343 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 04:03 AM, said:

They didn't ask how Wolf launched a 4th wave early because they were all trying to work out who the next Il Khan would be and well to be honest, why would they ask? No one asked about the internal workings of another Clan, they just judged what the outcome was.

And to be frank, Ulric's logistics skills weren't exactly rocket science. He basically spared a few techs / merchants and gave them instructions to scrounge everything useful from IS planets now, rather than what other clans were doing which was "when the techs and merchants catch up we'll see what there is".

So he wasn't doing anything unique, just doing it quicker.

If you can easily recognize the reasons behind Ulric's success, why the other Khans did not? And if they did, why did they not try to imitate him?

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As for Tukayyid, the source books I have don't mention anything about Ulric coaching the other clans on logistics, it reads as they ran their own show. To be frank, as Il Khan he could have ORDERED certain things if he thought they were warranted but he was more concerned with Natasha losing all the bids so Wolf Clan would get the easiest run.

Where is Jarett Corbett when i need him?
Ok, i will find the right quite myself. Hold on.
*looks into the forums*
I cannot find his post or the quote, but i swear it said something like this: "Ulric Kerensky warned the Khans about the needs of a prolonged campaign (like energy weapons) but he left to the other Khans the decision about how to prepare for the battle, since the IlKhan may have not interfered with single Clan matters". In fact, the IlKhan takes decisions for the Clans a whole, letting each individual Clan to take its own decisions.

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Novacat fought for 'several days" without ammunition before being forced off planet (they were the Clan that stayed on planet the longest according to these sources, the Com Guard just couldn't shake them) and Wolf Clan itself ran short of ammo. The Com Guards recognised this the first night and launched raids on their remaining logistic dumps. So even if you accept that Ulric had better logistic understanding, he still under estimated for Tukayyid (or his Khans ignored him? they certainly ran short either way)

I remember from the novels that the Wolf forces repelled the ComGuards' attacks to their supply convoys and depots, and anyway they fared better than the other Clans.

[Craig Steele]

CyclonerM, on 09 March 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

If you can easily recognize the reasons behind Ulric's success, why the other Khans did not? (1) And if they did, why did they not try to imitate him?


Where is Jarett Corbett when i need him?
Ok, i will find the right quite myself. Hold on.
*looks into the forums*
I cannot find his post or the quote, but i swear it said something like this: "Ulric Kerensky warned the Khans about the needs of a prolonged campaign (like energy weapons) but he left to the other Khans the decision about how to prepare for the battle, since the IlKhan may have not interfered with single Clan matters". (2) In fact, the IlKhan takes decisions for the Clans a whole, letting each individual Clan to take its own decisions.


I remember from the novels that the Wolf forces repelled the ComGuards' attacks to their supply convoys and depots, (3) and anyway they fared better than the other Clans.

(1) Well I have the benefit of the Comstar Field reports which aren't compulsary reading for Khans

(2) OK, I can go relook at my books too, If he did he did it's just not something that stuck in my mind. But that doesn't change that as Il Khan he could have ordered it had he considered it warranted. Yes the Il Khan is supposed to allow each Clan the flexibility to pursue their own war, but he has the power to intervene should he judge a Clans actions to be detrimental to his overall duty.

For example, Ulric had no problems telling the Jade Flacons and Smoke Jaguars to suck it up when he ordered planets surrendered for the reserve Clans to base off. That's taking hard fought possessions off a Clan, a lot bigger step than saying "primary energy and 3 times normal ammo, thats an order."

Either Ulric didn't believe the logistic issue warranted his further attentions as it was not critical to the overall effort or (more likely) it's another example his sabotage of the Invasion overall.

(3) Yup, the stuff i have here reads they protected their logistic centres early on day 2 then regrouped for the final battle in the mountains. Before that battle could be decided decisivily (and this source books as I quoted above, heavy casualities, not much ground taken, dead Khan, so it must have been hot stuff) that Ulric declared the campaign lost and hence saved the Clan Wolf from whatever outcome it may have been. Comstar might have counter attacked, they had with almost every other Clan and forced Clan Wolf off planet but we will never know. They might not have too?

By virtue of the fact the battle was called before being pushed off planet though, Clan Wolf was judged to have won their trial.

[CyclonerM]

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

By virtue of the fact the battle was called before being pushed off planet though, Clan Wolf was judged to have won their trial.

I remember they achieved their objectives before calling an end to the battle.

You are right. After all, Ulric Kerensky WAS sabotaging the Crusaders. You may see it as treachery, but everyone has his own views, and i see it as saving the Clans from themselves, from being blinded by their arrogance, to make them learn the hard lessons they should learn.

But he was not a coward. In his great plan to weak the Crusaders, he would have either stopped the invasion or make sure his Clan was the first to land on Terra and become the IlClan. He has used no treachery in his conquest campaign and if the Clans were not stopped on Tukayyid (actually proposed by the Precentor Martial, NOT Ulric) the Wolf Clan may have reached Terra.

But. How much time before the IS united to drive the Clanners from Terra? Maybe they might have even won concessions from a fleeing ComStar Primus (and his First Circuit). The war could never be won by the Clans for sheer numbers.

That said, i see Ulric Kerensky saved the Clans from a far worse defeat they could not see
It would be like kicking someone in the back to make him dodge a bullet, quiaff?

*Feel like speaking to the Grand Council! *

[Craig Steele]

CyclonerM, on 09 March 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

I remember they achieved their objectives before calling an end to the battle.

You are right. After all, Ulric Kerensky WAS sabotaging the Crusaders. You may see it as treachery, but everyone has his own views, and i see it as saving the Clans from themselves, from being blinded by their arrogance, to make them learn the hard lessons they should learn.

But he was not a coward. In his great plan to weak the Crusaders, he would have either stopped the invasion or make sure his Clan was the first to land on Terra and become the IlClan. He has used no treachery in his conquest campaign and if the Clans were not stopped on Tukayyid (actually proposed by the Precentor Martial, NOT Ulric) the Wolf Clan may have reached Terra.

But. How much time before the IS united to drive the Clanners from Terra? Maybe they might have even won concessions from a fleeing ComStar Primus (and his First Circuit). The war could never be won by the Clans for sheer numbers.

That said, i see Ulric Kerensky saved the Clans from a far worse defeat they could not see
It would be like kicking someone in the back to make him dodge a bullet, quiaff?

*Feel like speaking to the Grand Council! *

Neg

It was proposed by Focht sure, AFTER Ulric told him that Terra was their target and that the Clans would be rulers of the IS once they got there (ie, not Comstar). Ofc Focht hit the panic button and looked for a way to stop the Clans outside of the current format of resisting the Invasion which they were loosing. Appealing to their cultural aspects was sure to generate a favourable outcome for Comstar. Focht was no fool, but Ulric gave him everything he needed to defend Terra, whether he did it by design or stupidity / arrogance is open to debate I suppose.

You have to remember, Ulric wasn't just stopping the Crusaders, he was stopping all the Clans. He was denying them all the promise that Nicholas had made to them. He was disobeying the edict of the Grand Council by a majority vote and tested in a trial as true. Sure the Crusaders were at the forefront, but Ulric was betraying all Clan culture, including his own Wolves.

And sure maybe the IS unite after Terra falls, maybe they don't? Maybe war rages on. Maybe the 10 other Clans back in the homeworlds get called into the fight to defend what the Invaders had taken. Coyote, Steel Vipers, Goliath Scorpians were all warden Clans with toumans roughly the same as the invaders in size. Ulric only needed to 'reward' those Wardens that had voted with him to add half again the Invasion force.

Imagine that, Terra falls and Ulric points each of these three Clans in a State direction and says, go for it lads, thats yours for as far as you can go. Coyote heads off towards Davion, the Vipers smack into Liao and the Scorpians get to drive in Marik direction.

Politcally JF and SJ still got their hands full and Ulric has stepped on no ones toes. It's quite a reasonable scenario that could have evenutuated.

Add in some Crusaders for whatever political reasoning and I suspect the Clans would have held the Hemogany worlds at least for a long long time.

[Ninjivitis]

Ulric Kerensky did NOT betray the clans, crusader or otherwise. The Battle for Tukayyid was an honorable showdown that avoided collateral damage, shortened the invasion, and ultimately avoided waste. Any prior events became null and void; the clans had the chance to take terra. They might have succeeded like the Ghost Bears and Wolves if they had not underestimated their enemy so grossly, bid too low, ignored the terrain,and ignored the warnings Ulric gave about prolonged battles and the logistics involved.

The crusaders can cry all they want, it was a fair one. It is the clan way.

[CyclonerM]

Ulric was not betraying the Wardens in Clan Wolf and in other Clans.

[Craig Steele]

Ninjivitis, on 09 March 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Ulric Kerensky did NOT betray the clans, crusader or otherwise. The Battle for Tukayyid was an honorable showdown that avoided collateral damage, shortened the invasion, and ultimately avoided waste. Any prior events became null and void; the clans had the chance to take terra. They might have succeeded like the Ghost Bears and Wolves if they had not underestimated their enemy so grossly, bid too low, ignored the terrain,and ignored the warnings Ulric gave about prolonged battles and the logistics involved.

The crusaders can cry all they want, it was a fair one. It is the clan way.

LOL, did you red any of the canon I have summarised?

Ulric absolutaly did betray the Clans, it's not even open to debate.

No Crusaders are crying my friend, but its interesting that you only mention Ghost Bear and Wolf Clan in your Tukayyid summary. You do know of course that Jade Falcon was adjudged the same as Ghost Bear quiaff?

My comments you might not agree with with your blind adhereance, but I at least I do not dismiss the Wardens before I come to a conclusion.

