471 replies to this topic

[Bront]

Some good points, but I want to address a few of them individually.

FatYak, on 17 April 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

• KDR is a terrible way to assess someone ability to be part of a team

True, for many of the reasons listed below.

FatYak, on 17 April 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

• KDR is pointless if your dealing heaps of damage per match but your teammates get the kills because they were lucky enough to pull the trigger at the right time

In theory, this should even out and you'll tend to get more kills if you're the one dealing deadly damage.

FatYak, on 17 April 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

• KDR is highly effected by the mech your piloting

True. Spider 5D? Probably not a great KDR, but still could be useful. Heck, the Atlas might die a lot, but there's use in being a target to let your team mates take advantage of being ignored.

FatYak, on 17 April 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

• KDR does not mean jack if you got rofl stomped for your first 200 hundred matches because of a broken matchmaker and then spent the next 6 months trying to make up the deficit

KDR has elements of luck on both the kill side and the death side.

FatYak, on 17 April 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

• KDR should be calculated over the last 100 drops you made to actually be a representation of how you are performing now and not an accumulation of the last however many months of play it took to work you the steep learning curve the game has (in fact, ELO should work like this too)

They could easilly make a "last 100" stat in addition to KDR. ELO is eventually self correcting, so it doesn't.

FatYak, on 17 April 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

• KDR taken over from the time you start playing MWO to the tpilot you are "today" does no represent your piloting skills today, but the piloting skills you had several months ago

Or learning new mechs, or experimenting with builds, you can excuse it in multiple ways.

FatYak, on 17 April 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

• KDR in its current form is pointless

Not true. Sometimes it's nice to see, and watching it rise as you get better (or fall if you change play styles or mechs) can be interesting.

Ultimately, KDR is flawed, but it's still a fun stat to know for folks who are curious.

[Adiuvo]

Kjudoon, on 18 April 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

If you fought at any point and just ended up that last guy in a ROFLstomp, by the spirit and letter of the rules... no.

Other players disinclined to wait, or search for that last mech can drop out and go play another match in one they have readied up or a trial mech. Unless a mod wishes to correct me on it, doing 'hard target searches' where you find a powered down mech with mark 1 eyeballs (love that phrase), it is not griefing nor is it violating the rules. BUT... those who hate anyone who won't walk willingly to their own firing squad will scream blue bloody murder that it is.

They're still wrong.

This has been answered before and it's considered non-participation.

You are taking up everyone else's time because you want to protect a single stat for lord knows what reason, as the only thing KDR is kinda sorta useful for is to get into an organized groups. The majority of them don't care about that even.

I really don't understand the logic that's going through your head that makes sitting there for 8 minutes not griefing.

[Kjudoon]

Adiuvo, on 18 April 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

This has been answered before and it's considered non-participation.

You are taking up everyone else's time because you want to protect a single stat for lord knows what reason, as the only thing KDR is kinda sorta useful for is to get into an organized groups. The majority of them don't care about that even.

I really don't understand the logic that's going through your head that makes sitting there for 8 minutes not griefing.

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 17 April 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

There's a difference between making a tactical and incidental use of a game mechanic in the heat of the moment, such as the example you provide, and outright consistent abuse of one by shutting down and hiding at the beginning of and throughout a match several times.

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 17 April 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

I believe my response may have been misunderstood. To clarify and reiterate:
Our example of abuse in this scenario is if you consistently shut down at the beginning of a match without participating throughout that match, you are essentially not playing the game, and preventing your team from having an active player who could help them. In engaging this behavior you may be reported, and eventually warned. Continuing to engage in this behavior after warning may result in further sanctions being taken on your account.

Contrary to this, random use of powering down as a strategic maneuver, such as to hide and cool down weapon systems in a last ditch effort to make it to the bitter end, is perfectly acceptable and intended.

As you can see, according to the mod I quoted, If you try and fight, and suck, going and hiding, waiting for an opportunity to ambush someone or be forced to fight again, is NOT griefing. Emphasis mine.

It is griefing or violation ONLY if you joined the match with no intent to participate, go hide and shut down, deliberately at the start of a match. That's what I'm seeing here, and have discussed with devs in the past.

Edited by Kjudoon, 18 April 2014 - 08:57 AM.

[Zoid]

Roland, on 18 April 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

Basically no one who actually has a high KDR really tries specifically to have a high KDR, much to the chagrin of people who like to try and rationalize away their low KDR's.

That is, the suggestions that people get high KDR's by hiding are absurd on their face, and presented by people who don't really understand how the game works.

