134 replies to this topic

[ShinVector]

Kyxe, on 08 April 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

I generally play brawlers or snipers. (Actually to be fair 7/10 matches I play brawling mechs because it's the play style I enjoy the most, and I seem to be masochistically addicted to large pulse lasers lately.) However, I dabble in LRMS occasionally running goofy lrm builds on my Griffin or a lighter mech. I don't agree with the belief that LRMs require no skill. Playing a slow **** with no way to defend itself in an up close fight in a game where you get laser boats that can still outrun your missiles and get in your face requires a lot more work than people who ***** about LRMs give them credit for.

The skill level required to do well in LRMs cannot be compared skill level required to do well in to short range direction fire weapons.
Simply because of the range difference.
You have to understand this point.

There is also no need to slow in an Griffin LRM boat..
Here is one: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5a401d99a310e7f

Rex below is 'cheating' with ECM to survive..
Imagine what would have him without ECM ?

I mysell rather not resort to ECM until the next LRM Storm overload where decide get EZ mode damage kill via LRMs... Happen sooo many times already.

[Jess Hazen]

what a terribad griffin fit. too much ammo and no direct fire backup in case you lose your torso. i do run the 4 lrm 5's with about 4 tons of ammo which is trolltastic enough chaining those things off in your face at 300m but at least i also run an erppc on mine.

there are currently zero griffin variants that have room for a tag.

Edited by Jess Hazen, 08 April 2014 - 10:19 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

Rex Antilles, on 08 April 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

I think missiles are much better now after the nerf patch but they are still very strong. I don't know if they need another speed nerf at this point though. I would like to see the cone of effect increased a bit more even if this means fast mechs like my favorite light mechs will get hit by more missiles because of said cone of effect.

Case and point. I run a Raven 3L a lot, I find myself having to peek and shoot a lot during a match at 500 meters with medium lasers to keep my team under ECM cover if the opposing force has a few boats. Yesterday, I broke off from my team on Canyon network when we were up 6 kills to 5 in an assault game. Literally a minute after i left them we were losing 6 kills to 10 because I left my team open to the boats for only 60 seconds. If I had stayed, in all likelihood we would have still been almost if not even in kill numbers, but I wouldn't really have been effective myself in the game at all. So the only option i have most maps is to stay back with my group and fire outside of my true effective range most of every map.

This wasn't completely my fault, I know my team should have been aware that the ECM cover was gone and should have dodged the LRM's but it doesn't happen very often in PuG drops.

Edit: Maybe i should join the masses of Ravens that are dropping their knife fight weapons and start using two ER Larges instead.

Mate, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. I usually now run only:
Raven 3L
Commando 2D
Spider 5D and Cicada 3M

I am constantly struggling with the decision to go and do something or shield my team, what to do? If the enemy is lrm heavy that usually means I'm shackled to a few cowering heavies/assaults and nigh on useless besides lrm defeating:(
I've been dropping in my Huginn and Jenner F lately and I feel like I'm gimping my team-purely because I COULD be dropping in an ECM mech.......I feel like I have to use them to help teams out.....

Not nice is it?

[wanderer]

ShinVector, on 08 April 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

Accordingly to the LRM lovers in the LRM feedback thread.. 'It is NOT OP since it didn't actually leg me."
That why I get for trying to flank and spot out of cover for 6 SECONDS ??!

You got hit by a direct fire weapon that took most of the armor off your leg, actually. If that'd been LRM damage, you'd have gotten hits all over the 'Mech at that speed from something with enough missiles to blow off half your leg to begin with.

Incidentally? I was running around with a trio pack of -3L Ravens. We basically zipped along and while I'd distract for a moment or two in my max-engined Catapult (no LRMs, mind you) they'd home in on the missile salvo source and nom a boat.

They killed three of the four in one round before I even got a shot in after circling cover and coming in as they attacked. We love missile boats. Most of the games with lots of them are ones that don't even think to cover each other, tend to hang back, and don't realize there's a light pack on them until it's too late.