CyclonerM, on 09 March 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Ulric was not betraying the Wardens in Clan Wolf and in other Clans.

Depends how you look at it. Remember before Ulric came along, the Warden view was still that they would take Terra. Ulric took from the Warden Wolves the opportunity to do that. In the other Clans, the Warden view remained they woudl take Terra (just with a different timing), remember the Steel Vipers?

This is essentially the heart of Ulrics treachery, that he fought against all the Clans taking Terra as Nicholas had promised them they would. Warden or Crusader, Ulric fought them all to save the other side (Inner Sphere) and thats the definition of a traitor.

[Koniving]

KuroNyra, on 05 March 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

So, am I correct or there is some little secret hidded?

In general, the Clans became akin to Star Trek's Klingons (the newer ones not Kirk's Klingons). Honor, loyalty, tradition, and with all glory to the warrior caste.

If you didn't have a gun in your hand or the controls of a Battlemech handy, you were no one.

Who'd want to be a scientist then? What glory is there in conquering an enemy you studied and analyzed in some lab? Where is the hunt? Where is the fight, when all you do is pick apart their weaknesses? How short lived would the heat of battle be then? Where's the honor or the glory?

Most clans announce their attack before they do it. Land on the planet, let them know you're coming into town to kill their pilots, massacre their armies and even leave your calling card as you walk out the door and off the planet. Then come back and do it.

What Clan Wolf had was a little more brain power for things other than glory and honor.

[Tesunie]

If I understand clan Wolf's actions during the invasion, they didn't want to "conquer" the Inner Sphere. They did want to restore order, but at a better timing. If I grasp what they really wanted to see happen, was they wanted to basically be "invited" onto Terra, and be placed in charge of the SLDF/SL. They didn't wish to destroy the Inner Sphere, but instead "police" (for lack of a better term) the Inner Sphere houses, reducing the effects of fights and wars, if not out right eliminating War altogether.

Guess why during Operation Bulldog, Clan Nova Cat basically gave nothing but mock trials to the Inner Sphere. They saw them waving the Star League banner. Their goal was to recreate the Star League, and saw the invasion as the event that created the new Star League. Thus, their job was done and it was time to join into the Star League as the new SLDF.

This is during the Twilight of the clans. Clan Nova Cat even went so far as to help the Inner Sphere in their Trial of Refusal to the Invasion, taking on a fight for the Inner Sphere instead onto themselves.


PS: The Clans didn't always respect "Honorable Combat". Recall Turtle Bay, where the Smoke Jaguars bombarded a planet from orbit because a few "freebirths" were angry and rioting about how they were being treated... If anything, that was also very unclan like. And that was one of the largest reasons the Inner Sphere chose Smoke Jaguar to be eliminated out of all the clans. Honorable combat would have been going down onto the planet, challenging the freebirths to a trial, pulling out (even by force) the leaders of the movement, and beating them up in a circle of "not-so-equal"s...
Also, Clan Jade Falcon almost didn't challenge Clan Wolf for a trial of Absorption, as they knew it was going to be a hard fight. They were actually afraid that, win or lose, another clan would try to absorb them in return after the trial and they would be too weak to fend them off. In the end, they decided to take the chance (with arrogance) and went for it.
As another note, in the Wolf Refusal to the Invasion, they fought 4 to 1 odds against themselves. The clans staked it against them (And as Ulrik was the one bidding, he got the credit for the score, and he may have talked them down out of intimidation or a "what, you really need that much to take on poor little us?" kind of remarks...). That would be like, one wolf star vs 4 other clan stars. That's 5 mechs vs 20 mechs. The fact that Wolf almost won, and narrowly lost, should tell you a lot about Wolf's Strength. They didn't take the easy targets. They also fought Steiner last I knew in the invasion as well as the FFR. Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar took on FFR and Combine. Jade Falcon took on FedCom.

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 09 March 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

If I understand clan Wolf's actions during the invasion, they didn't want to "conquer" the Inner Sphere (1). They did want to restore order, but at a better timing. If I grasp what they really wanted to see happen, was they wanted to basically be "invited" onto Terra, and be placed in charge of the SLDF/SL. They didn't wish to destroy the Inner Sphere (2), but instead "police" (for lack of a better term) the Inner Sphere houses, reducing the effects of fights and wars, if not out right eliminating War altogether.

Guess why during Operation Bulldog, Clan Nova Cat basically gave nothing but mock trials to the Inner Sphere (3). They saw them waving the Star League banner. Their goal was to recreate the Star League, and saw the invasion as the event that created the new Star League. Thus, their job was done and it was time to join into the Star League as the new SLDF.

This is during the Twilight of the clans. Clan Nova Cat even went so far as to help the Inner Sphere in their Trial of Refusal to the Invasion, taking on a fight for the Inner Sphere instead onto themselves.


PS: The Clans didn't always respect "Honorable Combat". Recall Turtle Bay, where the Smoke Jaguars bombarded a planet from orbit because a few "freebirths" were angry and rioting about how they were being treated... (4) If anything, that was also very unclan like. And that was one of the largest reasons the Inner Sphere chose Smoke Jaguar to be eliminated (5) out of all the clans. Honorable combat would have been going down onto the planet, challenging the freebirths to a trial, pulling out (even by force) the leaders of the movement, and beating them up in a circle of "not-so-equal"s...
Also, Clan Jade Falcon almost didn't challenge Clan Wolf for a trial of Absorption, as they knew it was going to be a hard fight. They were actually afraid that, win or lose, another clan would try to absorb them in return after the trial and they would be too weak to fend them off. (6) In the end, they decided to take the chance (with arrogance) and went for it.
As another note, in the Wolf Refusal to the Invasion, they fought 4 to 1 odds against themselves. The clans staked it against them (7) (And as Ulrik was the one bidding, he got the credit for the score, and he may have talked them down out of intimidation or a "what, you really need that much to take on poor little us?" kind of remarks...). That would be like, one wolf star vs 4 other clan stars. That's 5 mechs vs 20 mechs. The fact that Wolf almost won, and narrowly lost, should tell you a lot about Wolf's Strength. They didn't take the easy targets. They also fought Steiner last I knew in the invasion as well (8) as the FFR. Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar took on FFR and Combine. Jade Falcon took on FedCom.

(1) No, it was Ulric and only Ulric (although he did convert many to his cause subsequently) that didn't want to seize Terra, Clan Wolf was Warden but all Wardens envisaged that control of Terra / Hemagony was the vision Nicholas had granted them.

(2) All Clans believed the ruling houses needed to be cast down and that combat with those House Lords was inevitable. True some Wardens had different views on how they ultimately were "accepted" as the defenders of humanity, but none were under any illusion that the House Lords had armies and would resist.

(3) Guess no longer, canon is very specific. The "Dragon Roars" source book (Operation Bulldog) quite clearly articulates that "Reportedly, Theodore Kurita's attempts to persuade the Nova Cats were greatly aided by the visions of a Nova Cat Khan in which a dragon severely mauled a Nova Cat, and in which a Nova Cat and a Dragon together killed a Smoke Jaguar" pg 8. The Khans of Nova Cat ordered pre emptive batchalls for their forces (one Star Colonel decided his planets / clusters fate on a coin toss and called 'edge') out of fear. Unless self preservation is an attractive attribute, there was nothing noble about it, the wanted to be on the winning side.

(4) You only tell half the story and come to a conclusion. The "freebirths were angry and rioting about how they were being treated" yes, but they were being treated as such because Clan Trueborn warriors had been assassinated outside of mech combat. In Clan culture no one has the right to take a warriors life except another warrior. The warriors attempted to find the guilty party but were hindered by the civilians who activilty protected their identity. This is not to say that I agree with the end result, but it's far from the victim / atrocity picture you painted. The SJ's gave the civilians time and space to comply and they remained combative and it is extremly Clan like that if someone wants to fight, the warriors fight.

(5) Again incorrect. The main reasons were as follows;
- DC culture allowed for greater control of media which enabled better hiding of the troop movements required
- SJ's were somewhat isolated polically, Nova Cats were not friendly and JF still rebuilding after the refusal war. Bulldog planned on the GB's helping SJ's but this did not eventuate
- Theo thought he could turn the NC (he was right)
- Luthien (and hence the DC's continued ability to resist) was under imminent threat as it remained above the Tukayyid line and the potential loss of DC would be a disaster for the IS in general.

(6) Clan JF was already fighting and beating Clan Wolf when the absorbtion was announced, there was never any doubt in JF's mind they would absorb Clan Wolf, they had virtually won already. Whilst the "predations of another clan" is a theoritical risk, canon shows that after every other inter clan trial (Wolverine, Widowmaker, Mongoose, even the Fire Mandril Kindraa one) that the victim was never taken advantage of.

I theorise that the Clans themselves self policed the scenario of taking advantage of a weakened Clan that had carried out the Grand Councils will. Remember these trials are all done with the consent of the Grand Council, so it would be a fine line if you supported Jade Falcon to fight on your behalf, and then sniped them after they had proven your point.

(7) Absolute fallacy. Clan culture is that the odds are determined by the vote. In this case it was 16 to one. EVERY Clan voted for the Invasion except Clan Wolf. Ulric demanded a trial of refusal as was his right but he did so knowing the odds were 16 - 1. He had exactly zero input into the bidding done by the other clans. Whether they lost by buckets or lost narrowly, they still lost and hence culture wise, were bound to the will of the Grand Council.

