166 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

Cerberias, on 19 February 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

When something is measurable, it becomes less of an opinion, and carries more weight. Atlas hardpoints are fairly low down, especially arms, they are the largest chassis by measurement. They have no jumpjet capabilities, all of these things are measurable. The debate is whether these things are meaningful - my opinion is that they are all very large downfalls of the chassis.

Larger target makes you easier to hit, harder to hide, and usually more of a target for enemy fire.

Low hardpoints mean you expose more chassis before you can fire, which heavily limits your role as a sniper/fire support except against a heavily distracted foe.

No jumpjets stifles mobility both short and long term. Short term you turn slower, you lose the third dimension of dodging (i.e. vertical plane is only really possible with jumpjets), long term you find it harder to go across certain terrain types and shortcuts are harder to use, lowering overall move speed around the map in certain areas. Hills are harder to climb,and maps like canyon are a nightmare.

To play devils advocate, it really depends on your game plan too.

You seem to be comparing the atlas as a pin point alpha asset mostly. The weakness you mention are largely the opposite of poptarting jump snipers.

It can just as easily be a firesoaker enabling his lancemates with high DPS loadouts more time and opportunity to hit the enemy. He goes forward, draws fire, obtains sensor data for his team mates and brings them into the game.

Every mech has strengths and weakness, and every mech has certain common abilities.

But why can't some pilots play their preferred mechs to their chassis strength?

I don't want a game where we all play one type of mech that suits the current 'meta' (thats just a personal opinion)

[Flak Kannon]

Won't and can't agree Mr. original Poster.


575 Drops over 5 Atlas Chassis.

424 kills / 281 deaths

Over a 1.3 win/loss ration over these 575 drops in Atlas Chassis.




Can you over extend yourself as an Atlas pilot and get smoked easy? Yep.
But it really comes down to pilot ability.
Please, no ragging on the 100 ton menace know as the Atlas.

[Clit Beastwood]

Any tool is only as good as the person using it.

[Cerberias]

The game revolves around pinpoint, and the HGN takes damage better than the Atlas due to the extra dimension of mobility provided by JJ's allowing it to more easily spread damage around, especially to legs. Every mech can draw fire, obtain sensor data etc.. doesn't mean its generally a good idea. A JJ mech popping his head over a rock for a split second, can provide the same data as an Atlas walking around the corner, guess which is more safe?

That's a terrible kdr for an Atlas Flak Kannon. I think Atlas suck and I have 2.61 in DDC, I also have 4.62 in a stalker, 3.99 in a 732 highlander. I also have 3.03 win/loss ratio in the stalker.

Note that I never said the Atlas didn't work, but for 100 tonnes, its just not a good weight/power ratio. I'd honestly choose a spider, or a blackjack, tonne for tonne over an Atlas any day of the week, and use less resources from our dropdeck.

Yes Craig, I'm saying that non-poptart or high hardpoint mounted mechs generally suck. You can use them, but youll almost always do better in something with less limitations rather than more. Sorry that I play to win, not to 'play a certain playstyle' even if it isn't a very good/smart one.

Edited by Cerberias, 19 February 2014 - 04:40 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Cerberias, on 19 February 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

Yes Craig, I'm saying that non-poptart or high hardpoint mounted mechs generally suck. You can use them, but youll almost always do better in something with less limitations rather than more. Sorry that I play to win, not to 'play a certain playstyle' even if it isn't a very good/smart one.

An apology wasn't necessary as that wasn't my point but if you do sincerely feel bad about it then that's a different thread.

The point is that just because one mech suit's the current meta that doesn't mean all mechs should be compared to the meta.

Every mech has it's strengths and weaknesses and what one person thinks is rubbish today might be tomorrows meta game.

Good players find ways to unlock the potential of those less than optimal mechs.

So so players will copy what some other guy who was brave / inventive enough to try and then be satisfied with their KDR.

[Cerberias]

I agree, Craig, but what does the Atlas do that another mech doesn't? The only thing I can think of is the ECM, and have the armor of a 100 tonner. It can brawl relatively well I suppose, but in a brawl I'd probably take a shadowhawk/cent over it tonne for tonne.

Hats off to anyone who makes it work, and it can thats for sure, but you're kidding yourself if you think this mech is 'good' at the moment. It's simply you doing good.

[Karl Streiger]

The OT has made a valid point - scaleability.

This problem appears through the current - translation of 2d6 hit locations - to mouse aim hit locations where the size is important.
We all knew that BattleTech armor is a kind of magic - (you hardly get 2mm of RHA over the complete area of an Atlas without overexceeding its mass of 19t)

So strictly spoken - a area of 1m² protected by a ton of armor is thougher as a area of 2m² protected by a ton of armor.

