471 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

3rdworld, on 21 April 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

Did you deal no damage, or have zero kills?

Also what does tagg accomplish? Killing mechs. What is ECM used for? Making it more difficult for the enemy to kill you.

1 role to rule them all.

I did a little damage, and i'm not sure if i got a kill in that match....but probably not.
I can say with certainty though that if i hadn't been using ECM and running to help teammates then we would have lost two mechs to LRM fire (it was on Alpine).

TAG didn't help me kill anything. It did help my team, but i certainly didn't get a kill for using it.
The game is not about killing mechs. It is about teams killing each other. If you help keep someone alive and get killed before you get a kill then you still helped your team.

[Wolfways]

3rdworld, on 21 April 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

If your death count is higher than your kill count when 3/3 modes can be or have to be won by killing mechs, and some 90% (according to PGI) matches end in kills......

yes, it does mean you played poorly.

I guess i'm more of a team player than you then. If i can help my team win i don't care about personal kill count.

[Kjudoon]

So what about new metrics to add more clarity to how we're doing?

Kill/Damage ratio? Number of kills divided against the amount of damage you do. Gives a sense of your efficiency with your damage.

Kill/Assist ratio? Shows the efficiency between how many mechs you damage versus how many you kill.

Data's data, but bad data is easy to misuse, misinterpret and confuse.

Edited by Kjudoon, 21 April 2014 - 08:05 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 21 April 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

But you are assuming that your deaths somehow contributed to those wins, when there is no evidence of that.

Folks who know me know that I tend to play quite aggressively, so I know what it means to put your mech into dangerous situations... but part of being good means being able to get OUT of those situations as well.

There's literally no reason, ever, for you to die.

Now, back in MW4, there actually was utility in dying sometimes, due to splash damage... You could potentially do MORE good by dying in certain cases.

But in MWO? There's zero utility in dying. And it's a mistake to believe that certain beneficial actions require death to accomplish.

I am assuming the work I did before I died had an impact on the victory yes. The death in and of itself... no. If I tie up 3-5 Enemy mechs while the unit gets int position my 300-500 damage will have softened the enemy and made them easier for the team to kill. now dying with less than 200 damage... Being dead is a benefit to the team cause I sucked that match!

[3rdworld]

Kjudoon, on 21 April 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

So what about new metrics to add more clarity to how we're doing?

Kill/Damage ratio? Number of kills divided against the amount of damage you do. Gives a sense of your efficiency with your damage.

Kill/Assist ratio? Shows the efficiency between how many mechs you damage versus how many you kill.

Data's data, but bad data is easy to misuse, misinterpret and confuse.

Well in my opinion kills should be awarded based on the % of damage done to the component that kills the mech.

If I shoot 90% of CT off of a victor, than an ember finishes him, I should receive 9/10ths of a kill.

Though as someone who has tracked stats for my unit's competitive matches, it probably wouldn't make much difference. Good players get kills bad players don't.

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

I am assuming the work I did before I died had an impact on the victory yes. The death in and of itself... no. If I tie up 3-5 Enemy mechs while the unit gets int position my 300-500 damage will have softened the enemy and made them easier for the team to kill. now dying with less than 200 damage... Being dead is a benefit to the team cause I sucked that match!

Over the course of a single match, sure. But we are talking about stats over a lifetime. And over the course of a pilots playtime, situations like this do not represent the norm.

Edited by 3rdworld, 21 April 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[Roadkill]

Adiuvo, on 18 April 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

This has been answered before and it's considered non-participation.

You are taking up everyone else's time because you want to protect a single stat for lord knows what reason, as the only thing KDR is kinda sorta useful for is to get into an organized groups. The majority of them don't care about that even.

I really don't understand the logic that's going through your head that makes sitting there for 8 minutes not griefing.

You are wrong.
Egomane's explanation

TL;DR - as long as you participate during the battle, it is perfectly acceptable to run and hide once the battle is lost. It is not a violation of the ToS or CoC.

[Wolfways]

Kjudoon, on 21 April 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

So what about new metrics to add more clarity to how we're doing?

Kill/Damage ratio? Number of kills divided against the amount of damage you do. Gives a sense of your efficiency with your damage.

Kill/Assist ratio? Shows the efficiency between how many mechs you damage versus how many you kill.

Data's data, but bad data is easy to misuse, misinterpret and confuse.

Personally i don't think there can be a stat that shows individual performance as we never fight as individuals...unless there was a stat which only counted 1-on-1 fights between fresh mechs.

[3rdworld]

Wolfways, on 21 April 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Personally i don't think there can be a stat that shows individual performance as we never fight as individuals...unless there was a stat which only counted 1-on-1 fights between fresh mechs.