(8) Lets look at the numbers then for Clan Wolf

Wave 1 - attacked 10 systems 2 were FC, they faced 3 mech regiment or more defenders, 2 of those were on the FC systems, 1 was on FRR. So on the 7 FRR systems they faced militia or small company's / batallion formations

Wave 2 - attacked 6 sytems, all FRR. faced no force more than 2 battallions in strength and only on 2 systems (so 4 were militia only)

Wave 3 - attacked 11 systems 3 FC. faced regimental + oppostion on 5 systems (including the capital Rasalhague)

Wave 4 - attacked 16 systems, 3 FC. faced regimental + opposition on 3 systems (I included the GKT factory regiment here as even though it was retired pilots and trainees, it was regiment strength)

So prior to the pause, Clan Wolf conquered 43 systems, of which 8 were FC (20% yes?) and faced significant oppostion (regiment+) on 11 systems, or 25%.

Tell me where these numbers (direct from canon source books) support a Clan Wolf that was tearing apart a strong Inner Sphere army. 75% of the planets were virtually undefended by significant forces. Many battles were against C grade mercenary units. There is simply no basis for an argument that Clan Wolf was a dominant military force BECAUSE they took more IS planets and took less losses. They were fighting (largely) the weakest of the armies the IS had AND had no fear of their flanks due to the support given them by other Clans.

If anyone wants to argue that Clan Wolf was a strong military, they need to come up with a better argument because canon is quite clear,

a) Clan Wolf LOST the major interclan battles from 3048 - 3058,
b Clan Wolf had the easiest Invasion corridor facing the weakest opponent and protected by JF and GB.

ergo, their military capability / acuman was not as great as other Clans.

Edited by Craig Steele, 09 March 2014 - 06:36 PM.

[Koniving]

Tesunie, on 09 March 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

PS: The Clans didn't always respect "Honorable Combat".

Different Clans, different values.

Jade Falcon was another for dishonorable combat.

[Craig Steele]

Koniving, on 09 March 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

Different Clans, different values.

Jade Falcon was another for dishonorable combat.

Yes, all Clans had examples.

April 3050 Saint John FRR vs Clan Wolf - " ... but surrendered when Star Colonel Ramon Sender threatened civilians" pg 58 Clan Wolf Source book

Nov 3051 Memmingen FRR vs Clan Wolf - "In his rage, he (Star Colonel Marcos Riddick) ordered the village of Danton and it's neighbour Greenvale, razed as an example...... Hundreds of civilians died" pg 64 Clan Wolf source book

Nov 3051 Volders FRR vs Clan Wolf "Natasha Kerensky dispatched Star Commodore Nisen with several jumpships loaded with empty dropships ...... recommending they surrender to avoid the coming battle" pg 65 Clan Wolf Source book.

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

(1) No, it was Ulric and only Ulric (although he did convert many to his cause subsequently) that didn't want to seize Terra, Clan Wolf was Warden but all Wardens envisaged that control of Terra / Hemagony was the vision Nicholas had granted them.

I think you are confused. Not once did I say "the Wardens". I said "Clan Wolf". Clan Wolf, lead by Ulric (which he converted around at least half his clan into his ideology, or he probably wouldn't have been voted as ilkan(Kan? Leader) of his clan, not to mention probably would have started a lot of trials otherwise). Ulric didn't want to invade the Inner Sphere. A lot of other clans (Wardens) didn't want to either. Though that view changed from one clan to the next. The Wardens wanted to protect the Inner Sphere, even from themselves. But when the time was right. The Crusaders wanted to take over the Inner Sphere by force, and run it themselves. Though, in some parts, these are very similar view points (as with Steel Viper that you keep pointing out), they do have several key differences. One wants to conquer the Inner Sphere and subjugate it. The other wants to protect it, even if it means to conquer it.

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

(2) All Clans believed the ruling houses needed to be cast down and that combat with those House Lords was inevitable. True some Wardens had different views on how they ultimately were "accepted" as the defenders of humanity, but none were under any illusion that the House Lords had armies and would resist.

Not all the clans did. Some (like the Wolves), thought that if they could get the houses to work together and reform the Star League, then they could create the Golden Age all over again. This is what the Nova Cats (as I distinctly recall reading right out of the "Cannon" Twilight of the Clans books, which mentioned no such vision as you recall, but that is still very plausible too) believed. As soon as the "Star League" was knocking on their door, they joined up seeing it as what their goal truly was, even if not achieved in the manner they expected.

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

(3) Guess no longer, canon is very specific. The "Dragon Roars" source book (Operation Bulldog) quite clearly articulates that "Reportedly, Theodore Kurita's attempts to persuade the Nova Cats were greatly aided by the visions of a Nova Cat Khan in which a dragon severely mauled a Nova Cat, and in which a Nova Cat and a Dragon together killed a Smoke Jaguar" pg 8. The Khans of Nova Cat ordered pre emptive batchalls for their forces (one Star Colonel decided his planets / clusters fate on a coin toss and called 'edge') out of fear. Unless self preservation is an attractive attribute, there was nothing noble about it, the wanted to be on the winning side.

Which is more cannon then, a source book I do not have, the the Twilight of the Clans novels I actually do own. Though, I don't doubt your sources either. I just don't have access to them is all.

So, you now accuse Clan Nova Cat of acting unclan like... (And betraying the Clans as well.)

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

(4) You only tell half the story and come to a conclusion. The "freebirths were angry and rioting about how they were being treated" yes, but they were being treated as such because Clan Trueborn warriors had been assassinated outside of mech combat. In Clan culture no one has the right to take a warriors life except another warrior. The warriors attempted to find the guilty party but were hindered by the civilians who activilty protected their identity. This is not to say that I agree with the end result, but it's far from the victim / atrocity picture you painted. The SJ's gave the civilians time and space to comply and they remained combative and it is extremly Clan like that if someone wants to fight, the warriors fight.
(5) Again incorrect. The main reasons were as follows;
- DC culture allowed for greater control of media which enabled better hiding of the troop movements required
- SJ's were somewhat isolated polically, Nova Cats were not friendly and JF still rebuilding after the refusal war. Bulldog planned on the GB's helping SJ's but this did not eventuate
- Theo thought he could turn the NC (he was right)
- Luthien (and hence the DC's continued ability to resist) was under imminent threat as it remained above the Tukayyid line and the potential loss of DC would be a disaster for the IS in general.

For the record, you tell the "full story", in a fairly skewed manner. Clan Wolf was ready to sit on the sidelines for the invasion, but was forced to join as "punishment and to be embarrassed to join and participate into the invasion they so argued against." They did not get to choose their corridor of occupation. The other clans chose that for them. Wolf decided that, if forced to join into the invasion, they were going to place more shame on the Crusader clans in the process. They, with better logistics and planing, out paced a lot of the other clans. They also had comstar support pacifying the populaces to help them out, as well as using skills and securing their supply lines.

They continued to place shame on the other clans in the invasion by their fast pace of advancement. Even on Tukayyid, they were the only one to actually accomplish all of their goals, with Ghost Bear getting one objective out of two.

Even then though, Ulric was actually doing everything he could to hinder the other clans, and improve his own clan's standing. He was actually doing everything in his power to make his clan the Ilclan, which is very clan like, and followed the orders of the high council as well. He gambled, and either way it went, he saw it as a win. Either the invasion would fail, or Wolf would be best situated to take Terra if they won. http://www.sarna.net...i/Clan_Invasion

Also, as far as the other Trials of Absorption, they were given the "privlage" of taking those clans down, with the other clans told not to interfere or take advantage of Wolf during those times. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Wolf http://www.sarna.net.../Clan_Wolverine and http://www.sarna.net...Clan_Widowmaker . This also means that, what Clan Wolf did during the invasion wasn't that uncommon in the Clans history, as Nicholas Kerensky did just about the same thing, leading to the destruction of Clan Wolverine.

"Although they lost a Trial of Refusal against the motion to invade the Inner Sphere and were selected for the invasion force as punishment for voting against the pro-invasion majority, the Wolves decided to beat the Crusaders at their own game. They participated in it nonetheless and soon outdid all other Clans in seizing more worlds and at a faster pace than any other Clan."

Oh, and more "politicing" and "unclan like ways" that brought on the invasion... http://www.sarna.net.../Outbound_Light "When Khan Showers finally announced the capture of the ComStar vessel, he selectively presented the most damning evidence, such as the growing power of the Federated Commonwealth and the rediscovery of much Star League technology that had been lost over two centuries of near-constant warfare, and was able to convince the rest of the Clans that they themselves faced imminent invasion from the "barbarians" of the Inner Sphere."

PS: If the Smoke Jaguars really wanted to play it by honor code, dropping bombs on people who can't even shoot back was the most cowardly way of doing it. Should have been in mechs, killing and destroying then, where people "might" be able to attack with some form of honor...

http://www.sarna.net...le_Bay_Massacre

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

(6) Clan JF was already fighting and beating Clan Wolf when the absorbtion was announced, there was never any doubt in JF's mind they would absorb Clan Wolf, they had virtually won already. Whilst the "predations of another clan" is a theoritical risk, canon shows that after every other inter clan trial (Wolverine, Widowmaker, Mongoose, even the Fire Mandril Kindraa one) that the victim was never taken advantage of.

I theorise that the Clans themselves self policed the scenario of taking advantage of a weakened Clan that had carried out the Grand Councils will. Remember these trials are all done with the consent of the Grand Council, so it would be a fine line if you supported Jade Falcon to fight on your behalf, and then sniped them after they had proven your point.

" When the Council tried Ulric for treason and voted him out of office, Clan Wolf all but destroyed itself in preventing the Jade Falcons from breaking the truce by instigating a Trial of Refusal on a scale never before seen outside of a Trial of Annihilation."

"An initially successful Jade Falcon attempt to Absorb the remaining Wolves was effectively made moot with the creation of the Clan Jade Wolf, an offshoot of Clan Jade Falcon, made up of captured Wolf warriors who were "absorbed" into the Jade Falcons."