Well the funny part is - the armor concept of battletech is not based on thickness - its based on area - look - the full frontal section of the CT of an Atlas - uses the same HP - > it doesen't matter if you hit the head (not the cockpit) or the pelvis - armor is reduced from the same account.
That is a serious problem - i mean look a the size of this location - i believe the area covered by a commando is smaller - and this mech has more armor - (scaled on the area)

Don't get me wrong - I love my Atlas - and its a good menacing machine of war - but its armor does not fit its size... so no matter what you say or think - the OP is right.

[Craig Steele]

Karl Streiger, on 20 February 2014 - 12:34 AM, said:

The OT has made a valid point - scaleability.

This problem appears through the current - translation of 2d6 hit locations - to mouse aim hit locations where the size is important.
We all knew that BattleTech armor is a kind of magic - (you hardly get 2mm of RHA over the complete area of an Atlas without overexceeding its mass of 19t)

So strictly spoken - a area of 1m² protected by a ton of armor is thougher as a area of 2m² protected by a ton of armor.

Well the funny part is - the armor concept of battletech is not based on thickness - its based on area - look - the full frontal section of the CT of an Atlas - uses the same HP - > it doesen't matter if you hit the head (not the cockpit) or the pelvis - armor is reduced from the same account.
That is a serious problem - i mean look a the size of this location - i believe the area covered by a commando is smaller - and this mech has more armor - (scaled on the area)

Don't get me wrong - I love my Atlas - and its a good menacing machine of war - but its armor does not fit its size... so no matter what you say or think - the OP is right.

Someone showed me a few days ago that if you take the canon density of a Gauss round and divide it into the tonnage of the ammo allowance, every Guass round is a projectile with a density somewhere between styrofoam and wood.

idk how much real world physics went into the BT universe

*handwavium*

[Karl Streiger]

Craig Steele, on 20 February 2014 - 12:41 AM, said:

Someone showed me a few days ago that if you take the canon density of a Gauss round and divide it into the tonnage of the ammo allowance, every Guass round is a projectile with a density somewhere between styrofoam and wood.

idk how much real world physics went into the BT universe

*handwavium*

What is wrong with the Gauss Round?
In MWO its a 100kg solid projectile -> lets say its a 1:10 arrow (tungsten core with a shell of a ferro magnetic material)
may be a diameter of 155mm with a 70mm subcaliber sabot
You could also increase the mass of the penetrator because ( increase the lenght: for example 1:40)
) and reduce the caliber of the gun - (helps to reduce the mass of the accelerator
Could have a final diameter of 90mm.
So the Gauss Round is working.
Maybe the armor is a kind of Carbo Nanotubes - thouher as steel but only 1/7th of its mass

[JigglyMoobs]

I have over 1000 games in the atlas ddc and over 500 in the rs, almost all solo, mostly against ok to great pilots. I have kdr over 2.3 in both and over 400 damage per round.

These days I take my DDC out once every couple of days and let me tell you, the Atlas is the worst assault apart from possibly the Battle master (never played it so I don't know). Now its fun to play, because its a tactical challenge and still a monster at point blank range, but it absolutely sucks.

It didn't used to suck. Atlases used to be great until there was the horror of the terrain engine change. All of a sudden my beloved big mech went from a 100 ton ballerina to a total clutz that gets stuck or slows down on any rock or minor ripple in the terrain. No more running patterns up and down hills to employ those low mounted weapons. Now you just hide behind a hill hoping the enemy doesnt know you are there until he stumbles into you.

Ahh, but at least on my rs I can still shoot the 4 big blue beams of death along with my gauss round directly into the enemy's face right?

Nope. Ghost heat killed the 4 beam alpha. Charge delay took away my gauss (just doesn't work on the atlas slow turning torso), ac20s got slowed down so much you have to toss it like a football, and what those nerfs didn't do HSR took good care of.

So now a days I employ my DDC as an ecm troll. You can find me hiding behind a hill "supporting" the team until some poor noob comes within SRM range. (And today even the srms were working like you know what).

I still play it because its a challenge, its alpha is awesome when it actually works and its still nice to be a 100 ton bad ass, bit if I actually want to win against somebody tough? Not taking the atlas, that's for sure.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 20 February 2014 - 01:32 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Karl Streiger, on 20 February 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

What is wrong with the Gauss Round?
In MWO its a 100kg solid projectile -> lets say its a 1:10 arrow (tungsten core with a shell of a ferro magnetic material)
may be a diameter of 155mm with a 70mm subcaliber sabot
You could also increase the mass of the penetrator because ( increase the lenght: for example 1:40)
) and reduce the caliber of the gun - (helps to reduce the mass of the accelerator
Could have a final diameter of 90mm.
So the Gauss Round is working.
Maybe the armor is a kind of Carbo Nanotubes - thouher as steel but only 1/7th of its mass

Here

1/4 meter of cubic material apparently, and then calculate back from a 1 ton ammo allowance.

http://mwomercs.com/...s/page__st__580

[Ordellus]

I wouldn't say they suck, but they sure as **** aren't the pinnacle of mech destruction they are supposed to be.

It's as if they designed them to be, and then thought "but the light mech pilots will cry at not being able to kill a Tank with a pistol... better screw up the mechanics".

