114 replies to this topic

[RadioKies]

Sandpit, on 23 March 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Just because a weapon has its speed increased doesn't mean AMs not increasing the exact same % amount is a "nerf" lol


Ahhhhhhhhhh
so let's see

You mean they have counters as well? You mean there's no singular weapon or tactic that works now? You mean you have to use teamwork and combine different counters to close so that LRMs do NO DAMAGE UNDER 180 METERS?

Thanks for proving yet again that the only ones who are unwilling to adapt are metahumping poptarters.

If I may... I suggest you read my post again. Because nothing you said apply's to my post.
Verry good debater you are, i.e. not going into what slow mechs should do (don't say stop using assaults). From hence forth I shall call you master-debater, I'll mail support@mwomercs.com and ask if they'll give you an insignia that goes with that title.

FYI: I play mostly heavy's and Lights. Nowhere have I said or even suggested that I poptart (which I don't), so yeah. Good job there.

[Mazzyplz]

Sandpit, on 23 March 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

Yup, just what I said


So all of the players posting otherwise and explaining how to avoid that kind of stalemate are wrong?


Never mind losing lock loses hits
ECM counters the magic R button
AMS shoots them down
Standing behind tall cover negates them
Faster mechs outrun them
If your teammate LoS, you lose lock

Yea they're some sort of magic auto aim weapon lol

the fact that there are counters to it doesn't mean there will be teams with NO ECM. what did this fact slip your mind?

so now we all need to drive atlas and raven?

ams doesn't cut it, i'm running no ams because it's kinda the same thing, the difference between having it and not having it is minor.

and yea, faster mechs do not outrun them, the new speed is over 500kmph. maybe you made a mistake there with the imperial system - make sure you use metric

[Heydiddly]

Sandpit, on 23 March 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Just because a weapon has its speed increased doesn't mean AMs not increasing the exact same % amount is a "nerf" lol

Well, yes, it quantifiably does... in this case a pretty substantial one. There are plenty of reasons to defend this LRM buff, no need to resort to denying obvious facts.

Edited by Heydiddly, 23 March 2014 - 01:34 PM.

[Sandpit]

Mazzyplz, on 23 March 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

the fact that there are counters to it doesn't mean there will be teams with NO ECM. what did this fact slip your mind?

so now we all need to drive atlas and raven?

ams doesn't cut it, i'm running no ams because it's kinda the same thing, the difference between having it and not having it is minor.

and yea, faster mechs do not outrun them, the new speed is over 500kmph. maybe you made a mistake there with the imperial system - make sure you use metric

lol because "OP" implies by it's very definition that it can't be countered. It's over powered and can't be countered, it can't have weapons and systems that effectively render it useless, it can't be out performed by other weapons. That's why
They can easily outrun LRMs at long range. It's not hard to do in a 150ish light mech (or medium for that matter). It's VERY easy to move those mechs fast enough to get behind cover, out of range, into a friendly's ECM range, etc.
Unless they were just standing still when they got the LRMs fired at them...

Heydiddly, on 23 March 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

Well, yes, it quantifiably does... in this case a pretty substantial one. There are plenty of reasons to defend this LRM buff, no need to resort to denying obvious facts.

No, no it doesn't
Speeding up LRMs does NOT equate to AMS being "nerfed" by increasing it's range to 120 meters. Now whether you feel it's a "good" enough buff is subjective, but that doesn't make it a "nerf"

[ICEFANG13]

stjobe, on 23 March 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

10 out of 12 'mechs have lasers or PPCs.
10 out of 12 'mechs have some sort of AC.

Why shouldn't 10 out of 12 'mechs have LRMs?

On average 12 of 12 mechs have weapons, really need to nerf weapons so we can have balance.

[FupDup]

ICEFANG13, on 23 March 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

On average 12 of 12 mechs have weapons, really need to nerf weapons so we can have balance.

Engines, heatsinks, armor, and internal structure are also all mounted on every possible mech. And cockpits, too. And paint. Clearly we must remove all these.