Looks like I was wrong, but I didn't have any books on this part. I probably read it somewhere...

Anyway, the Clans don't call trial of absorptions without a very good cause. That absorption was an odd one, as it happened because of the scale of the trial of Refusal... It wasn't a normal case.

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

(7) Absolute fallacy. Clan culture is that the odds are determined by the vote. In this case it was 16 to one. EVERY Clan voted for the Invasion except Clan Wolf. Ulric demanded a trial of refusal as was his right but he did so knowing the odds were 16 - 1. He had exactly zero input into the bidding done by the other clans. Whether they lost by buckets or lost narrowly, they still lost and hence culture wise, were bound to the will of the Grand Council.

http://www.sarna.net...rial_of_Refusal

"For example, if the vote was won 2:1, then the winners can field a force double that of the losers. However after the pre-trial bidding between those groups who seek to uphold the decision, the ratio will be closer to even."

This tells me that, they still tipped the scale against the Wolves, but fairly so. However, the fact that the wolves still almost won, even if they lost, should say something about Clan wolf. They are not as weak as you make them sound. It'd be like, you going into a 12 vs 12 premade group, then having 3 mechs from every lance drop out, leaving it just 3 vs 12 when everything is done. If you killed 10 of the enemy team with your three mechs, wouldn't you be impressed? Even though you lost? Just because they lost, doesn't mean they were weak and only attack weak IS targets and failed in clan to clan fights.

Oh, and in the bidding process, there are spots where negotiations can happen. He may have talked his opponents into bidding lower, in whatever way he could. The fact that they still went at them 4 to 1 odds was not very honorable, even by clan standards after all the bidding is done.

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

(8) Lets look at the numbers then for Clan Wolf

Wave 1 - attacked 10 systems 2 were FC, they faced 3 mech regiment or more defenders, 2 of those were on the FC systems, 1 was on FRR. So on the 7 FRR systems they faced militia or small company's / batallion formations

Wave 2 - attacked 6 sytems, all FRR. faced no force more than 2 battallions in strength and only on 2 systems (so 4 were militia only)

Wave 3 - attacked 11 systems 3 FC. faced regimental + oppostion on 5 systems (including the capital Rasalhague)

Wave 4 - attacked 16 systems, 3 FC. faced regimental + opposition on 3 systems (I included the GKT factory regiment here as even though it was retired pilots and trainees, it was regiment strength)

So prior to the pause, Clan Wolf conquered 43 systems, of which 8 were FC (20% yes?) and faced significant oppostion (regiment+) on 11 systems, or 25%.

Tell me where these numbers (direct from canon source books) support a Clan Wolf that was tearing apart a strong Inner Sphere army. 75% of the planets were virtually undefended by significant forces. Many battles were against C grade mercenary units. There is simply no basis for an argument that Clan Wolf was a dominant military force BECAUSE they took more IS planets and took less losses. They were fighting (largely) the weakest of the armies the IS had AND had no fear of their flanks due to the support given them by other Clans.

If anyone wants to argue that Clan Wolf was a strong military, they need to come up with a better argument because canon is quite clear,

a) Clan Wolf LOST the major interclan battles from 3048 - 3058,
b Clan Wolf had the easiest Invasion corridor facing the weakest opponent and protected by JF and GB.

ergo, their military capability / acuman was not as great as other Clans.

Clan wolf, once more, did not choose their attack corridor. The other clans did as "punishment". Oh and just because they had Ghost Bear and Jade Falcons (unto which the Jade Falcon and Wolf hated each other) did not mean that they where protected. They could and did still fight between each other, just not as much as they did trying to push forwards.

A ) Clan wolf lost a fight, in 4 to 1 odds. But, they almost WON that fight, which is impressive for a loss. The fight was "stacked" against them. Also, the fact that they still motioned for the trial meant they thought they could win, against all of the other clans opposing them, should say another thing about them...

B ) They, once more, didn't choose their attack path. The other clans did for them. That is something that can not be blamed on them.

C ) If they were so "weak", why were they the only ones to get a full victory on Tukayyid, with Ghost Bear getting a marginal victory. (No other clans got a victory of any kind: "During the Battle of Tukayyid, Clan Wolf was one of only two Clans to prevail against the defending ComStar forces (the other victor being Clan Ghost Bear who were awarded a "marginal" victory). Nevertheless, the Wolves were the ones who helped convince the other clans to adhere to the terms when the Trial was lost, leading to the treaty that halted the invasion with a 15-year truce.")

I'd have to say, calling the Wolves as " their military capability / acuman was not as great as other Clans" is a fallacy. If they were so weak, why would they be given the "honor" of several annihilation/absorption trials, be elected Illkhan, be considered the head of the Warden Factions, AND be able to uphold the terms to a trial that the other clans were ready to just ignore... If they were weak, none of the other clans would have bothered to listen to them.



(I'm not saying you aren't in part correct, but you are coloring everything in "the Wolves are weak" appearance, when that is not the case.)

Edited by Tesunie, 09 March 2014 - 08:47 PM.

[Mordin Ashe]

This thread is winning so hard there isn't a word for it. Keep it up, it is very interesting to read this!

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 09 March 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

I think you are confused. Not once did I say "the Wardens". I said "Clan Wolf" (1). Clan Wolf, lead by Ulric (which he converted around at least half his clan into his ideology, or he probably wouldn't have been voted as ilkan(Kan? Leader) of his clan, not to mention probably would have started a lot of trials otherwise). Ulric didn't want to invade the Inner Sphere. (2) A lot of other clans (Wardens) didn't want to either. (3) Though that view changed from one clan to the next. The Wardens wanted to protect the Inner Sphere, even from themselves (4). But when the time was right. The Crusaders wanted to take over the Inner Sphere by force, and run it themselves. Though, in some parts, these are very similar view points (as with Steel Viper that you keep pointing out), they do have several key differences. One wants to conquer the Inner Sphere and subjugate it. The other wants to protect it, even if it means to conquer it.



Not all the clans did. (5) Some (like the Wolves), thought that if they could get the houses to work together and reform the Star League, then they could create the Golden Age all over again.



Which is more cannon (6) then, a source book I do not have, the the Twilight of the Clans novels I actually do own. Though, I don't doubt your sources either. I just don't have access to them is all.

So, you now accuse Clan Nova Cat of acting unclan (7) like... (And betraying the Clans as well.)



For the record, you tell the "full story", in a fairly skewed manner. Clan Wolf was ready to sit on the sidelines for the invasion, but was forced to join as "punishment and to be embarrassed to join and participate into the invasion they so argued against." They did not get to choose their corridor of occupation (8). The other clans chose that for them. Wolf decided that, if forced to join into the invasion, they were going to place more shame on the Crusader clans in the process. They, with better logistics and planing, out paced a lot of the other clans. They also had comstar support pacifying the populaces to help them out, as well as using skills and securing their supply lines.

They continued to place shame on the other clans in the invasion by their fast pace of advancement. Even on Tukayyid, they were the only one to actually accomplish all of their goals (9), with Ghost Bear getting one objective out of two (10).

Even then though, Ulric was actually doing everything he could to hinder the other clans, and improve his own clan's standing. He was actually doing everything in his power to make his clan the Ilclan, which is very clan like, and followed the orders of the high council as well. He gambled, and either way it went, he saw it as a win. Either the invasion would fail, (11) or Wolf would be best situated to take Terra if they won. http://www.sarna.net...i/Clan_Invasion

<snip> for space (12)



Anyway, the Clans don't call trial of absorptions without a very good cause. That absorption was an odd one, as it happened because of the scale of the trial of Refusal... It wasn't a normal case (13).




This tells me that, they still tipped <snip> for space (14)

Oh, and in the bidding process (15), there are spots where negotiations can happen. He may have talked his opponents into bidding lower, in whatever way he could. The fact that they still went at them 4 to 1 odds was not very honorable, even by clan standards after all the bidding is done.



Clan wolf, once more, did not choose their attack corridor. The other clans did as "punishment". Oh and just because they had Ghost Bear and Jade Falcons (unto which the Jade Falcon and Wolf hated each other) did not mean that they where protected. They could and did still fight between each other (16), just not as much as they did trying to push forwards.

A ) Clan wolf lost a fight, in 4 to 1 odds. But, they almost WON that fight, which is impressive for a loss. The fight was "stacked" against them (17). Also, the fact that they still motioned for the trial meant they thought they could win, against all of the other clans opposing them, should say another thing about them...


I'd have to say, calling the Wolves as " their military capability / acuman was not as great as other Clans" is a fallacy (18). If they were so weak, why would they be given the "honor" of several annihilation/absorption trials, be elected Illkhan, be considered the head of the Warden Factions, AND be able to uphold the terms to a trial that the other clans were ready to just ignore... If they were weak, none of the other clans would have bothered to listen to them.



(I'm not saying you aren't in part correct, but you are coloring everything in "the Wolves are weak" appearance, when that is not the case.)

So let me first start off that even the guys at Catalyst that run the BT universe have disavowed Sarna as a canon source. If we are going to talk about Canon, it cannot include Sarna.

(1) Fair enough.

(2) True

(3) False, all 16 other Clans voted to invade the Inner Sphere, that means ALL the Wardens too.

(4) False, this was never the Warden movement it was Ulrics vision. Had it been the Wardens goal then the two camps would have waging a civil war in Clan Space for 250 years. All Clans believed in Nicholas's words that they would return to the Inner Spehre and protect it / rule it. Never did Nicholas even hint that they woudl have to kill each other before they got there.

