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So Is Artificially Increasing Ping Cheating?

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#121 Adiuvo

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:52 AM

View PostEglar, on 14 April 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:


You just made me run the entire audio in the background. It was 1 (Ryan) who did it. Villz is from Australia with a 2xx ping, the guy who kept calling victors autistics - he was trying out different pings to see if there is any improvement. Heim was not doing it. Nuclear weapon is from mexico, he's getting a 100 ish ping anyway. Adiuvo swears on his light ping so I can't imagine him doing it.

Wait what no I don't... I have shit ping for a light mech player. It ranges from 80-100 constantly and my hit reg compared to someone with 30 ping is horrid =/

#122 dario03

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:10 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 14 April 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

Wait what no I don't... I have shit ping for a light mech player. It ranges from 80-100 constantly and my hit reg compared to someone with 30 ping is horrid =/


I don't think it is all in the ping, hitreg is just weird. My connection still shows as being very good but coincidentally my hitreg went crazy right around the time that my cable company moved TV to all digital. I ping around 30 and when I ran the ping test that Eglar posted I got zero packet loss but my hitreg has been horrible for the past couple of weeks which is right when that change took place and my internet was going down every night for a while. They are probably still working out some bugs but even though my ping only went crazy a few times my hit reg has been crazy the whole time. Crazy as in not able to kill a red CT Awesome while shooting him multiple times with dual AC5 crazy, heck I didn't even think it was possible to miss a Awesome, let alone a Awesome that is right in front of you.
Before that change I still had issues with hitreg but not as often as I do now. So none of it makes sense to me, unless like someone was saying that ping test doesn't actually work because the game is going through something different. But even just looking at the games scoreboard my ping is usually pretty stable.

Edited by dario03, 14 April 2014 - 12:14 PM.


#123 Eglar

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:26 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 14 April 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

It ranges from 80-100 constantly and my hit reg compared to someone with 30 ping is horrid =/


Eh, that's a great ping in my eyes. :-)

#124 Mister Blastman

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:40 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 14 April 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

I don't know about this... I remember reading that players had to lead or trail a Mech by X to overcome lag and other issues with other MW titles in the past. I think i sounds pretty hard to overcome the limits of Internet hardware and data travel times. ;)


Heh. I was there in the beginning. When Mechwarrior 2 first hit the internet. It was around before Quakeworld existed!

We were on 14.4 kbps and 36.6 kbps modems! (cause 56k was a joke for the most part) We were using DOS klos dialers over ppp.

... And we had to lead our shots. And we liked it! Because our shots counted and did damage when they hit where they were supposed to.

And how did we know they were supposed to? Because some of us became masters of the lag. Much like the force, it existed... and a few of us could feel it. We knew where it was before it even showed its head.

Damage registered!

Then Quakeworld came out... and all of a sudden low ping became king. The rest is history until you fastforward to when Team Fortress Classic came out and Valve patched it with the infamous latency/lag patch.

What was this mystical force... the TFC Latency/Lag patch?

It was HOST STATE REWIND! I forget the year it came out but I swear it was around 2000 - 2001. All of a sudden modem users (yes, there were many unfortunate souls that still used modems then) could compete with T1/DSL users! We didn't need a 40 ping, our 250 ms ping worked fine! We could aim straight at enemies and tear them apart with our Medic shotgun. Life was good.

Fast-forward to 2007. Team Fortress 2 came out. Servers were populated with 24 - 32 players. It was mayhem. It still is, actually. Lots of people still play it. Hits... register. All the time. You shoot people. They die. Stuff works! The good old Valve HSR works like a champ.

There are subtle flaws you might notice if you are sniping... but for the most part it is rock solid.

Fast-forward to now. PGI implemented HSR a year ago (I know, temporal fluctuations)... and their HSR fails. All the time.

What happened?

Team Fortress 2 has no such limits. It works like a dream. Team Fortress Classic had no such limits. It worked like a dream.

But MWO? It can't? What?

I don't think hardware has anything to do with it here...

#125 Darth Futuza

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:48 PM

Although I consider it cheating, it isn't enforced/can't be and laws without consequences are useless so...