[ICEFANG13]

Dat OP paint. I uninstalled it on my computer too for that reason.

[Charons Little Helper]

RadioKies, on 23 March 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

I've been playing since closed beta and this is the worst OP gamebreaking patch I've seen thusfar.

Wait...WHAT?!?

I started playing during the last REAL Lurmaggedden. This is NOTHING in comparison to that. So basically... I don't believe you. (at that time I actually refused to play with LRMs - and where my love of medium brawlers that can close the distance to within 180m started)

[Sandpit]

RadioKies, on 23 March 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

I've been playing since closed beta and this is the worst OP gamebreaking patch I've seen thusfar..

don't normally say this but...

you sir, are lying. You either have missed some of the true OP balance changes which means you didn't play all the way through CB, or you're flat out lying that the ACTUAL lurmageddon we had that lasted a day wasn't worse

[Igorius]

Charons Little Helper, on 23 March 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

Wait...WHAT?!?

I started playing during the last REAL Lurmaggedden. This is NOTHING in comparison to that. So basically... I don't believe you. (at that time I actually refused to play with LRMs - and where my love of medium brawlers that can close the distance to within 180m started)

Sandpit, on 23 March 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

don't normally say this but...

you sir, are lying. You either have missed some of the true OP balance changes which means you didn't play all the way through CB, or you're flat out lying that the ACTUAL lurmageddon we had that lasted a day wasn't worse

Look, I don't like the idea of "dog piling" an argument, but these guys are right. I HAVE been playing since the beginning, and I've seen such Lurmpocalypses that would boggle the mind. Missiles that went straight up, then dropped straight down onto your cockpit like tears from an angry god. LRMs so fast that you didn't know what ripped you apart until you were already dead. Founders Catapults as far as the eye could see, raining down hellfire upon us poor plebs in our Atlases and Hunchbacks. Dragons desperate to knock over a missile boat so that their teammates might kill it before it brought forth the pain. Tag lasers flashing on your cockpit from a distance, sparking mass panic and flight for cover.

This current Lurmpocalypse? This one's just a cute little feller. Give people a month of learning that LRMs can equal pain and destruction, and everything will get back to normal.

[Jack Lowe]

Igorius, on 23 March 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

Look, I don't like the idea of "dog piling" an argument, but these guys are right. I HAVE been playing since the beginning, and I've seen such Lurmpocalypses that would boggle the mind. Missiles that went straight up, then dropped straight down onto your cockpit like tears from an angry god. LRMs so fast that you didn't know what ripped you apart until you were already dead. Founders Catapults as far as the eye could see, raining down hellfire upon us poor plebs in our Atlases and Hunchbacks. Dragons desperate to knock over a missile boat so that their teammates might kill it before it brought forth the pain. Tag lasers flashing on your cockpit from a distance, sparking mass panic and flight for cover.

This current Lurmpocalypse? This one's just a cute little feller. Give people a month of learning that LRMs can equal pain and destruction, and everything will get back to normal.

Totally agree with this. It's been far far, make a die hard wanna rage quit, worse than this little bump on the road. What the LRM crowd seems to fail to acknowledge is the very important role and power their weapon has. LRM's are the only indirect fire weapon in the game, every other weapon regardless of it's range or type needs LOS to work. It's important because LRM's are a key part of how all other weapons achieve balance. Now it is completely true that buffing LRM's effectively nerfs the currnert meta that we're all so tired of. It is also true that those who were exploiting that meta are crying like babies. What I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that it didn't just nerf these builds it nerfed every single direct fire build and weapon. Some more than others but nerf them all it did. Does the AC'2 PPC or Gauss have different requirements to fire and hit than an AC 20 or MG or SRM? Nope just the range you need to be at. Now the longer range weapons suffer somewhat less they can still dish out damage some beyond LRM range. Others not so fortunate. Those shorter range weapons are more sensitive to this.

