258 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

This is how I think it should be done: http://mwomercs.com/...13#entry3113813

Edited by Cimarb, 10 March 2014 - 01:15 PM.

[VXJaeger]

No it's not.

[Abivard]

Trauglodyte, on 10 March 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

I haven't read through this because, and this is just a funny educated guess, it rehashes the same thing that has been mentioned in every thread up to this point. The point still stands that convergence is the problem. But, it seems like a lot of people don't know the specifics so I'll rehash them:

• We're stuck with instant convergene because it was either keep convergence or fix HSR (PGI chose the latter)
  
• Weapons are, for the most part, balanced but instant convergence just increases damage potential of FLD
  
• Ghost Heat wasn't meant to limit convergence impact but to limit heat based convergence impact and alphas
  
• Convergence CAN be fixed without the traditional FPS cone of fire
  
• PPCs aren't broken and are, by point of design, heat limited (see Ghost Heat)
  
• ACs aren't really broken but are being abused due to being able to put them in any ballistic slot

The easy ways to fix this:

• Add in heat/speed/damage (% remaining from your mech's life) range finder/convergence spread (see JJ nerf)
  
• Expanding on step 1, bring in efficiency reducing heat penalties (they were in TT, bring 'em back)
  
• Add in ballistic size limiter (see missile tube count) or different AC characteristics based on manufacturers
  
• Add in some form of recoil on non-Gauss ballistics

In four semi-easy steps, you've made the game less "omg alpha to the same spot" and forced some of that thinking that was trying to be sold to us in this futuristic battlemech thinking man's shooter.

It is a good thing you did not read my post before presenting your counters to it, now you can pretend your remarks make sense. Even though not a single one of your comments had anything to do with my post.

You probably will also not read my response to you.

One person take's a large laser, the other take an ERPPC. just one weapon each, on same mech. ERLL is 9 damage but much less heat than the erppc's 10 damage and high heat, the ranges are really fairly close, the pilots are of average and equal skill.

OK, betting window is open, place your bet, who will win?

Of Course the ERPPC will win, it does Direct Damage. Any map , any situation, it wins! add Jump Jets on the mechs and can you imagine what the Odds in Favor of the DD would skyrocket to?

In closing, It seems that not a single reply on this thread can find any real reason why lowering AC and er/PPC DD damage per shot would not help balance DD with all other weapons types without unduly affecting anything else.

Convergence is moot in this!

[wanderer]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 March 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

I like where you came at this from.
If they can give us perks to converge FASTER, they can be capable of making Nerfs to make it work slower as well. Its not a one way street.

You realize Pinpoint actually does nothing whatsoever and is in effect a 3000xp placeholder skill, right?

[FactorlanP]

wanderer, on 10 March 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

You realize Pinpoint actually does nothing whatsoever and is in effect a 3000xp placeholder skill, right?

Which is really sad, in and of itself.

I can't believe that anyone who has been around for more than a few months doesn't already know that the Pinpoint skill does absolutely nothing.

[wanderer]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 March 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

That play style is perfectly balanced by the fast and furious Dervish fighters. You give up durability for speed and blurring flurries of attacks. Death by paper cut takes time. Death by 12 Lbs Sledge... over before you know it! As long as there are folks like me that play style needs as much love as any other.

Here's the thing. Right now, the AC isn't just a 12 pound sledge, it's this:



That is, it's "penetration" means it's not paper cut vs. sledgehammer, it's ridonkulus anime blunt force trauma. The easier it is to apply full damage to a single point, the more efficient, if not overefficient a weapon system becomes. Three large lasers converge perfectly for even more theoretical damage than an AC/20 (and for more tonnage to boot!) - but because beams scatter damage, the -27- damage per shot is less lethal than the 20 from the AC simply because half of it generally bleeds off into other locations or misses entirely- and the faster the target, the more inefficient the lasers become. Ditto LB-X shotgunning or missile spreads (literally).- which don't even get the benefit of more than rough locational targeting at best. That is, the effective DPS thanks to spread is actually considerably lower- effective DPS is raw DPS mitigated by scatter.