When your team went down 4 guys? Did you TELL them you were dropping their ECM cover, or did you leave them out in what was a safe position with their defensive pants suddenly around their ankles?

[wanderer]

Jess Hazen, on 08 April 2014 - 10:17 PM, said:

what a terribad griffin fit. too much ammo and no direct fire backup in case you lose your torso. i do run the 4 lrm 5's with about 4 tons of ammo which is trolltastic enough chaining those things off in your face at 300m but at least i also run an erppc on mine.

there are currently zero griffin variants that have room for a tag.

If you lose the torso on an XL Griffin, it's dead either way. Also TAG, you're it:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...37971e91984c381

[ShinVector]

wanderer, on 09 April 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

You got hit by a direct fire weapon that took most of the armor off your leg, actually. If that'd been LRM damage, you'd have gotten hits all over the 'Mech at that speed from something with enough missiles to blow off half your leg to begin with.

Incidentally? I was running around with a trio pack of -3L Ravens. We basically zipped along and while I'd distract for a moment or two in my max-engined Catapult (no LRMs, mind you) they'd home in on the missile salvo source and nom a boat.

They killed three of the four in one round before I even got a shot in after circling cover and coming in as they attacked. We love missile boats. Most of the games with lots of them are ones that don't even think to cover each other, tend to hang back, and don't realize there's a light pack on them until it's too late.

When your team went down 4 guys? Did you TELL them you were dropping their ECM cover, or did you leave them out in what was a safe position with their defensive pants suddenly around their ankles?

I think if you listen closely you would hear the LRM volley hitting my mech and getting that leg down to critical.. It wasn't the lasers from that range, bending corners.

I think you are mistaken or something.. Since I had not run an ECM mech for sometime..
ECM cover ?? On a Jenner K ??
If I recall correctly... I spent while a bit of time mountain brawling with their ECM Spider until his LRM Wolverine buddy..
I killed off the Wolverine and the Spider ran away since I got his leg armour down to red.

Edited by ShinVector, 09 April 2014 - 05:59 PM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

They beefed up lrm's because they were a weapon lights laughed at. And nobody thought was usable without teamwork or tag before. Now they work and all I hear is whine, whine, whine.

You are complaining you nearly got your leg tore off going 2on1. But killed the lrm'er. And only think it was not right because he used a weapon you do not like.

You got a kill. job done..

[ShinVector]

Of course the LRM lovers will try to justify their much loved weapon 'must' be effective against everything on the battlefield.
Meanwhile in the background they are scheming for ECM to nerfed to yet increase the effectiveness of their said boats.

Who needs role warfare when you can have LRM stand offs right ? Much fun making whole PUG teams cower behind rocks in fear of their LRM ... (/sarcasm)

[Kjudoon]

ShinVector, on 09 April 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

Of course the LRM lovers will try to justify their much loved weapon 'must' be effective against everything on the battlefield.
Meanwhile in the background they are scheming for ECM to nerfed to yet increase the effectiveness of their said boats.

Who needs role warfare when you can have LRM stand offs right ? Much fun making whole PUG teams cower behind rocks in fear of their LRM ... (/sarcasm)

[Jon Gotham]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 09 April 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

They beefed up lrm's because they were a weapon lights laughed at. And nobody thought was usable without teamwork or tag before. Now they work and all I hear is whine, whine, whine.

You are complaining you nearly got your leg tore off going 2on1. But killed the lrm'er. And only think it was not right because he used a weapon you do not like.

You got a kill. job done..

They whine because of the effect it has on the gameplay inside matches. They should be effective I agree. but when they stifle movement of teams and cause large scale cowering stand offs, surely you agree that cannot be good?
And as for the lights comment, that does not even deserve a response-even a snarky one.

Kjudoon, on 09 April 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

I like you a lot buddy but this time can't agree with you. Some of the whiners have some very legitimate points and I'm not seeing very good defences for lrms being as they are. there is some pretty interesting logic gymnastics going on.