[lsp]

Outlaw, on 19 February 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

The problem is, the people who tend to pilot the Atlas dont really know how to use them. Too often i see players trying to go with a Meta based build to get kills instead of using the Atlas for its intended purpose. The intended purpose i refer to is being a battering ram that the team follows, smash into enemy lines, sew chaos and while the enemy scrambles to regroup the teammates following you finish them off. I have had a good bit of success utilizing it in this way, even bagged a few kills doing it, however it does rely on the team actually committing when you do, and if they don't, you end up losing your mech in vain and watch as your team fails horribly afterwards.

This.

[Lukoi Banacek]

It isnt that the Atlas is no good.

It is that pinpoint convergence with front loaded damage weapons on jump capable mechs is too good of a mechanice. Disable that mechanic and suddenly the Atlas for all of its faults suddenly becomes more effective again.

This thread implies that Atlas need some sort of buff....that is not the case. Game mechanics that allow for unintended synergy need a tweaking and then Atlas can be reviewed again in context of the next "meta."

P.s. meta builds work fine on Atlas....you just have to operate around the JJ issue. My PPC/UAC DDC is fantastic fun and extremely effective (now its LPL/UAC build to test the LPL improvements....ECM really helps get you close enough to use them).

[Joseph Mallan]

Cerberias, on 19 February 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

Joseph, you have very little knowledge building mechs, that Atlas build from the other forum shows that. 1.3 KDR in it? Thats terrible, you're obviously an average pilot at best. Please stop attempting to put other people down for legitimate points. The Atlas (apart from perhaps the DDC) is a trash mech, the DDC is only useful for ECM coverage. It has no JJ's, no high mounted hardpoints, bad hitboxes and is easily the biggest target in the game. If you don't understand why these things make it a bad mech, sucks for you, but it's not really debatable.

Edit: I mean ffs, I have 3.28 after 230 games in my spider.

LOL> I on't play the Meta, but bring what ever you want vs me an my builds... I don't fear forum insults,

Also...
I think I have it recorded multiple times That I am only slightly above average as my stats seem to back up. As to putting people down.

Quote

"You have little knowledge building Mechs"

I have been building Mechs since 1986, That includes all makes and models of the CBT Franchise.

Quote

1.3 K/D in it, That's Terrible.

1.3 That is 30% above .500 Thats equal to a Hall o' Fame pitcher or a Steroid shooting power hitter! I think I like being Average like that!

So... Take your own advice, and step back. You are not good at this.

3.28 In a Mech that has hitreg issues? You really wanna use that as your proof? I was almost a 4.0 in my (F)Atlas before the Missile Fix... show us a unbroken Mech or Like me, pick one that folks are raging against as being crap, and show you are doing well in it. IF an Atlas is a garbage Mech, and I have a winning record with Positive KDR results... Imagine what I'd be doing to the player base in a really good mech design?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 February 2014 - 05:29 AM.

[3rdworld]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 February 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

show us a unbroken Mech or Like me, pick one that folks are raging against as being crap, and show you are doing well in it.

I'll be your huckleberry

And yes, the 7M is a bad mech. No if ands or buts about it

But the Altas isn't a "bad" mech, people just have it in their head that the largest assault should be the best assault. That isn't true. Does it need a buff? Yes. Is it outclassed by Victor & Highlander? Yes.

There is still no mech in the game that can unload the kind of damage an atlas is capable of throwing down in such a short amount of time. But it is not that great of a mech, because half the maps it is never going to get the chance, or you have to have a strategy specifically in place to do it. Where the Vic & Highlander are good in pretty much any situation.

Edited by 3rdworld, 20 February 2014 - 06:02 AM.

[Purlana]

To defeat an Atlas get on a higher slope and shoot down, JJ's are a plus. The Atlas will start crying, I know I do when I pilot one.

Canyon is also a nightmare for them if you know what your doing.

Edited by Purlana, 20 February 2014 - 06:12 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Purlana, on 20 February 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

To defeat an Atlas get on a higher slope and shoot down, JJ's are a plus. The Atlas will start crying, I know I do when I pilot one.

Canyon is also a nightmare for them if you know what your doing.

You know part of having Arms was that we could move them!!!

[Purlana]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 February 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

You know part of having Arms was that we could move them!!!

Depending on the build the Atlas may only have 2 Mlasers. I could stand there and trade shots with that and still win. Also (in canyon) if the Atlas is down in the ditch he won't be able to aim high enough.

Edited by Purlana, 20 February 2014 - 06:23 AM.

[Gambyt]

In my opinion the Atlas still is on top of the food chain...but like i tend to say the pilot for it need to have his brain functioning.....Of course if you go kamikaze( like me on my first games piloting it) charge a full lance without support of course your armor seems to be 0..but if you work with your team or pay attention to the map to see what they are doing you will realise that actualy you are piloting a mech with op armor and a crazy amount of firepower.