(5) yes they did, although I have said many times already that every Clan had slight nuances on how it would be achieved. These are Nicholas' words (from the Wolf rememberance as well)

There will be a time when our descendants return to reclaim what is our right. With honor swelling their hearts, they will crusade against the dark emotions that have dimmed the Inner Sphere for so long.

So key words are "we", ie ALL Clans, "return to reclaim" , the SLDF mantle as protectors of the Terran Hemagony, "Crusade" this word implies combat and is the cornerstone of some of the extreme 'conquer them all' interpretations "Dark Emotions" refers to Alexanders writings which basically paints the 5 Successor Lords as the holders of dark emotions, so it is translated by most Clans as the House Lords.

This is the actual guts of the Crusader vs Warden argument, the actual words. There is nothing there about interclan warfare, nothing about negotiating. The key difference of opinion between Warden and Crusader is the timing of the return. The Warden's believe that they should wait until humanity has a threat and leave the House Lords to screw it up, the Crusaders believe we go now and rebuild the Star legue so when a threat comes we are stronger than ever.

(6) They are both canon, but they are not in conflict so I don't see the problem.

(7) Absolutely not, and I refute the implication you make. You made the statement "Guess" and I informed you of the canon reason why, I also fully quoted it was not the only reason. Theo negotiated and was only aided by the visions. In all of these posts I have always tried to differentiate with specific language the canon sources and my personal opinions. This was a direct canon source quote.

(8) So what? Yes you are correct, but is your argument that they would have picked a harder task than the easiest path they were set? Tukayyid suggest otherwise as there Ulric quite openly wanted the easiest objectives and to land last in the battle. If you review my point, it is that there is no basis to say Clan Wolf is a superior military Clan on the basis of their performance in the IS invasion. They did fight the weakest army, they did have their flanks protected and hence enjoyed significant advantages. It's comparing apples to oranges. Clan Jade falcon fought 9 worlds in the first wave, 7 of them had regimental or greater defenders. ofc they took more casualities, they were fighting much harder opposition. They still won them all, ergo, same result against tougher opposition implies Falcons were better in a military sense. (Thats a very tiny sliver and not representative of my full opinion, contrast raised to refute your point)

(9) They were also the only Clan who didn't finish their battle against their opponents because Ulric called the campaign off before they could either be forced back or win decisivily. This is not evidence of anything other than they didn't finish what they started.

(10) Jade Falcons were also judged to have fought a draw, or do you only consider the Wardens worthy of any attention?

(11) What? You can't have it both ways. I have shown over and over that Ulric was fighting against the Clans seizing Terra. You agree with me here and then go on to say that somehow had he failed, Clan Wolf would have been the Il Clan by virtue of what? He picked a side, the IS and he betrayed his own Clan and the Grand Council to do so. He doesn't get to come back afterwards and say "oh hey, my bad. But were back now so lets play nice"

(12) OK? I am already down as saying the Crusaders were politicing and talking it up, whats your point? Politics plays a part in Clan society, Nicholas empowered the Grand Council as a majority motion entity so policiting is certainly accepted. What's your point?

(13) It's hardly an every day occurrence. Widowmaker was because they 'killed' Nicholas 'accidently'. Mongoose was because they over relied on politicing, Burrock was because they had been supporting the Bandit Caste, and Wolf was because they committed a massive betrayal. They're all unique.

(14) My point is (and remains) that Ulric gets no credit for what the end odds are and that regardless of those odds, they lost. The attackers forces are determined by guess who, the attacker. Ulric gets no say in it. You assume that "narrow loss" implies a strong casualty count. I have yet to see a canon source (Sarna not being canon) that confirms that but I'm willing to accept it on face value.

Let me give you another example. Is Kai Allard Liao an exceptional mech pilot because he killed 60 Jade Falcon pilots at the great gash by setting off hidden explosives that buried them all under rock? The fact is he won and is (rightly imo) celebrated for that. The fact is Clan Wolf lost, and their weakness should be acknowledged instead of hiding behind mechanics. I could argue that ANY mech jock could press the red button and bury the Falcon Guards under rock, it certainly doesn't make Kai great. But his later actions (Solaris etc proved he is absolutley worthy of the title). Clan Wolves later actions consisted of beating up the weakest IS army and loosing to Jade Falcon in the Refusal war, so I continue to maintain they are weaker than other Clans in a military sense.

(15) No, there is not. Once the defender announces his defending forces he is not permitted to change it and he has no input into the attackers bidding.

(16) Have you a source for this. My Source cover virtually every engagement during the Invasion and there is no mention of the 4 Clans attacking each other. The closest is the Bids between Ghost Bear and Wolf for a couple of FRR systems and the trials the reserve clans had to secure basis for wave 5.

(17) The fight wasn't stacked against them. Ulric made his request knowing it was 16 to 1, that was the vote. If anything he should be greteful the other clans bid each other down to 4 to 1 to give them a chance. In terms of culture, it is quite appropriate that the field could have been 16 to 1 and that what would you say, oh they lost because it was 16 - 1. Well guess what, they still lost and hence, were bound to the will of the Council by their defeat. That they defied the council afterwards is what got them Absorbed.

(18) You can make that claim, but you have no canon to support it. My point has never been that Clan Wolf was not capable, indeed in many of the posts I am in high praise of Vlad and his efforts to RETURN Clan Wolf to where it once was.

My claim is and remains that from 3048 - 3058, Clan Wolf was led by a traitor, twisted away from Nicholas's words by Ulric's personal agenda, tricked into fighting against their fellow Clans by a leader pursuing a personal agenda opposite to his own peoples will and was defeated time and again by fellow Clans yet still refused to accept the judgements decided in battle. The only claim the had to any success was beating up the weakest IS power in the Invasion corridor with their flanks protected.

My point is and remains that from 3048 - 3058, Clan Wolf was shadow of a real Clan and had it not been for Omni mechs would not even be worthy of the name Clan (and indeed, the Grand Council found exactly that in 3058 and approved their absorbtion which true to Clan culture, Clan Wolf failed to defend)

If you think I'm a Crusader guess again, I'm a big fan of Clan Ghost Bear but you don't see them activily sabotaging other Clans, you don't see them ignoring the will of the Grand Council to pursue a personal agenda. You don't see them rushing for Terra either. They are much truer to the Warden credos which is "stay strong until we are needed" and they do an admirable job.

[CyclonerM]

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

a) Clan Wolf LOST the major interclan battles from 3048 - 3058,

Please tell me which interclan battles have occurred between 3048 and 3056, excluding the Red Corsair incident.

I remember Clan Wolf won on several planets in the Refusal War, mauling many Falcon units, though they were mostly second-line units. Even the "weak" Warden Wolves led by Phelan Kell soundidly defeated the pursuing Falcon forces on Morges. To quote Sarna, the JF Clan earned a phyrric victory. Even if they have "won" the war, they have lost many battles. Sure, they were mostly meat grinders, but then, were the Falcons too scared to face the Wolves with their best units? Probably they feared to weaken themselves too much.

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 07 March 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

In any case Wolf still lost, which is the key point.

I will admit the Wolf lost the Trial of Refusal if you admit Jade Falcon lost in the Trial of Tukayyid.

Craig Steele, on 07 March 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

4. My point has nothing to do with 'smartest'. It is to highlight that in a culture where 'Might is Right', Clan Wolf lost repeatedly and

Then your point has nothing to do with this thread.

Craig Steele, on 07 March 2014 - 11:13 PM, said:

If you read the history of the Tukayyid battle you would see that Ulric was quite open to his abuse of his position to ensure Clan Wolfs success. As Il Khan, he instructed Natasha to (basically) loose bids so Clan Wolf would not only go last but would also have the softest targets. Ulric openly used the other clans to ensure Clan Wolf had a better chance. Remember, his position as Il Khan was to ensure the Clans won Terra, instead he was feeding the other Clans into a mincing machine so that Clan Wolf would not get hurt too badly.

We will never know what would have happened had Clan Wolf gone in first but we do know this from the source books. On day one of Clan Wolf's 2 days expedition Comstar had fought them to a stand still, mhm thats right, pg 51 Clan Wolf Source book reads "The Com Guards had achieved a great but costly victory...." At the end of day 2 Clan Wolf was still engaged and fighting "the final battle in the mountains.", which is related as ".....Even with this advantage, what little ground was taken was won at heavy cost, saKhan (<-fixed) Garth Radick was slain....." which tells us that Clan Wolf far from won the day convincingly. They were judged to have won their battle by virtue of not being forced off planet as most other Clans were but had they gone in first, that is something that may well have been in doubt. Had the battle been allowed to continue another day it may well have been a different outcome. But why did the fight not end definitively. Well because Ulric called it quits and declared the battle over, he conceded on behalf of all the Clans.

So right here at Tukayyid, the cornerstone of your view that Ulric and Clan Wolf were superior we see an Il Khan openly telling his Khan to lose bids so that Clan Wolf can get intel on the Comstar forces and so that Clan Wolf gets the easier targets. We see Clan Wolf doing marginally better than some Clans on their landing day but defeated none the less by Comstar's. On the second day of the battle when it was to be decided in a final battle they gained a little ground at a high cost before Ulric steps in and declares Comstar the victors, basically protecting his Wolf Warriors from further loss and any chance of victory at the same moment.

Wow you have one twisted outlook on this battle.

Natasha was not forced to to not bid, she just know what was coming.

It is not Ulric's fault the other Khans were arrogant and bid so low.

Clan Wolf won because they took both objectives (after facing double the numbers the other Clans have faced), not because they just did not leave. (And that was not on day two!)

The Wolfs landed on May 5. Day two, for them, was on May 7. The trial ended May 21.