AC's and PPC's, with the lowest possible scatter on a hit have the highest effective DPS, above and beyond what their numbers would nominally indicate- because everyone else's are lower than raw DPS might imply. And if it's a 'Mech that can't react fast enough to shield or twist a location out of the way of a 1300-1500 velocity shot (read: you can't), that means effective DPS climbs even higher, as it can't be effectively reduced by the same shielding/deflection tactics all other weapons get.

The best part of it is, even nominal amounts of duration vs. FLD mitigate this- consider that even a small pulse laser can have damage spread, and it's a .5 duration shot. Even a .4- that is, 4 .1 second "tics" of a 4-round burst or a PPC "stream" ala a Ghostbusters particle pack- would be enough to somewhat mitigate the total FLD punch of these weapons. Putting them in the duration range of pulse weapons combined with slower-than-hitscan delivery would be all it takes. At that point, you ARE a sledge hammer, instead of something that should have a 2-minute power-up sequence followed by Voltronesque explody 'Mech as the target stackpoles it's reactor while Go Dakka Lightning Team strikes a victory pose.

[MustrumRidcully]

Khobai, on 10 March 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

The TT equivalent to MWO would be triple the rate of fire, double armor, having automatically hitting weapons instead of to-hit rolls, and allowing mechs aim at whatever locations they want. That would result in much shorter TT games... a 10 round game would only be 3-4 rounds.

I wonder if a much more hopeful approach to creating a good stompy robot game would be to go to, say Catalyst Lab Games and propose a stompy robot table top game with player-selected hit locations and all that. We call it "War Walkers" or some such and then Catalyst Lab Games can sell the computer license to someone competent?

I say it's more hopeful because the problems and possible solutions to convergence were already discussed during Closed Beta, and the devs keep not doing anythnig about it, other than inventing crazy mechanics like ghost heat.

---

But if we want to add something to the discussion in pinpoint precision - an interesting aspect is that generally, even if you are not that a great shot, pinpoint damage can be benefitial. 10 damage to the left torso and 10 damage to the center torso are simply worse than 20 damage to the left torso or 20 damage to the center torso are. The focused damage is still more likely to lead to lose of internal items.
If a comrade in arms now sees your target, he knows to go for the weakened spot. Taking out a limb or torso component is still better than not taking out anything.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 10 March 2014 - 11:39 PM.

[VXJaeger]

So basically you pinpoint-nerfers want matches to last 30min-1hour instead of max 15min? Do you really think that it would resolve the fact that you suck?

Edited by VXJaeger, 11 March 2014 - 12:06 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

VXJaeger, on 11 March 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

So basically you pinpoint-nerfers want matches to last 30min-1hour instead of max 15min? Do you really think that it would resolve the fact that you suck?

Do you really think a computer game mechanic makes you an awesome marksman? I still have yet to be shown a link where a Naval broadside hits a single car with all the guns fired all at once. Show me a Naval Alpha Strike converging like this game does. I will quit MW:O.

[MustrumRidcully]

VXJaeger, on 11 March 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

So basically you pinpoint-nerfers want matches to last 30min-1hour instead of max 15min? Do you really think that it would resolve the fact that you suck?

That sounds to me like a strawman or someone referring to a specific suggestion I haven't seen.

It currently doesn't require 15-30 minutes for a group of laser boats to kill another group of laser boats. We don't want a horrendous inaccuracy, just enough that PPCs and Ballistics don't have an undue advantage over lasers (or SRMs, or LRMs).

[Sephlock]

VXJaeger, on 11 March 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

So basically you pinpoint-nerfers want matches to last 30min-1hour instead of max 15min? Do you really think that it would resolve the fact that you suck?

Is it really so much to ask that not every single mid-to-high level game go like this?

[Khobai]

Quote

So basically you pinpoint-nerfers want matches to last 30min-1hour instead of max 15min?

Average match time is about 8-10minutes.

If you decreased pinpoint damage by 30%. At most matches would be 30% longer. So 9-13 minutes.

[wanderer]

Quote

So basically you pinpoint-nerfers want matches to last 30min-1hour instead of max 15min? Do you really think that it would resolve the fact that you suck?