I'm glad as hell we have gone from a Snipe/ Poptart fest to something that is shaping up to be more balanced long range slugging match. There is some brawling and short range work in the mid to latter stages at times. Still I think those players not using fairly balanced direct fire builds are quite correct to be upset their build has been nerfed along with the rest. Their saying it's no fun to be half dead patiently waiting behind cover and being picked apart by spotters, or moving as carefully as they can to get into range for their weapons. It's still the same problem just added another factor.

Like it or not LRM's have a their greatest impact to game balance in affecting the range of engagement, and how open or closed a map is in terms of areas to fight. Like it or not they over shot the bar a little bit. Closing off the battlefield too much and making the range to great limiting the usefulness of certain builds. They need to have a small trim...... not a total buzz job, just a little trim round the edges to get them right.

P.S. I prefer medium speciality builds, light hunters, direct fire support, skirm types. I do play LRM boats some, although not my preferred style of play. They really did need this lovin they sucked before this patch. It is very nice to have them back. Still fair is fair, they got an extra kiss or two they shouldn't have.

Edited by Jack Lowe, 24 March 2014 - 06:49 PM.

[Solahma]

Only got 4 drops in tonight. Didn't even take AMS, barely saw any LRM heavy teams... strange, but I guess it's leveling out or simmering down now?

[wanderer]

Mazzyplz, on 23 March 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

the fact that there are counters to it doesn't mean there will be teams with NO ECM. what did this fact slip your mind?

The only reason there's teams with no ECM is that apparently, ECM is lostech on anything released after a certain date unless it's under 45 tons.

I mean, think about it. Seen any heavies with ECM slots? Or any assaults but the -DDC?

The dearth of ECM choices is very much PGI's decision. As it is, the few models available are in many cases preferred simply because of their EW capacity and have resulted in devs moving heaven and earth to deal with their abilities.

Fact is, you'd likely see nearly vanished heavy models like the Dragon appear in swarms if they added an ECM slot. It's that chaotic.

[Mazzyplz]

Quote

lol because "OP" implies by it's very definition that it can't be countered. It's over powered and can't be countered,

in what planet is OP defined this way? by definition??? give me a break. no it's not that "by definition"

overpowered means it's CLEARLY a better choice to make that will give you an unfair advantage, for whatever reason- not that it doesn't have counters, the mere fact that the counter doesn't do it's job correctly or there isn't enough of the counter for the ammount of said gameplay element, makes it OP

or are you defining words now from scratch - O.P is short of OVER POWERED. it doesn't say a thing about "it has no counters"



for instance in magic the gathering a black lotus was O.P, so it's officially banned. but if played it could still be countered by a force of will instantly. it doesn't matter.

the fact that it could theoretically be countered DOESNT MATTER AT ALL.
it's a spell that is BANNED FROM COMPETITIVE PLAY.

we're talking about a game that pays up to hundreds of thousands of dollars to some players each year. unlike this game, so they have higher stakes for proper balancing on it.
in case somebody will try and belittle this example, its a very good example of competitive play at a high level with millions of players globally.

not only is their current metagame balanced, their metagame each year is balanced with the past 20 years of metagame. if they can do that why is it that pgi can't balance their 9 weapons in a closed-system.
it doesn't matter if it is twitch, there are tons of twitch and non-twitch games with proper balance.
it shouldn't be this hard.

thanks for offering lessons of gaming but i'm not taking at this moment

Edited by Mazzyplz, 24 March 2014 - 11:18 PM.

[Shermburger]

Hre's a nuts-o idea.

Reduce LRM speed back to pre-patch. Make a purchasable module that bumps up LRM speed to what it is now.

Dedicated LRM users get the missiles they want, but they have to give up something for it.

[Curccu]

RadioKies, on 23 March 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

My 134kph Firestarter does not outrun them.
You can avoid ECM by having (you or someone in your team using) a TAG or Narc. Also a ECM is easy to destroy because they are in a fixed location. + Don't forget about BAP negating ECM between 270 and 200m.
If you lose lock you can relock after you or someone else spots the target.
Even if you lose lock the LRM's are still going to the last place they had a lock.

So how often do you just decide and succesfully take out ECM out of Raven or Spider because you know where it's located?