Craig Steele, on 07 March 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

He betrayed the trust shown in him by his fellow Wolves and fellow Khans and hence, is a traitor.

How could he betray a trust that was never given to him?

Edited by Nathan K, 10 March 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[Craig Steele]

CyclonerM, on 10 March 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Please tell me which interclan battles have occurred between 3048 and 3056 (1), excluding the Red Corsair incident.

I remember Clan Wolf won on several planets in the Refusal War, mauling many Falcon units, though they were mostly second-line units. Even the "weak" Warden Wolves led by Phelan Kell soundidly defeated the pursuing Falcon forces on Morges. To quote Sarna, the JF Clan earned a phyrric victory (2). Even if they have "won" the war, they have lost many battles. Sure, they were mostly meat grinders, but then, were the Falcons too scared to face the Wolves with their best units? Probably they feared to weaken themselves too much.

(1)They lost the Refusal of the Invasion trial, tthey lost the Red Corsair (as you pointed out), they lost the Refusal War.

(2) Sarna is not not canon but even if you accept that, there is no basis it was a phyrric victory. Never before had a Clan been the target of attack by other Clans after a major trial where they represented the Grand Council and there was no reason in canon (bar Ulric's scaremongering) to beleive that would change with the Refusal War.

Nathan K, on 10 March 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

I will admit the Wolf lost the Trial of Refusal if you admit Jade Falcon lost in the Trial of Tukayyid (3).

Then your point has nothing to do (4) with this thread.

Wow you have one twisted outlook on this battle.

Natasha was not forced to to not bid (5), she just know what was comming.

It is not Ulric's fault the other Khans were arrogant and bidded so low (6).

Clan Wolf won because they took both objectives (after facing duable the numbers the other Clans have faced), not because they just did not leave. (And that was not on day two!)

The Wolfs landed on May 5. Day two, for them, was on May 7. The trial ended May 21 (7).

How could he betray a trust that was never given to him? (8)

(3) Canon very clearly states that Clan Jade Falcon was adjudged the same outcome as Clan Ghost Bear, which was NOT a defeat. I can only go by whats in canon as I have in every post and tell you whats written in black and white. Clan Wolf DID loose the refusal war (they were absorbed and became the Clan Jade Wolves) and Clan Jade Falcon did not lose at Tukayyid. I'm not going to start lying to you all now am I?

(4) Someone offered up Ulric as a genius and the savious of the Clans, I have shown irrefutably (for anyone without a bias) that is not true. How is it not related to the thread?

(5) Pg 47 Clan Wolf Source Book reads "....the Il Khan actually counselled Khan Natahsa Kerensky to curb her impatience and to purposefully allow other clans to take the better targets and times." It doesn't get more black and white than this. If you want to play semantics over the difference between ordered and counselled fine, lets play word games. But canon is absolutely clear that Ulric wanted and sought for the other Clans to take all the heat and Clan Wolf to have the easiest run. He abandoned his duty as the Il Khan to ensure all Clans were striving for victory to instead gave them up to the Comstar mincing machine to suit his personal agenda.

(6) It absolutely is. As Il Khan it was his duty to set appropriate cut downs for all Clans, he failed in this and hence betrayed the Clans. Really this stuff is Clan Culture 101, it's not new. The senior officer sets cut downs at bids to ensure his operational goals are not jeapordised. We can theory craft about the Clans going below cut downs if he had of, but had there been cut downs set the other Khans would have had the right to summon forces up to the minimum Ulric considered required without major shame. So here is another example were Ulric failed in his duty as Il Khan in ensuring all Clans were striving for the Grand Councils will and deliberatly sabotaged there efforts.

(7) The Wolf Clan source book only talks about one night, if you have another source that indicates firm dates I'd be happy to review it. But in either case what is clear in the source book is that the end of the battle was still not decided when Ulric called the campaign over. He prevented the Wolf warriors earning (or loosing) a decisive decision. If the battle had been allowed to continue and Comstar had counterattacked as they had against virtually ever other Clan then it is possible considering the Wolves were low on ammo, had taken heavy casualities and were bogged down that they too would have been forced back to their drop ships like other Clans. If so, they would not have been holding the 'objectives'. The only reason they were still there was because Ulric said , "oh dear, ok thats enough, no point now, we don't want to play anymore"

(8) Huh? The Wolves voted him as Khan to promote the Clan Wolf and Ulric turned it into a jobs for the boys culture and then sacrificed hundreds of Wolf warriors to fight a war against the Crusaders that no one had ever thought of, including Nicholas Kerensky himself. Betrayal to Clan there, just one of many but we can scroll up whenever.

Ulric was appointed Il Khan by the Grand Council and charged to prosecuting the successful conquest of Terra on behalf of all the Clans. He walked out of the room after accepting the role and said , nah na na nah na, I'm gunna screw these guys over. Betrayal of all the Clans there, home and Invading, Warden and Crusader.

Ulric deliberatly abandoned his sworn oaths as Khan and Il Khan, ergo, traitor.

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

So let me first start off that even the guys at Catalyst that run the BT universe have disavowed Sarna as a canon source. If we are going to talk about Canon, it cannot include Sarna.

(1) Fair enough.

(2) True

(3) False, all 16 other Clans voted to invade the Inner Sphere, that means ALL the Wardens too.

(4) False, this was never the Warden movement it was Ulrics vision. Had it been the Wardens goal then the two camps would have waging a civil war in Clan Space for 250 years. All Clans believed in Nicholas's words that they would return to the Inner Spehre and protect it / rule it. Never did Nicholas even hint that they woudl have to kill each other before they got there.

(5) yes they did, although I have said many times already that every Clan had slight nuances on how it would be achieved. These are Nicholas' words (from the Wolf rememberance as well)

There will be a time when our descendants return to reclaim what is our right. With honor swelling their hearts, they will crusade against the dark emotions that have dimmed the Inner Sphere for so long.

So key words are "we", ie ALL Clans, "return to reclaim" , the SLDF mantle as protectors of the Terran Hemagony, "Crusade" this word implies combat and is the cornerstone of some of the extreme 'conquer them all' interpretations "Dark Emotions" refers to Alexanders writings which basically paints the 5 Successor Lords as the holders of dark emotions, so it is translated by most Clans as the House Lords.

This is the actual guts of the Crusader vs Warden argument, the actual words. There is nothing there about interclan warfare, nothing about negotiating. The key difference of opinion between Warden and Crusader is the timing of the return. The Warden's believe that they should wait until humanity has a threat and leave the House Lords to screw it up, the Crusaders believe we go now and rebuild the Star legue so when a threat comes we are stronger than ever.

(6) They are both canon, but they are not in conflict so I don't see the problem.

(7) Absolutely not, and I refute the implication you make. You made the statement "Guess" and I informed you of the canon reason why, I also fully quoted it was not the only reason. Theo negotiated and was only aided by the visions. In all of these posts I have always tried to differentiate with specific language the canon sources and my personal opinions. This was a direct canon source quote.

(8) So what? Yes you are correct, but is your argument that they would have picked a harder task than the easiest path they were set? Tukayyid suggest otherwise as there Ulric quite openly wanted the easiest objectives and to land last in the battle. If you review my point, it is that there is no basis to say Clan Wolf is a superior military Clan on the basis of their performance in the IS invasion. They did fight the weakest army, they did have their flanks protected and hence enjoyed significant advantages. It's comparing apples to oranges. Clan Jade falcon fought 9 worlds in the first wave, 7 of them had regimental or greater defenders. ofc they took more casualities, they were fighting much harder opposition. They still won them all, ergo, same result against tougher opposition implies Falcons were better in a military sense. (Thats a very tiny sliver and not representative of my full opinion, contrast raised to refute your point)

(9) They were also the only Clan who didn't finish their battle against their opponents because Ulric called the campaign off before they could either be forced back or win decisivily. This is not evidence of anything other than they didn't finish what they started.

(10) Jade Falcons were also judged to have fought a draw, or do you only consider the Wardens worthy of any attention?

(11) What? You can't have it both ways. I have shown over and over that Ulric was fighting against the Clans seizing Terra. You agree with me here and then go on to say that somehow had he failed, Clan Wolf would have been the Il Clan by virtue of what? He picked a side, the IS and he betrayed his own Clan and the Grand Council to do so. He doesn't get to come back afterwards and say "oh hey, my bad. But were back now so lets play nice"

(12) OK? I am already down as saying the Crusaders were politicing and talking it up, whats your point? Politics plays a part in Clan society, Nicholas empowered the Grand Council as a majority motion entity so policiting is certainly accepted. What's your point?

(13) It's hardly an every day occurrence. Widowmaker was because they 'killed' Nicholas 'accidently'. Mongoose was because they over relied on politicing, Burrock was because they had been supporting the Bandit Caste, and Wolf was because they committed a massive betrayal. They're all unique.

(14) My point is (and remains) that Ulric gets no credit for what the end odds are and that regardless of those odds, they lost. The attackers forces are determined by guess who, the attacker. Ulric gets no say in it. You assume that "narrow loss" implies a strong casualty count. I have yet to see a canon source (Sarna not being canon) that confirms that but I'm willing to accept it on face value.

Let me give you another example. Is Kai Allard Liao an exceptional mech pilot because he killed 60 Jade Falcon pilots at the great gash by setting off hidden explosives that buried them all under rock? The fact is he won and is (rightly imo) celebrated for that. The fact is Clan Wolf lost, and their weakness should be acknowledged instead of hiding behind mechanics. I could argue that ANY mech jock could press the red button and bury the Falcon Guards under rock, it certainly doesn't make Kai great. But his later actions (Solaris etc proved he is absolutley worthy of the title). Clan Wolves later actions consisted of beating up the weakest IS army and loosing to Jade Falcon in the Refusal war, so I continue to maintain they are weaker than other Clans in a military sense.