[ElCadaver]

Master Maniac, on 25 March 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Not touching the game for a good long time. Hopefully they'll unscrew their pooch. I happen to very much like MWO for the most part, but the LRMs have rendered the game absolutely unplayable...once again.



You do realize that Assaults pop-tart because attempting anything else results in them getting roflpwned by LRM spam, right? Right? Hmmm? Emerge from cover for the one or two seconds needed to get locked up by ANY enemy on the field, and an assault instantly gets swarmed by more than a hundred LRMs. Your only recourse is to hide in cover and use jumpjets for snap shots.

Listening to the LRM apologists whine about poptarting is pure hilarity.

EDIT: Watched the V-Log. Looks like they're going forward with that braindead 3, 3, 3, 3 rule. HAHAHAHAH. *breathes* HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAH

This game is completely dead, now.

Not true. I always facepalm when I see the atlas marching forward through waves of lrms crashing over it towards the enemy line, like they are invincible.

So, for assaults

12 man drops - have specific tactics to deal with lrm boats, usually light harassment, or counter tagging or narcing for first attack. Not a problem unless you do something stupid.

Pug drops - take cover, and snipe until they have armor breaches. THEN, if you wish to charge, they will either (1) die or (2) back off to protect their vunerable hides. Just encourage your team to savage any light spotters who try to get in your back line

Play style.

If you know you are going to get hit, turn around to spread the damage to back and arms, you will last longer, and by the time you are facing them again, your heat will be low enough to alpha their face right off.

Hang around AMS and ECM mechs. In pug drops even ask for a missile shield escort so you can get to where you need to be to do what you need to do. Most nice light and medium players don't mind helping out, it's in their own interest to have a 100 ton shield nice and fresh to pop out from behind and pew pew.

So yeah, if you are that medium range brawler atlas charging across open ground, with "RIDE OF THE VALKYRIES" playing in the background, yeah, lrms suck balls, and LRM noob champion trial mechs will continue to pwn you.

http://youtu.be/V92OBNsQgxU

Edited by ElCadaver, 09 April 2014 - 08:07 PM.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

The main reason for the LRMarmeggdon is in my opinion that LRM boats had been and are now part of the Trial mechs. New Player test LRM and use them.

[FupDup]

This "Lurmageddon" passed before it even started.

[Kjudoon]

The LRMageddon 2.0 never existed.

Balance between Energy/Missile/Ballistics has been killed in the cradle again by a QQ overdose from the lovers of the status quo. Why? Because an AC centric 12man can stomp the daylights out of a missile centric 12man virtually every time. The poor energy centric hover somewhere in the middle, but can still beat missile centric groups as well fairly easy.

Of course, there is one main reason why too... ECM eliminates or severely restricts the effectivness of only one weapon class in the game and is incredibly OP. AMS can shoot down 20-80% of all missiles in a single volley per unit. You want to balance this out, return targeting computers or allow ECM to knockout crosshairs or give 'jj shake' to them on all weapons when confronted with an ECM bubble. There would also need an anti-energy/ballistic version of AMS if it was to be balanced as well.

The balance should look a lot more like this in the weapon balance:

LRMs = ACs = PPCs.

LRMs get indirect fire and guidance and no damage drop off.

ACs get longer range and pinpoint damage with low heat.

PPCs get infinite ammo and anti ECM,

Lasers infinite ammo and instant hit speed

When facing off against each other with all things being equal, the weapon groups should essentially be tied. They are not. This is balance I want to see. Not some idiotic "twitch 2 win" crap that leaves everyone but the twitch munchkins out in the cold.

The complaint is being made that LRMs killed "Role Warfare". No, they didn't. Small maps and nothing beyond kill or cap did. Why have a scout on a small map? You know the 1 or 2 routes the enemy is going to take? If you want to destroy indirect fire, why have spotters? There's no need. Just park your big ACboats at the choke points and button mash till you win or die. When cap points are so close even stalkers can get to them with relative ease, the map is too small to consider lights essential for conquest.