RadioKies, on 23 March 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Try running to cover in overheat valley, or try to go anywhere in a slow mech like the Victor, Stalker, Atlas, Jager etc within a few seconds. Try doing it piloting a mech you are still Basicing.

Yeah it's pain in the ass but it's pain in the ass against anything not just LRMs

RadioKies, on 23 March 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

AMS is a great solution that really helps against LRM atm... NOT!
AMS will shoot down about 5 missiles, how does that help against mechs with LRM 10/15/20? Mechs never carry just one LRM launcher and LRM capable mechs don't come alone.

There is always an option for your WHOLE TEAM to use AMS then they will shoot down 12x5 missiles. The pointof AMS isn't to negate LRMs fully but make them hurt less.

[Mazzyplz]

Quote

Yeah it's pain in the ass but it's pain in the ass against anything not just LRMs

that's true but how often do you see 10 ppc rounds flying at you at once?

that's the equivalent of a big lurm cloud, there's about 60 missiles or more in flight sometimes from 1 or 2 mechs alpha.
add this to the fact they might be out of sight, with a locust you missed just exposing it's tag your way

[Latorque]

reducing to 150m/s won't help. This is ridiculous. No idea about 12-man teams; but claiming that LRM boats were a dying breed before the patch is... off. There were loads; and they did damage enough (Jesus, i played enough cheaply built LRM-boats while eliting mechs ).

At least they could reduce the ridiculous ammo per ton - amount of LRMs; limiting the neverending 40+ missile volleys to the first half of the match. And no; "adapting to new tactics" completely dictated by overpowered indirect fire does not leave much room for fun. On a side note; suddenly Terra Thema doesn't seem so horrible anymore. The pretty much only hills ingame by now steep enough to limit LRM-fire to direct LoS-encounters.

[Roachbugg]

Spending half the match hiding behind a rock when the enemy team has 200 plus tubes isnt fun either. id rather deal with pop tards. The main problem is the trial stalker is still up give people to free of an access to a massive boat of pain. Another problem is there just arent enough ecm mechs any more and lights dont count cause most of the time they just use it as a cloaking device and dont stay any were near the team.

They really need to fix the srm hit reg so my brawling play style has been basically removed from the game. this land of domination by range has really killed the game for me the brawling range is supposed to be 300 meters not this new crazy 450-500m crap being called a brawl. I cant even do work in most of my mech right now my DD-c get narced and lrmed to death in more than half the matches since the lrm patch im just not enjoying it i agree the lrm needed some love but they instead got a trifecta of doom. the narc update the trial stalker still being a thing and the speed increase.

The people on these forums that seem to think that less people hate the new lrm change have honestly not been in many matches or talked to many frequent players if you would even watch some of the twtich channels many players both on the video and in the chat agree that the buff was too much. THe ones that support the lrm buff seem to be a vocal minority not a majority. nerf the speed to 150m/s and make the narc not counter ecm there are already enough ecm counters and too few ecm mechs now.

Edited by Roachbugg, 25 March 2014 - 02:54 AM.

[MadcatX]

Mazzyplz, on 24 March 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

we're talking about a game that pays up to hundreds of thousands of dollars to some players each year. unlike this game, so they have higher stakes for proper balancing on it.
in case somebody will try and belittle this example, its a very good example of competitive play at a high level with millions of players globally.

not only is their current metagame balanced, their metagame each year is balanced with the past 20 years of metagame. if they can do that why is it that pgi can't balance their 9 weapons in a closed-system.
it doesn't matter if it is twitch, there are tons of twitch and non-twitch games with proper balance.
it shouldn't be this hard.

I won't try to belittle this. I will definitely belittle this.

Standard format is definitely balanced for the top 1% of players. Beyond that, really depends how much money you spent.

Every format other then standard is grossly imbalanced for many reason, the top one I can think are decks built with infinity combos, which are essentially "I WIN", simple as that.

Keep in mind that, of those millions of players, only a small portion plays competitively at sanctioned events.