(15) No, there is not. Once the defender announces his defending forces he is not permitted to change it and he has no input into the attackers bidding.

(16) Have you a source for this. My Source cover virtually every engagement during the Invasion and there is no mention of the 4 Clans attacking each other. The closest is the Bids between Ghost Bear and Wolf for a couple of FRR systems and the trials the reserve clans had to secure basis for wave 5.

(17) The fight wasn't stacked against them. Ulric made his request knowing it was 16 to 1, that was the vote. If anything he should be greteful the other clans bid each other down to 4 to 1 to give them a chance. In terms of culture, it is quite appropriate that the field could have been 16 to 1 and that what would you say, oh they lost because it was 16 - 1. Well guess what, they still lost and hence, were bound to the will of the Council by their defeat. That they defied the council afterwards is what got them Absorbed.

(18) You can make that claim, but you have no canon to support it. My point has never been that Clan Wolf was not capable, indeed in many of the posts I am in high praise of Vlad and his efforts to RETURN Clan Wolf to where it once was.

My claim is and remains that from 3048 - 3058, Clan Wolf was led by a traitor, twisted away from Nicholas's words by Ulric's personal agenda, tricked into fighting against their fellow Clans by a leader pursuing a personal agenda opposite to his own peoples will and was defeated time and again by fellow Clans yet still refused to accept the judgements decided in battle. The only claim the had to any success was beating up the weakest IS power in the Invasion corridor with their flanks protected.

My point is and remains that from 3048 - 3058, Clan Wolf was shadow of a real Clan and had it not been for Omni mechs would not even be worthy of the name Clan (and indeed, the Grand Council found exactly that in 3058 and approved their absorbtion which true to Clan culture, Clan Wolf failed to defend)

If you think I'm a Crusader guess again, I'm a big fan of Clan Ghost Bear but you don't see them activily sabotaging other Clans, you don't see them ignoring the will of the Grand Council to pursue a personal agenda. You don't see them rushing for Terra either. They are much truer to the Warden credos which is "stay strong until we are needed" and they do an admirable job.

I'm sorry, but can you actually quote that the creators of BT have disavowed Sarna as completely non-cannon? And in a way that I can actually read it for myself. Oh, and I'm not going to reference to source that I don't own, like the 183654 p. of teh Jade falcon source book that says "we lost, bo ho". I don't have access to that material. I'm also not going to go reading through the novels I own to prove my point either, as then it would take me months to formulate a single response back... Especially seen as Sarna has, so far as I can tell, been fairly accurate to what I've read. I also can not check up your sources, so as far as I can tell, you might be just making it all up. (I don't think you are for the record, but how can I know you aren't either?) I use what tools I have for references, and you are actually the first person to tell me that Sarna is not a cannon source...


3. The Wardens did not want to invade the Inner Sphere until Clan Smoke Jaguar manipulated events and information about the Bounding Light. That was the tipping point. Wolf saw through the deception, where as all the other clans were worried about an invasion themselves into their own back yards. So, on this fact, no. I am not wrong. They did not want to invade the Inner Sphere, but were basically manipulated into doing so. As it is, none of the Wardens, besides Wolf and later Ghost bear (as they changed their views), participated in the invasion itself.

4. I should have phrased that better. This is what I wanted to say , "The Wardens wanted to protect the Inner Sphere, even from the Inner Sphere (themselves)". Worded confusingly, and I didn't realized (with that long post) that it was worded incorrectly. It sounded like I was saying the Wardens wanted to protect the Inner Sphere from the clans, when I mean for it to be protecting the Inner Sphere from themselves... Makes more sense now?

5. (The way you are doing these quotes is making it exceedingly difficult to respond back to you... just saying... Anyway...)

There will be a time when our descendants return to reclaim what is our right. With honor swelling their hearts, they will crusade against the dark emotions that have dimmed the Inner Sphere for so long.

Doesn't say that they have to invade the Inner Sphere, just return. Their right is to create/join the Star League. They will "crusade" to restore order. That doesn't mean that they have been ordered by Nicolas to "destroy the Inner Sphere and remake it". The Wolf mentality for the invasion was still fitting. They didn't want to destroy the culture of the Inner Sphere, but police and protect it. They didn't feel then was the right time, or that the invasion was the right means...

You twist words like a Falcon... (That's suppose to be a joke.)

6. But, by your standings, I am wrong, even though it is clearly mentioned in Twilight of the Clans why the Nova Cats supported the Inner Sphere, or should I say the new Star League... There is a conflict between the novel lore, and the lore you are mentioning from some source book. Wonder what Sarna says about this... http://www.sarna.net...i/Clan_Nova_Cat

Something fun: "They were impressed with Clan Wolf's progress compared to the other Clans, and admired Khan Ulric Kerensky's tactical abilities, innovativeness, and personal integrity."

"When Tyra Miraborg's fighter crashed into the Dire Wolf, killing ilKhan Showers, the Nova Cat Khans voted to return to Strana Mechty to choose a new ilKhan. Sickened by the other invading Clans' attempt to blame Ulric Kerensky for ilKhan Showers' death, and further vowing to oppose any policy set by the Smoke Jaguars, the Nova Cats voted a resounding "no" against this measure. On the other hand, a measure to vote Ulric Kerensky into the position of ilKhan was supported by the Nova Cats. This was due to their respect for Kerensky rather than the other Crusaders' attempts to hobble Clan Wolf's leadership."

(On the concept of Diplomecy being a "cowards" and "not honorable" way of "combat"...)
"The initial steps taken by Clan Nova Cat were ones of pacification. As part of the process of sharing their invasion corridor, Clan Smoke Jaguar ceded the worlds of Bjarred, Chupadero, Jeanette, Sawyer, and Tarnby to the Nova Cats. Additionally, a narrowly won Trial of Possession won them the world of Courchevel. While the Nova Cats had planned a quick sweep through the planets to enforce their control, years of Smoke Jaguar mismanagement led to worlds filled with discontent rebels with plenty of anti-Clan experience. Rather then repeat the Smoke Jaguar's mistakes, Nova Cat spent several weeks rounding up goverment leaders and negotiating a more amicable relationship. For the most part, the civilians of these captured worlds were content with Nova Cat control, compared to the more brutal hands of Clan Smoke Jaguar."

"In 3058, Inner Sphere leaders cooperated to form what would become known as the Second Star League. While the other Clans saw this new Star League as a sham, the Nova Cats saw it as fulfilment of destiny."

"In 3060, with the goal of removing the Smoke Jaguars complete, the Star League would issue a Trial of Refusal against the entire Clan invasion. Now called the Great Refusal, it pitted the best of the Inner Sphere forces against the might of the Crusader Clans. To the surprise of everybody, the Clan Nova Cat Khans fought directly on the side of the Inner Sphere rather the sit on the sidelines with the other Warden Clans. Clan Nova Cat forces, lead by their two Khans, defeated Clan Ice Hellion to secure another victory for the Inner Sphere, at the cost of the lives of Khan Severen Leroux and saKhan Lucian Carns. While the Inner Sphere won the Great Refusal, this did not shield the Nova Cats from retribution."

Seems to me (and what I read in the novels) that Sarna agrees. Nova Cat basically joined the New Star League, seeing it as what the clans (their vision of it) was suppose to do...

7. But but... Clan Nova Cat fought beside the Inner Sphere to protect the Inner Sphere. That MUST make them trators and unclan like! That is what you've been saying about the "weak" Wolves, right?

8. They bid higher than the other clans, which placed them at a disadvantage to start with. They had to drop last, and all surviving Comstar fources could attack them, instead of just a piece of them (like most of the other clans). This was because the Clans agreed to let the Comguard move surviving forces from one area to another after a clan left. This meant that Wolf started outnumbered, seems to be a common thing with them.

Also "the ilKhan's offers of advice and warning would henceforth be ignored by all Clans save his own." Looks like the Wolves tried to warn the other clans, only to be ignored again...

http://www.sarna.net...tle_of_Tukayyid
"As Clan Jade Falcon succeeding in briefly capturing Olalla, and inflicted significantly higher losses on the Com Guards than they suffered in turn, the ilKhan and the Precentor Martial agreed that they had earned a draw." Not a marginal victory, unlike the Ghost Bears. So the Falcons did lose.

"While poor deployment by Com Guard forces allowed the Ghost Bears to earn a marginal victory and the savagery of the Jade Falcons allowed them to extract a draw, Clan Wolf comprehensively defeated ComStar at every turn, even when facing four full Armies."

10. There is a difference between a draw, and a win. Ghost Bear and Wolf was the only clans to actually win their matches. Falcon only got a draw. Or is a loss only a loss when it's Clan Wolf fighting four times it's number in a Trial of Refusal?

11. Had the Trial at Tukayyid failed, Clan Wolf was already set up and ready to take down Tarra. If I recall correctly, they were closest to the objective. He had it set up so either the war would stop at Tukayyid, or the Wolves would become Illclan through combat. Either way that the Trial went, the Wolves were set up to take advantage of it.

12. Just saying that manipulation of facts was preformed on both sides to encourage their ideals. Wolves manipulated the other clans into being less effective (while letting his own clan advance farther, which is acceptable within clan society last I recalled). Meanwhile the Crusaders made up facts and did some scare mongering of their own to get the dead lock of the invasion vote to fall into their favor. This will depend upon who you ask and which side they stand one on who is bad, good and who was clan or unclan like...

