775 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

Whatever really. LRM (ab)users will always defend the easy mode they are (ab)using. We've had this discussion hundreds of times about pretty much everything that was broken.

[Steel Claws]

The speed change may help some but I think I speak for many when I say that we would really like to see the flight path flattened out some so that they don't go over cover as easily as they currently do - maybe 5 to 10 degrees. This would also decrease the flight time so the speed could be lowered to 150 and it would have the same effect as having the speed at 160. This was the problem with the first increase in speed that was given to LRMs back in closed beta - the speed was increased but so was the flight angle - which effectively eliminated the speed increase.

An increasing heat to stop over boating wouldn't be bad either.

Edited by Steel Claws, 28 March 2014 - 09:35 AM.

[Fut]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

First and foremost, much of that damage, approaching half, was delivered via indirect fire. Something that no other weapon system is capable of doing.

Sure, that's true.
Although, no other weapon system has to deal with counters like AMS and ECM (plus the new Chaff System that's coming, and the LRM Warning Module thingy).

Give and take. With all the things available to mitigate/nullify LRM damage, the weapon system needs something to make it worth while. In case you were wondering, the indirect fire capabilities is what helps make the weapon viable. However, the indirect fire from LRMs isn't nearly as good as it can be when used LOS with ART+TAG. So indirect fire isn't the hand of god like so many people are trying to make it seem.

Edited by Fut, 28 March 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[stjobe]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 March 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Whatever really. LRM (ab)users will always defend the easy mode they are (ab)using.

And those who benefit most from the current state of affairs will be the ones opposing any changes the most.

[Roadbeer]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 March 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Whatever really. LRM (ab)users will always defend the easy mode they are (ab)using. We've had this discussion hundreds of times about pretty much everything that was broken.

I'm curious as to what you're considering an abuser?
The more tubes you use, the more ammo you're wasting on an alpha. Say you have 80 tubes, and you're carrying 1440 rounds (8 tons), under the best case scenario, that gives you 15.5 shots or the equivalent of just over 2 tons of AC 20 ammo. Given spread damage, lost locks, exponentially more heat generated on that alpha, etc... plus you're sacrificing almost all defensive weapons to be able to do that.

The skill of the LRM comes from knowing WHEN and HOW to fire. The alpha spammer runs out of ammo quick with very little reward for their effort. It's the low skill pilot who fires all their tubes all the time, and while it may look impressive in the sky, it's just a psychological warfare weapon at that point, which apparently is doing it's job, because y'all afraid of them right now.

[Kjudoon]

If boating is the problem, then all the hardpoints should be changed so boating cannot happen on any mech for any weapon type. No more Ballistiboats, Laserboats or Missleboats. If you dont want to cut down to a max of 6 total hard points, then you weight limit them so you can have multiple hardpoints of limited weight type.

1 ton limits -
2 ton limits -
5 ton limits -
10 ton limits
20 ton limit -

Of course that limits customization, loadouts and effectivness. The only benefit would be that light mechs would not be as capable of charging assault mechs. Of course, kiss your 6ML Jenners and Firestarters goodbye. The Banshee would be nerfed as well, if it could not boat Ballistics or Energy. And that Catapult 1A? yeah... gone.

Boating is not the issue. Bad piloting, desiring a specific "Mechwarrior Canon" style combat and refusal to change is. People have to quit demanding this game forces people into a certain playstyle, and be more a simulator and let the playstyle evolve to the merits of the game. Yes that means some weapons will be patently useless because they just don't perform for squat. That's not a bad thing. Why do aircraft use missiles? Because they're superior to guns in air to air combat. Why are battleships not built in abundance? Their role as king of the fleet has been supplanted with aircraft carriers, and they're glorified cruise missile ships with a set of bigger guns that often are and anachronism.

Mechwarrior should start going much more sim and much less shooter so more people can enjoy the game. But they're not, so don't expect it, and watch us devolve into Mech-lo or Mech of Doody with less and less thinking, strategy and reason to play.

[Dimento Graven]

Fut, on 28 March 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Sure, that's true.
Although, no other weapon system has to deal with counters like AMS and ECM (plus the new Chaff System that's coming, and the LRM Warning Module thingy).