You would need to modify it for MWO, but here you go.

uPER = (1 / MP) *
[ 3P
+ (2/3) * AST
+ (2 - factor * (team_AST / team_FG)) * FG
+ (FT *0.5 * (1 + (1 - (team_AST / team_FG)) + (2/3) * (team_AST / team_FG)))
- VOP * TOV
- VOP * DRB% * (FGA - FG)
- VOP * 0.44 * (0.44 + (0.56 * DRB%)) * (FTA - FT)
+ VOP * (1 - DRB%) * (TRB - ORB)
+ VOP * DRB% * ORB
+ VOP * STL
+ VOP * DRB% * BLK
- PF * ((lg_FT / lg_PF) - 0.44 * (lg_FTA / lg_PF) * VOP) ]

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 21 April 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

If you're running a negative K/D then your team is winning despite of you, not because of you.

A negative K/D ratio is always bad. There is no benefit to you dying. Your dying never helps your team.

Having people shoot at you can be helpful.. but that just reinforces how dying is not good... Because once you're dead you're no longer putting fire down range, and you're not longer absorbing hits from the enemy.

Killing enemy mechs is always good. Dying is always bad.

Wish the world was as black and white as you think Roland.

You make a mostly good point, and then pooch it by making a blanket statement "Dying is always bad".

So, when my team wins, because I get back to cap, and step on it, knowing I don't have the armor left to beat the remaining enemy, but buying the time for my slower lancemates to arrive and beat the OpFor off the cap, allowing us to win by enemy destruction vs losing to resource capture, my death negatively impacted the team?

Sorry, not all of us are apparently as "Wolverine" as you, where we can get there in a trashed mech and singlehandedly beat off 3-4 enemy mechs. Is it an extreme example? More so perhaps now that we have Skirmish removing the Cap from most people's equations. But in the previous, pre turret assault mode, being the guy who chose to drive a fast brawler/flanker, as opposed to the slow PopTart (aka MetaLord approved "proper" mech), I made that choice more than I liked to. And since I still usually killed 2-3 in a match, I think my death actually kinda helped.

[3rdworld]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

So, when my team wins, because I get back to cap, and step on it, knowing I don't have the armor left to beat the remaining enemy, but buying the time for my slower lancemates to arrive and beat the OpFor off the cap, allowing us to win by enemy destruction vs losing to resource capture, my death negatively impacted the team?

Wouldn't living longer be preferable than dying in this situation? Also if you are already dead (instead of wounded), you aren't getting back to the cap are you?

[Bishop Steiner]

3rdworld, on 21 April 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

Wouldn't living longer be preferable than dying in this situation? Also if you are already dead (instead of wounded), you aren't getting back to the cap are you?

Living longer, and losing to cap accomplished what?

Wheres as, buying the time for my team to arrive, accomplishes a possible win? Me thinks you missed the concept.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Appogee, on 21 April 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

You are over-thinking it. Or deliberately trying to over-complicate it. Not sure which.

You can shut down and/or hide if that makes sense in the context of still actively trying to win the game. You can't shut down and hide if you're not trying to win the game... (for example, trying to preserve your meaningless k/d stat, or having a fit of pique because you felt your team doesn't deserve your further participation, or ... any of the other lame excuses regularly given.)

Man up, fight on, die proud. Occasionally it will lead to a glorious unexpected victory.

This has already been cleared up.
I wasn't asking for my own benefit. I will go down fighting. I was asking because many people are confused because PGI has never given a clear cut answer.

Edit: I have editied my first post to explain my motives to any future quoters

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 21 April 2014 - 08:24 AM.

[3rdworld]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Living longer, and losing to cap accomplished what?

Wheres as, buying the time for my team to arrive, accomplishes a possible win? Me thinks you missed the concept.

Which part of my statement said that living longer = losing the cap?

When stopping a cap by standing on it, you want to pull out the dip, dodge,duck,dive,and dodge.

running up and getting instat killed would rarely if ever accomplish anything.

Edited by 3rdworld, 21 April 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[Appogee]

TheCaptainJZ, on 21 April 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

This has already been cleared up. I wasn't asking for my own benefit.

Sorry, my bad.

[Bishop Steiner]

3rdworld, on 21 April 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

Which part of my statement said that living longer = losing the cap?

When stopping a cap by standing on it, you want to pull out the dip, dodge,duck,dive,and dodge.

running up and getting instat killed would rarely if ever accomplish anything.

Sometimes, all the dip and duck in the world wont save you. Yes, boy wonder, you still do it, to prolong things, but there are plenty of times, no matter how good you are, you are going to die. Sometimes Mr Stark, somebody has to lay down on the barb wire. Especially those of us who don't drive Spiders, so the OpFor can actually hit us consistently. Much like Rolands comment I referred to, rarely does one have such a nice clean B&W option. But then, I am not in your Elo, I suppose, so am just lacking the skillz?