>implying that anyone who doesn't use FLD weapons sucks

Please, troll more. I'm watching dakkafests end in under 6 at this point, and matches without piles of dakka end in under 10. The difference generally is that half the dakkafests are three minutes of obliterating the non-ballistic types with the AC/PPC boats, and then the rest of the time is spent hunting down the remnants/sole light that's outrunning them. In no way would matches regularly stretch to 15 minutes or more.

And worse, you're feeding the very argument you loathe. If you think weapons that deal FLD are reducing TTK by that much vs. weapons with inherent damage spreading mechanics, just how frickin' effective are they vs. everything else?

[Sephlock]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

Average match time is about 8-10minutes.

If you decreased pinpoint damage by 30%. At most matches would be 30% longer. So 9-13 minutes.

You have to take into account that if more people were using lasers and such, they'd be exposed to enemy fire for longer (and would have to hold steady rather than torso twisting while exposed).

[Khobai]

Quote

You have to take into account that if more people were using lasers and such, they'd be exposed to enemy fire for longer (and would have to hold steady rather than torso twisting while exposed).

well i dont want to remove pinpoint weapons from the game just balance them with spread weapons.

and the only way pinpoint vs spread is balanced is if pinpoint does less damage than spread. a large pulse laser should do considerably more damage than a ppc for example because the ppc is pinpoint and the large pulse laser is spread.

but yeah youre right more lasers means more exposure, but I figure the absolute worst case scenario of nerfing pinpoint weapons is that matches will last about 3-4 minutes longer. hardly the half hour long matches some people are claiming.

Edited by Khobai, 11 March 2014 - 05:52 AM.

[Stijnovic]

wolf74, on 08 March 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Manual Controlled Convergence

Yes I want convergence:

• Weapons in left and right arm should be (manually?) converging to target range (by mousewheel?).
  (also weapons in left and right arm should have separate target crosshairs)
  
• Weapons in torso should have fixed convergence (set in mechlab).

Please stop trying to (re-)balance damage and heat, give us interesting mechanisms. (but not stupid ones like ghost heat) For example:

• Amount of recoil could be a mechanism to induce balance. (especially when it is weapon AND mech-weight dependent)
  
• What about power requirements for energy weapons (and Gauss)? Perhaps that fusion engine cannot deliver enough power to fire 2 Gauss and 2 PPC's. (or maybe only the 350+ engines can)

[Amsro]

East Indy, on 08 March 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Remember, I'm not saying an extension of heat scale is the best, or even great. But it's expedient.

The "extension" of the heat scale, aka Ghost Heat has to be one of the WORST ideas, Ghost Heat has given us this shite balanced game of PPCs + Ballistic(s) of choice.

First thing PGI must do is go back and unravel the rats nest of fixes that have broken the game.

Anything else they try will only break it further.

Edit; This whole concept of nerf it, isn't great, instead buff what is lacking. The reason PPC + B is great is because everything else to compete has been nerfed into oblivion;

SRM's 2.0 (can we get 2.5 already)
Medium Laser 4 heat (instead of 3)
LB10X scatter shot (can it shoot AC/10 ammo already)

and then all the collection of Ghost Heat,

3+ (ER) Large (Pulse) Laser
3+ Chainfire AC/2
3+ Missiles (LRM, SRM, Streak)
3+ (ER)PPC

Edited by Amsro, 11 March 2014 - 06:31 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghost heat has only affected one of my designs and that's only cause some players are afraid to face the big bad wolf.

[Odins Fist]

Nerf this, screw up that, Moses hit me with a wiffle ball bat.. weaky, weaky, weaky, weaky, weaky, weaky...
FLAVOR FLAV...!!! Yeah BOIY..!!

All you need to know about MWO, "2 years later things still aren't finished".

Edited by Odins Fist, 11 March 2014 - 06:27 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 March 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

Ghost heat has only affected one of my designs and that's only cause some players are afraid to face the big bad wolf.

You mean the broken mechanics of 40 plus pinpoint FLD alphas, which GH didn't even fix. Just made fewer options available.