintained cos PGI wanted to.

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Granted, but since the implementation of the charge mechanic, something that in no way shape or form ever existed in any TT rule set or game lore, continuing to try and argue based on that is rather silly.

You're first arguing with *the help of* and then *against* the use of TT rules. Please decide whether you want to play by TT stuff, or not.

Dimento Graven, on 18 February 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

You lack the authority to even express that opinion, but good for you.

I'm going to give you the nice version of a reply to this: whether I lack or do not lack the authority is a wholly different argument. If you want to have it, please PM me. Secondly, you do not have the authority to deem those of others', so this whole rather dull sentence of yours was totally unnecessary.
I think we can both agree that it is not a bug, but a feature. Good day.

Edited by Stimraug, 18 February 2014 - 01:39 PM.

[Flying Blind]

This whole issue could be fixed by changing the text for cause of death to "Gauss rifle explosion"

[Robertak]

CASE will prevent your gauss of exploding.. getting hit directly into XL shall kill you everytime, even you havent mounted gauss as well.. that's why XL sucks.. it is suitable for some kind of light mechs, but for heavies or assaults it is simple bad kind of engine..

Edited by Robertak, 18 February 2014 - 01:58 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Stimraug, on 18 February 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

[skipping opinion based portion of this]
...
I'm not sure if you'd like me to base my explanation on previous BT lore or base it on something that could be a possible case in "real life". As the developers have not outlined the operation of MWO's gauss rifle in detail (AFAIK), I'll take the freedom to conjure up an explanation. Simply put, the weapon system is be turned on, i.e on standby mode, i.e active between shots. Neither previous BT lore or real-life applications have any authority on this, as PGI can do whatever they want in their game. Thus it would be just as sensible to ask you: Why do you think a Gauss Rifle isn't active and powered-up even if there is currently no ammo loaded?

Well, how about a perfect reasonable in game observation.

When you're out of ammo, the gauss turns off/goes dark in the weapon list.

Also, and even more importantly, you can't even initiate the charge cycle. It's not like you can sit there, with it out of ammo, and have it charge, and discharge after .25 seconds over and over again.
Ergo, it must be OFF.

Quote

Your impolite arguments might carry more weight if you took the time to actually tell why what I said was idiotic. No, my reasoning would not carry through to PPCs and laser weapons, as PPCs and laser weapons aren't weapons that fire slugs using magnetic coils. This should be simple to understand. And this argument is only based on logic / rl. Of course the real explanation is that PGI has made PPCs and laser weps to be of the non-explosive kind, and that is enough. You cannot use logic to argue that, as PGI decides how it is, not you. And thus, no, we're not arguing real physics stuff. We're only arguing about whether the aforementioned property of the GR is a bug (not intended by devs) or a feature (intended by the devs).

You need to re-read what I said, I explained why, but I'll go into a little bit more detail:

A. It requires for more energy to deliver a mass of charged particles across a given distance and still have enough energy to do actual damage. Given knowledge of the inverse square law where the intensity is inversely proportional to the distance from the source, it takes a SIGNIFICANT amount of energy generated from the source to do any damage at say, 1000 meters. MUCH MORE than it requires to accelerate solid mass that same distance, even a 200lb water melon, which the gauss has been described as.
B. PPC stands for Particle Projection Cannon. These actually exist, in much smaller weaker form now, I'm sure you've heard of a Linear Particle Accelerator. Guess how those work? Lots and lots of energy.

Quote

No, it is maintained cos PGI wanted to.

Granted both are probably right at some level.

Quote

You're first arguing with *the help of* and then *against* the use of TT rules. Please decide whether you want to play by TT stuff, or not.

No, my point was that arguing that the gauss rifle should blow up, no matter what, can no longer be based on what lore or the TT rule set was as they've added a completely non-lore/canon charge mechanic. Saying that it HAS to ALWAYS blow up because the TT rule set says is silly, when there's no such rule set for a charge mechanic.

Quote

I'm going to give you the nice version of a reply to this: whether I lack or do not lack the authority is a wholly different argument. If you want to have it, please PM me. Secondly, you do not have the authority to deem those of others', so this whole rather dull sentence of yours was totally unnecessary.
I think we can both agree that it is not a bug, but a feature. Good day.

No, we can't agree to that, because you're wrong.

[Dimento Graven]

Robertak, on 18 February 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

CASE will prevent your gauss of exploding.. getting hit directly into XL shall kill you everytime, even you havent mounted gauss as well..

Actually, no. You can't load CASE into arms, and even if you load CASE into a side torso, and your gauss rifle is in the side torso, as long as you have XL engine, you lose that side torso, and die.

Flying Blind, on 18 February 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

This whole issue could be fixed by changing the text for cause of death to "Gauss rifle explosion"

AND, not blowing up when the weapon has no ammo to even load, to initiate a charge...

[senaiboy]

This thread was, is, and will go nowhere.