(perhaps you overlooked the words "buying the time"? Does not imply walking up and parking and shutting down. But I have played matches where even that split second did make the difference between a win and a loss, so yes, sometimes even that is acceptable, though preferably one goes down actually fighting.)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 April 2014 - 08:42 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 21 April 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Well in my opinion kills should be awarded based on the % of damage done to the component that kills the mech.

If I shoot 90% of CT off of a victor, than an ember finishes him, I should receive 9/10ths of a kill.

Though as someone who has tracked stats for my unit's competitive matches, it probably wouldn't make much difference. Good players get kills bad players don't.




Over the course of a single match, sure. But we are talking about stats over a lifetime. And over the course of a pilots playtime, situations like this do not represent the norm.

You do remember that I constantly seem to be the statistical anomaly over my lifetime in this game right?

It is very narrow minded that a good player is based solely on his KDR. Good scouts don't have good KDRs, Good Fire Support is not always going t have high KDR. Good leaders may also not have high KDR. Three roles off the top of my head that don't need high KDR to be a benefit to a team.

[Roadkill]

TheCaptainJZ, on 17 April 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Is that PGI's official stance? That you can hide at the end of a match if you participated up to that point? Can someone spell out exactly what is allowed and what is not as many people have different views on the topic and no one is sure exactly where the line is? Or is there no clear line?

EDIT: Since people are quoting me, to be clear, I will go down fighting because I'd rather get the match over with and hopefully get a kill or assist. I was asking because many people are confused on this topic and afaik, PGI has never fully given a clear-cut answer.

PGI, in the form of Egomane, has answered this fully before. It's exactly as Nikolai says:

Egomane's explanation

[AlmightyAeng]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

Sometimes, all the dip and duck in the world wont save you. Yes, boy wonder, you still do it, to prolong things, but there are plenty of times, no matter how good you are, you are going to die. Sometimes Mr Stark, somebody has to lay down on the barb wire. Especially those of us who don't drive Spiders, so the OpFor can actually hit us consistently. Much like Rolands comment I referred to, rarely does one have such a nice clean B&W option. But then, I am not in your Elo, I suppose, so am just lacking the skillz?

Eh...the problem is that every game is so situational. I've seen an Atlas charge off guns blazing without so much as a "I'm going in!" in chat and sigh when he predictably gets torn apart. I've seen the opposite where a guy tells people to form on him and crest simultaneously and lead a bunch of scared pugs out of a bad position.

Is KDR indicative of skill? It can be, yeah. If anything it might indicate that the pilot puts themselves in positions that are favorable for killing while NOT getting shot at...thus surviving. Some people would equate that with skill. I call it making the best of the situation...I have direct-fire support mechs built to do EXACTLY that...because I don't build them to be the frontman or play peekaboo. I've seen plenty of decent pilots still go up in flames while being a huge benefit in doing so. It depends on playstyle.

Regardless of what stats people have, I know that there are guys I run with who I trust to "make the right choice." Are you in your battering ram of a Misery? Yeah...you're gonna take point and plough the road for me, and I will willingly follow you in knowing that you're gonna open up LOTS of juicy internals for me to take out. In return I'll keep the guys on his sides in cover and try to keep him alive as long as possible. We have a system, it works. Does it trash his K/D? Sometimes. Do we take out a crapton of the other team doing it? Almost every time. Is it worth it? I'd say yes, and we have FUN doing it.

What makes a player 'good' for me? The ability to read a situation and act appropriately. I've had games where I bail on a teammate because he's put himself in a position to get screwed. Very much a case of "Get clear Wedge, you can't do any more good back there!"

I've similarly stated on comms "Shit, I got greedy" and had my team backfill in while I played sacrificial bait, tearing into the rear armor of the dudes kicking my ass.

Shrug. Teamwork and "making good choices." And no stat is gonna tell me that...it'll just hint.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 21 April 2014 - 08:51 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

But that is called Team work Badger. Each of you play your role knowing you will each cover the others back. And like you said it may not be good for KDR but it will aid the win loss. I get 1 kill and 2-3 assists before I die, I did my part to help the team win. When the match is over I have 1 kill and 4-5 Assists even after being dead my effort still helped the team to to get a few more kills. That is a good days work.... Posthumously!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 April 2014 - 08:58 AM.

[Roland]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

But that is called Team work Badger. Each of you play your role knowing you will each others back. And like you said it may not be good for KDR but it will aid the win loss. I get 1 kill and 2-3 assists before I die, I did my part to help the team win. When the match is over I have 1 kill and 4-5 Assists even after being dead my effort still helped the team to to get a few more kills. That is a good days work.... Posthumously!

You would aid your team more by killing more enemy mechs and dying less often.