Crimson Straits, Terra Therma and HPG Manifold are three of the most balanced maps in the game. Lots of places for cover from LRMs and the long range game is limited while the short range game has lots of uses too. Caustic Valley, Tourmaline Desert, Canyon Network and Alpine Peaks favor long range games while Frozen City, River City and Forest Colony favor short range games. Since we don't have the ability to pick maps yet, the balance here comes in the need to develop a mech for any of these eventualities. If you don't, who's fault is that? Not the computer's.

People want balance to the game, but it seems that in all honesty, they don't want real balance where any fight style other than theirs can beat them. Self interest is at work here. I know I'm biased towards LRMs and want them to see a much more balanced role so that ACboat 12man cannot just ECM away an LRMboat 12man and stomp them without a second thought as is almost always happening currently.

That might make some thing the issue is only in ECM... and in many regards, that is the centerpiece of why LRMs are unbalanced and why they go from king of the battlefield to joke in seconds. If this one issue alone was balanced out, by either spreading the effects of ECM soft counters and AMS like hard counters to Energy and Ballistic's top tier weapons then balance a la nerf would be achieved.

[ShinVector]

ShinVector, on 09 April 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

Of course the LRM lovers will try to justify their much loved weapon 'must' be effective against everything on the battlefield.
Meanwhile in the background they are scheming for ECM to nerfed to yet increase the effectiveness of their said boats.

Who needs role warfare when you can have LRM stand offs right ? Much fun making whole PUG teams cower behind rocks in fear of their LRM ... (/sarcasm)

I think I only need to quote myself to response to the post above.

Anyway... Researching the LRMer5 Medium boat last night made me remember that boat are most effective only when you have decent spotters especially on comms. It has always been like that even in closed beta.. I wonder what is with all the angst that LRMer boats have a harder time on their own, even now ?

[Kjudoon]

I believe the 'angst', as you incorrectly define it, is more frustration at the fraud that LRMs are OP when ECM most certainly is and pretending that there is no need for fixing weapon balance issues in the game unless it is to make ACs more dominant.

But since you're just going to recycle the same previous "nothing to see here, just make LRMs useless" crapola, there's really no more reason to listen or discuss the issue with you.

[ShinVector]

Nothing what I say will convince you that LRM slides into the OP region when there is more than one super LRM boat.
The 84% solo pug droppers have a lot of trouble dealing with, making PUGs cower in fear behind rocks and the game LESS fun.

Meanwhile my research of this LRM menace continues..

On another note... I prefer Lasers over all weapon types.

Edited by ShinVector, 09 April 2014 - 11:58 PM.

[Mordin Ashe]

Well, even though Shin is Liao and therfore inherently crazy, he is right in this regard. What Pugs need is more running and gunning because that is how one learns to drive, position himself, shoot and gets some tactical awareness. Hugging a hill in fear will keep that player as bad as he was three months ago, plus he is much more prone to leaving the game because it simply isn't fun.

While one can boat LRM5s or LRM15s, there are much better builds out there. My current LRM boat (some Battlemaster, can't remember the version) has average damage of some 630. A lot one could say. Pity my ballistic Banshee has close to 700, more kills, is much more enjoyable, durable and suffers from less frustration.

But still nerf the ECM!

[ShinVector]

Resorted to petty insults eh.. space pirate... I will remember you.

[wanderer]

Quote

The 84% solo pug droppers have a lot of trouble dealing with, making PUGs cower in fear behind rocks and the game LESS fun.

I live in the "solo PUG drop" world.

If they don't learn to run and gun to beat LRMs, they'll be the same useless meat shields at higher ELOs when we just stick the barrels of a Jagermech in their face and pull the trigger- because situational awareness and the need to not freeze in place are critical for exiting scrubdom.

I get experienced players smoking LRM boats constantly- heck, for laughs I've been driving my no-LRM Catapult around hunting them. If I can do it with regularity in a 65-tonner, why on earth can't others do anything but "QQ LRMs"?

Hunting is frequently very, very good.