A bug is an error, flaw, fault or failure in a system. This is not a "bug" because it is programmed this way by the Developers. It will not be "fixed" because this is EXACTLY how the Developers want it to behave. It does not matter whether it's logical, what TT says, how it should behave in real-life, etc. It is doing what it is programmed to do - thus it is not a bug.

Now, your opinion is very rational and I understand where you are coming from. As others have already pointed out you may suggest the game mechanics be changed, but going on insisting it is a bug when it isn't (as above) and refusing to listen is not conducive to discussions.

Hence let's stop here.

Edited by senaiboy, 18 February 2014 - 02:37 PM.

[Grendel408]

Okay... if a weapon doesn't have ammo it shouldn't explode right? Wrong... Gauss ammo is a solid nickel-ferrous round fired at hyper-velocity speeds and makes for one hell of an impact on one's life LOL! "But... if the ammo doesn't explode then the weapon shouldn't either!" Too bad... would you rather non-explosive ammo be allowed to "explode" like other autocannons, or the weapon itself to explode versus the ammo? Think about it... either way, it's generally bad for one or the other to cook off. This is a weapons/game balance factor the Devs have decided... and I personally like it. Before you add on about the charging mechanic... keep in mind that yes it's not present in lore/canon or the TT game... anyone remember in MechAssault that PPCs needed to be charged before firing? It's a game mechanic set in place for a specific type of weapon really meant for long-range usage. If you can use it effectively in close-quarters, then more power to you... otherwise, it's "working as intended"

[PhoenixFire55]

Deathlike, on 18 February 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

I don't care anymore. In the world of PPCs, Gauss is still being used on better jump sniping players.

It is not. 2AC5s (even more so 2UAC5s) are 2-3 times more DPS with pretty much same tonnage, same range and with the ability to dish damage when button is pressed. Why do you think its LORD 733C ggclose instead of LORD 732 ggclose now? ... Two ballistic hardpoints.

[ImperialKnight]

TL:DR. troll post is troll.

Gauss working as intended. Move along.

[gump60]

Let me try and summarize why this should be considered a bug:

PGI has instituted a deviation from lore where there is a capacitor charge time before you can fire the GR.

Lore has it that GR's explode, not the GR ammo. Why? because the *charged* capacitors blow and release their energy.

Now, these two separate things make perfect sense on their own. Combine the two and its a bug. Lore GR's are in a constant state of a) maintaining charge B) charging.
PGI GR's have 3 states: a) discharged B) charging c) maintaining charge (for a very small point of time)


Ammo here is completely irrelevant. PGI says GR's blow because the capacitors are destroyed and release energy, PGI says capacitors have to be charged for .75 sec before firing. If the capacitors aren't either in a state of charging or maintaining charge then.....WHAT ENERGY IS BEING RELEASED???!!!

based upon the deviation from Lore/TT that PGI instituted, they either need to stop half-assing it and come up with some other background for their GR nerf or only blow the GR's when they are green (charged / maintaining charged capacitors), or change the reason for WHY the GR's blow (short circuit or something....).

Really, maintaining that capacitors that have to be manually charged before firing, blow up when they haven't been charged because they are releasing all the energy in their uncharged capacitors makes them look extremely lazy or completely incapable of processing logic (bad thing for anybody involved in computer/software industry). Either fix it so they only blow when charged/charging, or come up better BS so its not a "logic" bug.

Edited by gump60, 19 February 2014 - 07:49 AM.

[Grendel408]

So... what if the Gauss rifle holds a strong residual charge (80% or so) to keep the weapon operational, but requires the charging sequence to bring the capacitors to a full 100% charge before firing? Why is this being debated so much? Do the Devs really need to explain the complete mechanics of why a weapon does what it does? Do they really know the finer points of why the lasers are colored the way they are... or why I can't fire a machine gun more than 200 meters in-game, but in reality I can fire a machine gun much further? You're all arguing (some call it debating) about logic crossed between: reality, BattleTech, and this game... just stop and play the game and enjoy it

[xXBagheeraXx]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 February 2014 - 01:49 AM, said:

Hilarious.
MM is Working as Intended^TM
UI 2.0 is Working as Intended^TM
HSR is Working as Intended^TM

Let me translate from PGI-ish to english ... Working as Intended^TM= BROKEN.

Starting to sound like World of Tanks...

OH DEAR GOD NO........

Grendel408, on 19 February 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

So... what if the Gauss rifle holds a strong residual charge (80% or so) to keep the weapon operational, but requires the charging sequence to bring the capacitors to a full 100% charge before firing? Why is this being debated so much? Do the Devs really need to explain the complete mechanics of why a weapon does what it does? Do they really know the finer points of why the lasers are colored the way they are... or why I can't fire a machine gun more than 200 meters in-game, but in reality I can fire a machine gun much further? You're all arguing (some call it debating) about logic crossed between: reality, BattleTech, and this game... just stop and play the game and enjoy it

The TL;DR version of this thread is the Gauss rifle was over-nerfed and needs to be reworked, and I agree with them...ive only started using this weapon again on Heavies with arm mounts, since i found out it charges perfectly with medium lasers....ive been tossing up 600+ damage games in a gauss muromets because i can finally sync the gauss with other weapons again. Shouldnt have to take brain surgery to fire the dammed thing, and it shouldnt explode just by BREATHING on it hard...