#126 Bilbo

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:52 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 14 April 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:


Wait what no I don't... I have shit ping for a light mech player. It ranges from 80-100 constantly and my hit reg compared to someone with 30 ping is horrid =/

I don't know why people still think a 30-40 ping, like mine, has any better luck with hit reg than anyone else. We don't.

#127 Mister Blastman

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:01 PM

View PostBilbo, on 14 April 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

I don't know why people still think a 30-40 ping, like mine, has any better luck with hit reg than anyone else. We don't.


I average a 42 for a ping and I theorize that having a low ping is more of a detriment than having a higher, more stable one in the 120 - 150 ms range. At least, how PGI coded it from what I can tell.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 14 April 2014 - 01:02 PM.


#128 Clit Beastwood

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:10 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 14 April 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

Wait what no I don't... I have shit ping for a light mech player. It ranges from 80-100 constantly and my hit reg compared to someone with 30 ping is horrid =/


Hey Adiuvo - is your ping pretty stable? I run primarily lights too and after getting a new router and dedicating bandwidth just to my MWO computer it smoothed out. The average is the same but the spikes/dips are gone. Just wondering if you've tried that. My hit reg is better now via the router than it was with the cable modem plugged direct into the computer. I set QOS to flag all traffic to/from that computer as high priority, and added more priority to the ports I observed MWO using.

New router is actually a minipc using an intel d2500 mainboard, picoPSU powersupply. The d2500 mainboard is an Atom solution with 2xgigabit ports on it. Lower power utilization and very configurable. I'm running IPFire as a firewall distro.

Edited by Fierostetz, 14 April 2014 - 01:15 PM.


#129 Adiuvo

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:36 PM

View PostBilbo, on 14 April 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

I don't know why people still think a 30-40 ping, like mine, has any better luck with hit reg than anyone else. We don't.

It may vary on individual connections but every single light I've seen that even gets 3/4ths of a laser's damage has a ping around 30. This includes competitive players. Meanwhile I literally get maybe 15 damage on a full laser burn, maybe 6-10 if it's on another light, and then it just occasionally fails to register altogether.

View PostFierostetz, on 14 April 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:


Hey Adiuvo - is your ping pretty stable? I run primarily lights too and after getting a new router and dedicating bandwidth just to my MWO computer it smoothed out. The average is the same but the spikes/dips are gone. Just wondering if you've tried that. My hit reg is better now via the router than it was with the cable modem plugged direct into the computer. I set QOS to flag all traffic to/from that computer as high priority, and added more priority to the ports I observed MWO using.

New router is actually a minipc using an intel d2500 mainboard, picoPSU powersupply. The d2500 mainboard is an Atom solution with 2xgigabit ports on it. Lower power utilization and very configurable. I'm running IPFire as a firewall distro.

My ping varies from around 80 to 100 typically, and if it spikes it can go to 140. Pretty sure this is a byproduct of my connection, since I'm using a series of WIFI bridges to connect unfortunately... I'm in a studio and I'm getting my connection off of the router in the main house, which is roughly 300 feet and multiple walls away.

I'm looking forward to the day this place finally gets wired up =/

I haven't set QoS flags as you have yet, but I'll do so now. Hopefully it helps.

Edited by Adiuvo, 14 April 2014 - 01:37 PM.


#130 Clit Beastwood

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:44 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 14 April 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

It may vary on individual connections but every single light I've seen that even gets 3/4ths of a laser's damage has a ping around 30. This includes competitive players. Meanwhile I literally get maybe 15 damage on a full laser burn, maybe 6-10 if it's on another light, and then it just occasionally fails to register altogether.


My ping varies from around 80 to 100 typically, and if it spikes it can go to 140. Pretty sure this is a byproduct of my connection, since I'm using a series of WIFI bridges to connect unfortunately... I'm in a studio and I'm getting my connection off of the router in the main house, which is roughly 300 feet and multiple walls away.

I'm looking forward to the day this place finally gets wired up =/

I haven't set QoS flags as you have yet, but I'll do so now. Hopefully it helps.


Good luck!

And spending the time to run Cat6e cabling was totally worth it. I did the wireless bridge thing for a long time and finally just bit the bullet. SO worth it. Good luck with the QOS stuff!