Give and take. With all the things available to mitigate/nullify LRM damage, the weapon system needs something to make it worth while. In case you were wondering, the indirect fire capabilities is what helps make the weapon viable. However, the indirect fire from LRMs isn't nearly as good as it can be when used LOS with ART+TAG. So indirect fire isn't the hand of god like so many people are trying to make it seem.

And the flip side to that is no other weapon system benefits so much from:

1. TAG
2. NARC
3. UAV
4. Adv. Target Decay
5. Adv. Sensor Range
6. BAP
7. Artemis

Of course NOW with the recent changes:

1. TAG an ECM'd target, no longer ECM'd.
2. NARC an ECM'd target, no longer ECM'd.
3. UAV an ECM'd target, no longer ECM'd.

So ECM isn't that much of a compensating factor.

MAYBE when the reduce the speed of the missiles come next week, the AMS will have a more proportional affect to that speed, but considering the paltry buff to AMS and the CURRENT state (175kps speed), it requires multiple stacked AMS to significantly affect a boated LRM volley.

The ONLY thing AMS has in its favor is the fact that it's not affected by having to shoot through buildings or terrain, to hit the missiles (I find this is a bad bug, but considering the current state of missiles, one I can live with, for now).

Edited by Dimento Graven, 28 March 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Dimento Graven, on 28 March 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

And the flip side to that is no other weapon system benefits so much from:

1. TAG
2. NARC
3. UAV
4. Adv. Target Decay
5. Adv. Sensor Range
6. BAP
7. Artemis

Of course NOW with the recent changes:

1. TAG an ECM'd target, no longer ECM'd.
2. NARC an ECM'd target, no longer ECM'd.
3. UAV an ECM'd target, no longer ECM'd.

So ECM isn't that much of a compensating factor.

MAYBE when the reduce the speed of the missiles come next week, the AMS will have a more proportional affect to that speed, but considering the paltry buff to AMS and the CURRENT state (175kps speed), it requires multiple stacked AMS to significantly affect a boated LRM volley.

The ONLY thing AMS has in its favor is the fact that it's not affected by having to shoot through buildings or terrain, to hit the missiles (I find this is a bad bug, but considering the current state of missiles, one I can live with, for now).

It couldn't be that 3 tons of equipment have to be countered by 8.5 - 12.5 tons of equipment (Artemis is variable) plus 2 possible modules (only one of which is exclusively for guidance). And since right now 90% of all this is geared towards LRMs and the remaining towards the far less used and effective Streaks, yeah, I'd say the whole concept is unbalanced.

It must be because LRMs are OP, not ECM/AMS.

Edited by Kjudoon, 28 March 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[Faith McCarron]

If you can use this, you can use LRMs

[Kjudoon]

I'm sorry, that tests for motor control, not strategic thinking. That's the Ballistics training course.

Edited by Kjudoon, 28 March 2014 - 10:06 AM.

[Steel Claws]

I really wish people would stop comparing LRMs to ballistic and Energy weapons because last time I checked there was no option of indirect fire for either of those weapon types.

[Lorgarn]

Wolfways, on 28 March 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

80 in a volley? You have definitely let the enemy outmaneuver you if that many mechs are hitting you.

How can I avoid being seen by an ecm shealded light, who just needs a moment to tag me, after which I can be oblitterated by his 5 LRM friends 800meters away I dont even see visually or on radar?
Ohhh you sliped a second...BAM...dead....

[Kjudoon]

Steel Claws, on 28 March 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

I really wish people would stop comparing LRMs to ballistic and Energy weapons because last time I checked there was no option of indirect fire for either of those weapon types.

I wish people would stop saying LRMs are OP because they keep getting beat out by energy and AC boats when put head to head with them.

But whadayagonnado?

[Fut]

Lorgarn, on 28 March 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

How can I avoid being seen by an ecm shealded light, who just needs a moment to tag me, after which I can be oblitterated by his 5 LRM friends 800meters away I dont even see visually or on radar?
Ohhh you sliped a second...BAM...dead....

And here I was, thinking that TAG had to be held on target for the entire flight of the missiles.
Silly me.