[Ximius]

To be honest, I do have to agree that the exploding, out of ammo, gauss seems a bit weird. But then again we're also supposed to believe that giant walking robots are the most efficient form of vehicle for warfare in the 31st century or whatever... /shrug

I do think that it would be helpful to the game if they did provide a little bit more grounding in what is plausible and not, but it is fiction in reality. The reality is that I am guessing given the huge list of other bugs/issues that the devs need to tackle currently, this would fall pretty far down on the list. Nonetheless I would fully support it getting a little attention at some point down the road.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Ximius, on 19 February 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

To be honest, I do have to agree that the exploding, out of ammo, gauss seems a bit weird. But then again we're also supposed to believe that giant walking robots are the most efficient form of vehicle for warfare in the 31st century or whatever... /shrug

I do think that it would be helpful to the game if they did provide a little bit more grounding in what is plausible and not, but it is fiction in reality. The reality is that I am guessing given the huge list of other bugs/issues that the devs need to tackle currently, this would fall pretty far down on the list. Nonetheless I would fully support it getting a little attention at some point down the road.

My main concern are mechs down the line like the Fafnir with dual HEAVY gauss rifles mounted in torso sections...if the gauss is still behaving like it is now, NOBODY and i mean NO FREAKING BODY is going to EVER use that weapon. at least not in any mech that cant mount it in an arm location or with a standard engine build.

[Dyvim Slorm]

If the gauss is out of ammo or not charged it is off and has no power going to it.

Really?

If you want to throw real world electrical engineering into things go ahead.

If your TV, Computer, DVD player, any electronic device is turned "off" yet is still plugged in, is the system charged?

The answer is..... YES.

Just because something is off does not mean that it has no charge in it. If you believe that I dare you to open up your computer and start pulling boards without unplugging it.

If you want a sci-fi BS explanation of the Gauss.... just because the firing capacitor is not charged does not mean the weapon itself has no potential energy in it. It could easily have a series of capacitors carrying a charge just to activate the main system when called upon. Similar to a starter cap in a flourescent light.

The gauss self destructing is not a bug. If you don't like it, don't use it.

[Ximius]

xXBagheeraXx, on 19 February 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

My main concern are mechs down the line like the Fafnir with dual HEAVY gauss rifles mounted in torso sections...if the gauss is still behaving like it is now, NOBODY and i mean NO FREAKING BODY is going to EVER use that weapon. at least not in any mech that cant mount it in an arm location or with a standard engine build.

I understand. I agree that it seriously makes the weapon marginal at best in a lot of situations. But I'm just trying to be pragmatic with respect to the litany of other issues you see posted here day in, day out. Even after a fresh hotfix they still seem to have broken other or not fixed existing stuff.

Lets be honest, after something like 2 years they're still in the "balancing" phase and dicking around with pulse laser ranges. That's pretty core balancing that should have been well over with by this point according to any sane timeline. And yet here we are....

[Dimento Graven]

knightsljx, on 19 February 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

TL:DR. troll post is troll.

Gauss working as intended. Move along.

So speaketh a hater of the gauss...

[Dimento Graven]

Dyvim Slorm, on 19 February 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

If the gauss is out of ammo or not charged it is off and has no power going to it.

Really?

If you want to throw real world electrical engineering into things go ahead.

If your TV, Computer, DVD player, any electronic device is turned "off" yet is still plugged in, is the system charged?

The answer is..... YES.

Just because something is off does not mean that it has no charge in it.

The amount charge in a modern device's "off" state is significantly different than the charge state while running, by an order of at least 10 times (go look up Energy Star requirements if you're confused), this is why when you turn your modern TV on, it STILL requires a few seconds before you get your screen to display. All the various driving capacitors need to charge from a near zero state.

Pretty much when a capacitor discharges there's extremely little energy left, granted some, but certainly no where near enough to be an issue with unexpected discharges.

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If you believe that I dare you to open up your computer and start pulling boards without unplugging it.

This made me laugh, a lot. The extreme ignorance of it is simultaneously humorous, but also appalling.

Unless something has changed significantly, and recently, all A+ Certified personnel working inside a computer are directed to KEEP THE MACHINE PLUGGED IN while working on it.

Why? Static discharge. While your system is plugged in you have access to your building's ground, and it gives any potential residual static charge on your body a place to go.

Quote

If you want a sci-fi BS explanation of the Gauss.... just because the firing capacitor is not charged does not mean the weapon itself has no potential energy in it. It could easily have a series of capacitors carrying a charge just to activate the main system when called upon. Similar to a starter cap in a flourescent light.

The gauss self destructing is not a bug. If you don't like it, don't use it.

Given your ignorance form the statement before this one, and your apparent hate of gauss, I'm not even going to bother discussing this silly point.