#131 AntharPrime

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 02:22 PM

View PostEgomane, on 14 April 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

Not where I come from! A ISP who is attempting something like this, no matter for what service, will find himself quickly singled out and reprimanded. Currently, they are not allowed to filter traffic in any way. Not by source, protocol or any other means, unless there is a court order for it.

Probably different in other places in the world, but in those places that really live up to a free internet, those methods will help.


Well the servers are in Canada and the Canadian ISPs are known as the worse offenders of throttling in the world. So that might be the problem right there.

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#132 ShinVector

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:33 PM

View PostFierostetz, on 14 April 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:


Good luck!

And spending the time to run Cat6e cabling was totally worth it. I did the wireless bridge thing for a long time and finally just bit the bullet. SO worth it. Good luck with the QOS stuff!


Wait a minute.. Wait a minute.... He mentioned 300feet... That around 91 meters.. Please note Cat6a and Cat5e (Cat6e a fake standard made up by vendors) has max range of 100 meters. If it is truly 91 meter, he needs to terminate to a network switch to be safe. Any cheap gigabit from Linksys, dlink.. etc SOHO brands will do. This will act as a repeater.
Normally to play safe people don't go more than 90 meters for copper ethernet.

#133 Clit Beastwood

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:39 PM

View PostShinVector, on 14 April 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:


Wait a minute.. Wait a minute.... He mentioned 300feet... That around 91 meters.. Please note Cat6a and Cat5e (Cat6e a fake standard made up by vendors) has max range of 100 meters. If it is truly 91 meter, he needs to terminate to a network switch to be safe. Any cheap gigabit from Linksys, dlink.. etc SOHO brands will do. This will act as a repeater.
Normally to play safe people don't go more than 90 meters for copper ethernet.


whoops meant cat6a :)

with proper endpoints it would be fine. Adiuvo doesn't sound to me like the sort to half-ass it.
cat 6a is rated for 100m + the 10m for wall-to-device and patch panel use.

Edited by Fierostetz, 14 April 2014 - 08:41 PM.


#134 Saint Scarlett Johan

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:50 PM

I do a lot of network related work. And stability > latency.

If you have two players of equal skill, equal mechs, meeting on equal terms. Both have an average ping of 80; Player A fluctuates between 70-90 and Player B fluctuates between 40 and 120.

Player A will have the advantage in ping simply because of stability. This is with nothing like HSR, much like the old skool shooters like CS1.6, DoD, and UT99.

However, in the day and age of HSR and it's like (and often ilk, as the old games had lag leading that was compensated for simply by observing the players ping. Whereas poorly implemented HSR often led to hair pulling at unregistered shots.), players have found ways of utilizing it to their advantage.

HSRs are different, some utilize pure client side hit detection like Halo and COD. Where I hit him out in the open on my screen where on his in the 200ms difference he got to cover to only die, to Halo's infamous host-freezing where many players are spiked while the host machine can freely move about and kill opponents. This method is going out of style because of how easily it is abused.

Others utilize server side detection. Some do it well, like BF.... some... not so well. One of the particular reasons why BF does it well is because it can be set to have a floor and ceiling for latency. Players outside those parameters are either booted upon joining or simply not allowed to join. Games such as MWO and the early WOT days (before regional servers), don't implement a hard floor or ceiling, they use is as a "soft floor/ceiling" and optimize the software for those ranges.

Here's where it gets iffy:
What's the range? What's the average that you should seek?

PGI's telemetry says, "The average player has 'X' latency range." And so PGI optimizes their software for THAT range. Falling outside of it doesn't benefit you. Meaning players with 40-ms and 250+ms tend to notice the not working HSR the most.

The closer you reach the "golden ping" the better you should THEORETICALLY be. I've actually spent a fair bit of time looking in to this over the last two years (with the 6 month exception due to service) and I've noticed several things:
  • My ping fluctuates between 30-130, but does so predictably. As well as my tinkering with my own ping to troubleshoot.
  • During the morning hours of GMT-6, my ping averages 110 +/- 10ms. The Europeans I play with have similar pings ranging from 100-150ms. I have no issues with hit registration whatsoever, and I don't receive ghost damage.
  • During the evening hours of GMT-6, my ping averages 63 +/- 30ms. The Canadians/Americans I play with have pings ranging from 10-150ms, averaging 60ms. Matches where my ping was lower than the targets meant some hits not registering or suddenly mechs dying a second or two after getting hit. Matches where my ping was higher, they had unregistered hits or I received ghost damage.
To test my findings, I throttled my evening ping to match my morning ping, and I noticed a decrease in lost hits, however, the ghost damage I received seemed to pick up to match the number of hit I was making (I was hitting more and getting hit more).