[Joseph Mallan]

Faith McCarron, on 28 March 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

If you can use this, you can use LRMs

And Ballistics and Lasers Oh and SRMs

[Sprouticus]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 March 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

And Ballistics and Lasers Oh and SRMs

There is a really easy way to tell whether LRM's are OP.

How many of the winners from the contest last week were using LRM's. Because if LRM's are that powerful, then LRM boats should be plentiful in the top scores and wins.

[wanderer]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 March 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

No. Problem is broken missiles mechanic.
As for cover. Most of that cover is useless as LRMs go way above it easy enough.

I have yet to figure out how you get splattered that badly by missiles. Are your 'Mechs like twice as tall as mine are?

[Wolfways]

Lorgarn, on 28 March 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

How can I avoid being seen by an ecm shealded light,

Don't rely on your mech to find targets. You can still see ECM mechs.

Quote

who just needs a moment to tag me,

The spotter needs to keep the TAG on you until the missiles hit you (if you're moving). Plenty of time to shoot the spotter.

Quote

after which I can be oblitterated by his 5 LRM friends 800meters away I dont even see visually or on radar?
Ohhh you sliped a second...BAM...dead....

This is the bit i really don't understand. If you are using cover (i.e. behind anything taller than your mech) missiles will not hit you, whether there's a spotter or not.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Sprouticus, on 28 March 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

There is a really easy way to tell whether LRM's are OP.

How many of the winners from the contest last week were using LRM's. Because if LRM's are that powerful, then LRM boats should be plentiful in the top scores and wins.

lrms are team weapons... Now was the last tournament group drop enabled? (legit question) a 4 man can be extremely deadly if 3 missile boats (READ: 30+ missiles per volley) are complemented by an intelligent ECM spotter light that doesn't just go run off to kill himself. however if they are 4-5 missile boats with 2 spotters is becomes even more ffective. THE KEY ISSUE is that the total dps from missile boats on the team is added to EVERY SINGLE MECH on their team that can get LOS on a target. Unless the other team is constantly behind cover, which, (at least in assaults) much cover that is normally sufficient for protection is useless against lrms due to flight angles (see caustic if you don't believe me) and if one team is trapped behind cover that leaves the other team free to roam around the map, cap objectives, flanking maneuvers, killing stragglers, etc.

If there were no lrm teams on the leaderboard and the tournament allowed gropus, I would say it is a combination of being a boring playstyle (and requiring the spotter to have an unrewarding game) and the fact that the damage is typically shared between the boats so while they do great on average, they don't have as many 6+ kill 1.2k damage done games.

Wolfways, on 28 March 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

Don't rely on your mech to find targets. You can still see ECM mechs.

The spotter needs to keep the TAG on you until the missiles hit you (if you're moving). Plenty of time to shoot the spotter.

This is the bit i really don't understand. If you are using cover (i.e. behind anything taller than your mech) missiles will not hit you, whether there's a spotter or not.

wrong, with target decay they only have to glance at you for a split second and you will be hit by much of that first volley just about every time (decreases as speed goes up but an atlas gets pounded). 4 lrm boats with a spotter can kill just about any mech within 1000m in 10 seconds. That means if you go 60kph (16.667 m/s) you can be close to half dead if you decide to try to run 75-100m (5-6 secs of not being behind lrm immune cover)) to another piece of cover. if memory serves that would be less than 1/3 the diameter of the caustic crater. Obviously that won't happen every time but the fact that it can happen is unacceptable and slows down the game far too much that people start getting impatient and getting picked off.
Having so many things that can buff a weapon system while also having some equipment that can severely limit the effectiveness (ECM) means that in the absence f the counter and presence of all the buffs, it will be too powerful. They need to reduce all effects on things like spread, lock-on speed, remove target decay module and reduce the loss of lock to 1 sec after loss of LOS, remove the invisibility cloak from ECM (it still severely limits targeting speed) or make every group of 5 lrms target a different component like streaks (my favorite idea).

Edited by Tw1stedMonkey, 28 March 2014 - 12:29 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Wait wait wait... Are you saying that if I spot for an LRM mech, I get a share of the damage counted towards me??? I knew of spotting assists, but... damage bonus too?