13. Wolf was because they bid such a large force in the Trial of Refusal (their whole clan). After a while, the Refusal turned into an Absorption, as it was one clan against another. Either that, or it would lead to an Annihilation. Clan Jade Falcon wanted to strengthen themselves from this, so they went to absorb Wolf, to help make up for their losses. Only to have Wolf come back as Jade Wolf, and then back into Wolf again anyway...

14. "The fact is Clan Wolf lost, and their weakness should be acknowledged instead of hiding behind mechanics." And most clans would have claimed that a dishonorable tactic lead to the lose, and it wasn't a fair mech on mech fight... Thus, the clans would not have seen that as weakness. It would be seen as someone who used a cowards weapon to win, and there was no honor in it to be gained. Where as, in the Inner Sphere, it was seen as a victory, and was celebrated as much. Difference of society and culture.

15. He didn't change it. He probably talked to the attackers (which is permitted) and either intimidated them, or tried to convince them that more honor would be had by bidding lower (which would be true). That is part of the bidding process. He may not be able to determine anything other than what he brings in, but he can try to convince or persuade the other person's bidding.

16. Oh, I'm sure there was some fighting between the clans. Just not much. Still some Trials for blood names. Some mech/supply trials... etc. They just may not have fought for planetary control. However, looking at the Nova Cat page, the Nova Cats left an entire Galaxy in their invasion bid to just deal and attack Smoke Jaguar (attack and protect themselves). This tells me that, most likely, the other clans did something fairly similar. Probably not with front line units though...

17. You seem mistaken again (in part). Just because they lost, does not mean that they are weak. They fought 4 to 1 odds, and narrowly lost. That means they almost won. That means that, yes they lost, but they are not weak. They killed more of the enemy than the enemy did of them. That should still say something. And the got absorbed because of the scale of the Trial of Refusal they started against the charges (and conviction) against Ulric. They bid their entire clan. If they hadn't bid that high, they probably wouldn't have been absorbed. However, then the truce would have been broken and the invasion would have continued (what Jade Falcon wished).

18. You seem to like Vlad, and the Crusader Wolves. However, the Wolf Clan was powerful before Vlad. From my understanding, pre and invasion Wolf standings was very high. They were considered one of the stronger clans, if not one of the strongest clans. I'd probably call them one of the top 4 clans for most of their history. However, there is no source I know of (or can find) that just says each clan's standings amongst the other clans. Calling them weak I still think would be a mistake, even under Ulric's command. Actually, with exception to the end, the wolves benefited greatly from Ulric.

I'd have to say, I'm from none of the clans. I'm a Davion supporter. But Clan Wolf, Nova Cat and Ghost Bear have a lot of my respect. (I like Jade Falcon for their emblem though... )

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

(3) Canon very clearly states that Clan Jade Falcon was adjudged the same outcome as Clan Ghost Bear, which was NOT a defeat. I can only go by whats in canon as I have in every post and tell you whats written in black and white. Clan Wolf DID loose the refusal war (they were absorbed and became the Clan Jade Wolves) and Clan Jade Falcon did not lose at Tukayyid. I'm not going to start lying to you all now am I?

(4) Someone offered up Ulric as a genius and the savious of the Clans, I have shown irrefutably (for anyone without a bias) that is not true. How is it not related to the thread?

(6) It absolutely is. As Il Khan it was his duty to set appropriate cut downs for all Clans, he failed in this and hence betrayed the Clans. Really this stuff is Clan Culture 101, it's not new. The senior officer sets cut downs at bids to ensure his operational goals are not jeapordised. We can theory craft about the Clans going below cut downs if he had of, but had there been cut downs set the other Khans would have had the right to summon forces up to the minimum Ulric considered required without major shame. So here is another example were Ulric failed in his duty as Il Khan in ensuring all Clans were striving for the Grand Councils will and deliberatly sabotaged there efforts.

(7) The Wolf Clan source book only talks about one night, if you have another source that indicates firm dates I'd be happy to review it. But in either case what is clear in the source book is that the end of the battle was still not decided when Ulric called the campaign over. He prevented the Wolf warriors earning (or loosing) a decisive decision. If the battle had been allowed to continue and Comstar had counterattacked as they had against virtually ever other Clan then it is possible considering the Wolves were low on ammo, had taken heavy casualities and were bogged down that they too would have been forced back to their drop ships like other Clans. If so, they would not have been holding the 'objectives'. The only reason they were still there was because Ulric said , "oh dear, ok thats enough, no point now, we don't want to play anymore"

3. No. They were not. Cannon says they were granted a draw, because of the amount of damage they had done. Ghost Bear was granted a marginal victory because they took and held one target out of two. Wolf was granted a victory (which meant nothing to the trial anymore, as no one other than Ghost Bear won anyway), weather the campaign was cut short or not. Jade Falcon's did not do as well, or even the same, as Ghost Bear. They were not awarded a defeat, but instead a Draw. A Draw is still not a Victory.

4. He was a tactical and political genius. However, in the end, it wasn't enough.

6. He wouldn't be the first Illkhan to use the power of Illkhan to his and his clan's advantage. Why, Nicolas Kerensky himself used the power to farther his own agenda, and wiped out a whole clan falsely in the process to better secure his power base. He lied and manipulated the other clans into doing what he wanted, and then solidified his power in the process. Only difference is, Ulric got caught, Nicolas did not.

7. Did it matter? In the end? Even if Wolf had lost, or ended up having a partial victory like Ghost Bear, it would not have mattered to the Trial. Nor would it have mattered to the other clans. I'd also like to say they had a lot of energy weapons, so they weren't "low" on ammo. They (from my understanding) didn't have that many casualties, and in the end had the fewest of all the clans. They were in entrenched positions on the objectives, and could start to use the defenders own bulwarks against them. I don't think it would have mattered much, but even if it did continue, I think at worst the Wolves would have gotten the same as the Ghost Bears, maybe being driven out of one city, but would strongly hold the second one. That's at worst.


Out of all the clans, Wolf planed on a long engagement with Comstar. They set themselves up to go for a long time, including more energy variants. Ammo was less of an issue for them, unlike many of the other clans, who didn't bring enough ammo, and not enough energy weapons either...

[Uncle Totty]

Nathan K, on 06 March 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

1. It was a Trial of Refusal to the Invasion, not a Trial of Grievance.

2. In this trial, the Wolfs killed more warriors than they have lost. If they were Jade Falcon, you would be calling it a tie. (I know they would.)

Craig Steele, on 06 March 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

1. Yes, you are correct, my apologies it most certainly was a Trial of Refusal. IDK why I said Greivance.

2. What's your source for this claim that Wolf Clan killed more warriors than they lost. All my sources say "narrow defeat". It's a mute point because they still lost and hence under the "might is right" credos of the Clans, Wolf failed to carry their view. But I would still be interested to know.

Nathan K, on 07 March 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

2. "Clan Wolf was the only dissenter and immediately called a Trial of Refusal. Although the vote was astonishingly one sided at sixteen to one, pre-battle bidding reduced the odds against the Wolves to a 'mere' four to one. The Wardens fought like fanatics, taking many more Crusaders down than they lost, but in the end were unable to beat the odds; the way was now open for the invasion of the Inner Sphere." Sarna.net, Refusal War. *passes the salt*

"Wolf Khan Ulric Kerensky, an ardent Warden, protested mightily against the upcoming invasion. He was dismayed somewhat when even the Wolf's closest allies went along with the plan. He declared a Trial of Refusal and skillfully negotiated the odds down to four to one. The Wolf forces proved again their formidable prowess, particularly the Third Battle Cluster, but victory was snatched from their grasp by virtue of sheer numbers." WarrhawkPPC, Clan Wolf history (She is mostly Falcon so... *takes salt back*)

Craig Steele, on 07 March 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

2. So firstly, those are not canon sources. But most of it is quoted from canon sources. Interesting that you choose those two examples though, one says that the attackers bid the odds down to 4 - 1 which would be correct in Clan culture, the other says Ulric skillfuly negotiated the odds down and paints Ulric as a master negotiator. This is why relying on non canon source can paint different pictures than the BT universe and why people get the wrong idea on some subjects.

The process would have been Wolf Clan states what forces they will use to defend themselves.
Each Clan would then match Wolf Clans defending force creating 16 - 1 odds.
The attackers would then 'bid down' with the lowest bidder earning the right to fight.
(In some cases, Clans actually ally on the attacking side by consent)
Game on.

As you can see, Ulric doesn't get to negotiate the attackers force. He has already declared his hand.

In any case Wolf still lost, which is the key point.

Nathan K, on 10 March 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

I will admit the Wolf lost the Trial of Refusal if you admit Jade Falcon lost in the Trial of Tukayyid.

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

(3) Canon very clearly states that Clan Jade Falcon was adjudged the same outcome as Clan Ghost Bear, which was NOT a defeat. I can only go by whats in canon as I have in every post and tell you whats written in black and white. Clan Wolf DID loose the refusal war (they were absorbed and became the Clan Jade Wolves) and Clan Jade Falcon did not lose at Tukayyid. I'm not going to start lying to you all now am I?

1. As you can see (well, maybe you can not, but any way...) I was clearly talking about the Trial of Refusal to Invade. Not the War of Refusal.

2. What "canon" are you reading from? The Ghost Bears, do to luck, took and held one target city but could not take the other. The ComGards held one target city, but could not hold or retake the other.

On the other hand, Jade Falcon took a target, then lost it, then ran for their ******* lives. Then claimed to of scored a "tie" just because they killed more warriors than they lost.

I find it funny how when it comes to the Warden Wolfs you bring out everything on anything wrong with them. But when it comes to the Crusader Falcons, the details are so shallow it is really no better than not bringing them up at all.

Edited by Nathan K, 10 March 2014 - 11:50 AM.