214 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Slashmckill, on 21 February 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

A +2 to hit is kinda hard to translate in a game where all your lasers hit 90% of the time regardless of mech speed, range and pilot skill. (It did equate to more damage though) It only did a little extra dmg compared to the normal large laser, but it hit more frequently and therefore did more dmg on average than a large laser. Increasing the damage another point or two could help emphisize that +2 modifier better. (Pulses need more reward for all of their restrictions)

Yes, it is. THe hit probabilities in the TT were probably a lot lower. At max range with a usual weapon it's quite difficult to hit for the average IS pilot.
That also points out to me that you simply cannot translate any kind of hit bonus from the TT to something that would make it easier to hit in MW:O. Our hit probabilities overall are probably much better to begin with, so the benefit gained by making it a bit easier to hit with a mouse are a lot less. Basically, if you can bring a weapon from 80 % hit probability to 90 %, that's not really a big deal, but if you can bring it from 25 % to 50 %, it is. The latter means doubling the damage output, the former is just an increase by about 12 %. Not neglible, but not worth the same as 100 % extra damage. And so if you want to translate the LPL to a game with mouse aiming and convergence, you can fiddle as much as you want with the beam duration, it might very well never be worth it if you just stick to that, you need to find some other benefit. Less heat output could be such a thing, more damage could be such a thing, faster cycle rate (but beware, that also raises the heat and requires you to torso twist less because you need to shoot the laser, both are negatives, and you might need a lot of a boost to compensate that.)

Quote

An interesting idea to say the least, though heat is still gonna be a problem and since it fires faster it might be even worse than what we have now. (heat-wise)

( I mean you know the devs, heat is a constant reminder that we cannot have nice things, because if we have heat efficent mechs the dreaded, "4 second jenners", will destroy us all according to them.)

Just to be precise: The imaginary construct was a 3 second Jenner. A 4 second Jenner might at least be consistent with actual weapon cycle rates for most weapons that could bring the necessary firepower, even if it would be a completely unfeasible build with no armor or engines. It's still one of the most ridonkolus weapon balance statements made from PGI. Was it Garth that said that?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 22 February 2014 - 11:59 AM.

[Slashmckill]

MustrumRidcully, on 22 February 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Just to be precise: The imaginary construct was a 3 second Jenner. A 4 second Jenner might at least be consistent with actual weapon cycle rates for most weapons that could bring the necessary firepower, even if it would be a completely unfeasible build with no armor or engines. It's still one of the most ridonkolus weapon balance statements made from PGI. Was it Garth that said that?

Sorry yeah you are right it's the "3 second jenner" i guess i tried so hard to wrap their lies around reality my brain just kinda changed it into something slightly believable. (but like you said it would still be impossible to even drive)

It was either Garth or Paul that said it, i can't remember if it was a thread about double heatsinks or one of the random progress updates that had it in it.

Edit: Still couldn't find it but here is this instead, it's still really funny to read.

Q: Can we please at least try DHS at 2.0? It doesn't seem like much of a boost to lights who usually benefit mostly from the engine heat sinks, but heavies and assaults that use big energy weapons need the boost. [Wolfways]
A: No. Prior to releasing the Dual Heatsink upgrade the forums were abuzz with whether or not they would be mandatory on all Mechs. With the numbers we've chosen, they aren't, so I'd say we answered those questions well. [Garth]

Oh the lies, how they tickle me so.

Edited by Slashmckill, 22 February 2014 - 12:36 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

At least they didn't buff the Machine Gun DPS, or we'd all be dying to those 6 MG Spiders now.

[Osric Lancaster]

MustrumRidcully, on 22 February 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

That also points out to me that you simply cannot translate any kind of hit bonus from the TT to something that would make it easier to hit in MW:O. Our hit probabilities overall are probably much better to begin with, so the benefit gained by making it a bit easier to hit with a mouse are a lot less.

Yep. You could give them faster convergence if convergence ever becomes a thing, but overall a damage increase is a reasonable approach.

Slashmckill, on 22 February 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Q: Can we please at least try DHS at 2.0? It doesn't seem like much of a boost to lights who usually benefit mostly from the engine heat sinks, but heavies and assaults that use big energy weapons need the boost. [Wolfways]
A: No. Prior to releasing the Dual Heatsink upgrade the forums were abuzz with whether or not they would be mandatory on all Mechs. With the numbers we've chosen, they aren't, so I'd say we answered those questions well. [Garth]

You know, when 1.4 heat sinks came out I assumed they started at 1.4 so they raise it to 1.6 in a month so it could be 'accepted as a reasonable compromise'. As it stands it doesn't even matter because the problem is with how they implemented the heat system. The dissipation rate of s.h.s. is so bad they let you do little more than walk on some maps, yet you can still fire two PPCs at once and then spend the next three minutes cooling off. It's hilarious.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 22 February 2014 - 05:59 PM.