TL:DR; There is an optimum ping for server side hit detection and finding it is as much cheating as going into settings and adjusting settings for the maximum eye-candy/performance ratio.

In essence, I find my best performance sitting at around 100-120.

Cheating would be directional throttling. Which is what happened in the "good ole days" of CS1.6, UT99, and Halo2 and is very possible and easily replicated in MWO with varying degrees of success.

Edited by JohanssenJr, 14 April 2014 - 08:52 PM.


#135 ShinVector

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:18 PM

View PostFierostetz, on 14 April 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:


whoops meant cat6a :)

with proper endpoints it would be fine. Adiuvo doesn't sound to me like the sort to half-ass it.
cat 6a is rated for 100m + the 10m for wall-to-device and patch panel use.


The 100 meter should be node to node, that why people use 90 meters as slack for the end devices.

#136 ShinVector

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:25 PM

View PostJohanssenJr, on 14 April 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

I do a lot of network related work. And stability > latency.
.....
Cheating would be directional throttling. Which is what happened in the "good ole days" of CS1.6, UT99, and Halo2 and is very possible and easily replicated in MWO with varying degrees of success.


Hmmmm.... Honestly your example.. I would say that player A and B is hardly going to notice any difference.
Try bigger network jitter values and don't forget my serious issue like packet loss.

PGI stated that the optimised the HSR up to 500ms.

However in any case.. Network jitter (variation in network latency) is something you want as little as possible in real time applications.

Edited by ShinVector, 14 April 2014 - 10:26 PM.


#137 Saint Scarlett Johan

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:10 PM

View PostShinVector, on 14 April 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:


Hmmmm.... Honestly your example.. I would say that player A and B is hardly going to notice any difference.
Try bigger network jitter values and don't forget my serious issue like packet loss.

PGI stated that the optimised the HSR up to 500ms.

However in any case.. Network jitter (variation in network latency) is something you want as little as possible in real time applications.


Packet loss is the biggest killer. But more jitter tends to lead to more packet loss. Jitter and packet loss are the biggest culprits in rubberbanding and warping, and possibly missed hits.

500ms is a BIG buffer for real-time applications like a video game, which may honestly be too much and overtaxing the software.

And then are those things just make no sense whatsoever in the IT world...

#138 HANGMAN1962

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:36 PM

ok day 2 now i'm getting 6 to 8 or more players on opossing side w/110 to 150 ping.
when I get near them its lag fest til death!
HALF TO TWO THIRDS OF A TEAM AT A TIME AT THIS SAME PING RATE!!
BUT HAY ITS"NOT" AN EXPLOIT?!!
GETTING CORED OUT BEFOR I CAN FIRE MY LBX'S 2 TIMES IN A ROW NO WAY A SPIDER CAN DO THAT IN 1 LBX CYCLE OF RELOAD AND FIRE!

EDIT: sorry about the caps lock just notice them now, my bad wasn't supposed to typed as a shout fest guys

Edited by HANGMAN1962, 15 April 2014 - 12:58 AM.


#139 HANGMAN1962

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:55 AM

ok a few hrs of playing and it seams the team w/the most players in this ""sweet spot"" ping range wins very time!
now that smacks of repeated demenstratability of its exploitation.
in science repeatability is the "proof" of concept/theory.
or is e=mc2 hear say?
IE: jus how meny yrs did einstien have to wiat til he got pics of the sun to conferm his theory and win a"nobel prize"?!!

#140 Tekadept

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 02:06 AM

Hmm by choosing to live in Australia am I "purposely inflating my ping" ? :)
290 ping on a great day when the moons align :)

Edited by Tekadept, 15 April 2014 - 02:07 AM.






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