[LaserAngel]

After some experience with the Firestarter on the giving and receiving end, I think that Small Lasers don't need a whopping 120 meter range but something that would be safer for everyone would be 100 meters

[Bront]

I'm loving the LPL buff. Haven't tried MPLs since then, but the extra range equates into extra damage much of the time on them, so it likely helps. Is it enough? maybe, the heat change helped the LPL quite a bit as well.

LaserAngel, on 23 February 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

After some experience with the Firestarter on the giving and receiving end, I think that Small Lasers don't need a whopping 120 meter range but something that would be safer for everyone would be 100 meters

I think a 120 range on SLs, and 100 on SPLs I think would be a good buff

[LaserAngel]

Bront, on 23 February 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

I'm loving the LPL buff. Haven't tried MPLs since then, but the extra range equates into extra damage much of the time on them, so it likely helps. Is it enough? maybe, the heat change helped the LPL quite a bit as well.
I think a 120 range on SLs, and 100 on SPLs I think would be a good buff

Yeah I'd be for a drop in heat on the Medium Pulse Laser. 120/100 for the Small Laser and Small Pulse Laser respectively is something I was entertaining too.

[Bront]

LaserAngel, on 23 February 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Yeah I'd be for a drop in heat on the Medium Pulse Laser. 120/100 for the Small Laser and Small Pulse Laser respectively is something I was entertaining too.

LaserAngel, on 23 February 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Yeah I'd be for a drop in heat on the Medium Pulse Laser. 120/100 for the Small Laser and Small Pulse Laser respectively is something I was entertaining too.

Even something as simple as setting the heat for the Pulse lasers equal to that of the regular lasers. They become more efficient energy weapons at the cost of tonnage.

[Deathlike]

Bront, on 25 February 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

Even something as simple as setting the heat for the Pulse lasers equal to that of the regular lasers. They become more efficient energy weapons at the cost of tonnage.

But that would be too easy a fix! Can't have that happen here.

[Sug]

A damage increase and a beam duration of .50 for pulse lasers will fix them.

[OznerpaG]

double tonnage of MPLas should make them at minimum = the same range as MLas. just that alone would make MPLas an equal but different weapon to MLas - then you'd be paying double tonnage for 1 extra damage and a faster damage burst which is perfectly reasonable

Edited by JagdFlanker, 25 February 2014 - 04:48 PM.

[MangoBogadog]

MaxKarnage, on 19 February 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

I don't really want to complain as its a step in the right direction (sorta). Pulse lasers still have too many disadvantages and are not very competitive though.

I find it bizarre that instead of improving the other aspects of what are supposed to be closer-ranged/higher-damage trade off weapons they improved the range. Like Triordinant says the heat is the major reason to never use them. The tonnage isn't doing them any favors either and just makes people look at PPCs and large lasers as superior trades I think heh. As long as we have pinpoint damage the major bonus of pulse lasers (more damage in less firing time) is pretty pointless if you can aim.

The balance team should just use medium lasers as the base for energy weapons and balance everything around them. Start thinking "why would I use this instead of a medium laser?".

This^

[Nicholas Carlyle]

lol@ Paul obviously not reading this thread.

[Roland]

No no no no... They're right where they want them, dude. Trust him. He knows.

[Deathlike]

Roland, on 25 February 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

No no no no... They're right where they want them, dude. Trust him. He knows.

IIRC with my Paul history, did he not carry Med Pulse Lasers in his 19 SHS K2?

Maybe we need to recall said time...

[Noesis]

Mech sniper online continues "for now".

[aniviron]

Roland, on 25 February 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

No no no no... They're right where they want them, dude. Trust him. He knows.

Remember months and months and months ago when LPL and MPL got nerfed because pulse lasers were being normalized for further tweaking? This was that further tweaking, which means everything is perfect now.

[Artgathan]

Buffing the range was definitely what brawling weapons needed.

[Dymlos2003]

Noesis, on 25 February 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

Mech sniper online continues "for now".

Funny all my builds are brawler builds. So many pilots don't know how to brawl that they get wrecked. It's fun to see

[Noesis]

Dymlos2003, on 25 February 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Funny all my builds are brawler builds. So many pilots don't know how to brawl that they get wrecked. It's fun to see

Funny all my brawler builds are brawler builds also. Some of us also know how to use Mechs. But happy to hear your anecdotal evidence with personal testimony about brawlers.

None of which changes the reality of the current Meta concerns.