Here's the secret to having a good KDR:
1) Kill enemy mechs
2) Don't die

That's pretty much it. Ironically, that's also THE POINT OF THE GAME. So if you are good at that, you are good at the fundamental core of the game.

You don't hide, because hiding doesn't kill mechs. (violating rule 1) Additionally, if you don't support your team and then they all die, then you are virtually guaranteed to die (violating rule 2).

The best way to kill mechs is to run a high alpha mech, and use it with great precision to kill targets quickly and cleanly. And pilots who do this are pretty much the most valuable players to have on your team. And they will all have at least reasonably high KDR's, not because they specifically try to buff them, but because high KDR's are a natural result of good play.

What you say is not incorrect but not entirely complete. Most of the time, the guy with the best KDR in a match is the one who hides behind a ridge of some sort and pops out just long enough to drop a strong alpha, most often only able to do so because others are taking fire.

I notice that in every game that ends up being a brawl (one side charges and forces the other side to engage and stop hiding), there's always that one guy who manages to hide waaay back in a Banshee or Jager and gets 4+ kills. Unless you're fighting complete idiots, the only way you're going to get "clean quick kills" without getting hammered yourself is if your target is focused on someone else.

And yes, it is easy to get a strong KDR by hiding at the expense of your team. Even a very one-sided game will have a lot of 'mechs that are heavily damaged and only need a couple shots to kill them, in addition to not having much left for weapons. It's not at all hard for a healthy Atlas to pick up 4 or 5 quick kills before you die in a game like this. I know because I've done it a few times.

So basically, KDR is correlated with better playing iff the player also has a good WL ratio. By itself, it is purely a measure of how much you let your team tank for you.

[Adiuvo]

Kjudoon, on 18 April 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

As you can see, according to the mod I quoted, If you try and fight, and suck, going and hiding, waiting for an opportunity to ambush someone or be forced to fight again, is NOT griefing. Emphasis mine.

It is griefing or violation ONLY if you joined the match with no intent to participate, go hide and shut down, deliberately at the start of a match. That's what I'm seeing here, and have discussed with devs in the past.

By sitting there for 8 minutes at the end of the match because you want to protect your KDR you are not making a 'tactical' or 'strategic' use of game mechanics, as you have no positive intent. You are just sitting there, waiting out the clock, causing everyone else to have their presumably favorite mech locked for the duration. You can try and say you are waiting for an ambush all you want, but these things rarely happen if you are behaving passively.

[PropagandaWar]

DONTOR, on 17 April 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

I love having KDR, its a good way to measure my progress in this game.

hahaha. Tell that to my kill stealing friends. The other day a teammate had 6 kills 250 damage 2 assist. My other friend and I had over 500 each I had 0 kills 11 assist the other 1 kill 11 assist.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 18 April 2014 - 09:10 AM.

[Roughneck45]

I don't know why people get so upset over KDR. It just a stat, they track a lot of other ones too.

To everyone saying that it can be skewed so easily and is a meaningless stat, yes, the data can be manipulated, but that is the exception not the norm. Better players will have a higher KDR, and worse players will have a lower one. Just a fact.

[Roland]

Kjudoon, on 18 April 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

If you fought at any point and just ended up that last guy in a ROFLstomp, by the spirit and letter of the rules... no.

According to the rules, yes.

If you hide at the end of a skirmish match, with the intention of not engaging, and with your actions having no possible avenue to victory, you are in volation of the TOS as Niko explained recently.

This doesn't mean that you are forced to rush in head first and die. You can certainly play a hit and run type fight and draw it out..

But you aren't allowed to just hide and not fight.

[Sarlic]

Roughneck45, on 18 April 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

I don't know why people get so upset over KDR. It just a stat, they track a lot of other ones too.

To everyone saying that it can be skewed so easily and is a meaningless stat, yes, the data can be manipulated, but that is the exception not the norm. Better players will have a higher KDR, and worse players will have a lower one. Just a fact.

Not in this game.

My KDR dropped in just a week from 2.7 to 1.65. I don't care about KDR. All due lacking teamwork. It has nothing to do with being 'good' or 'bad'.

Roland, on 18 April 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

Basically no one who actually has a high KDR really tries specifically to have a high KDR, much to the chagrin of people who like to try and rationalize away their low KDR's.

That is, the suggestions that people get high KDR's by hiding are absurd on their face, and presented by people who don't really understand how the game works.

Here's the secret to having a good KDR:
1) Kill enemy mechs
2) Don't die

That's pretty much it. Ironically, that's also THE POINT OF THE GAME. So if you are good at that, you are good at the fundamental core of the game.

You don't hide, because hiding doesn't kill mechs. (violating rule 1) Additionally, if you don't support your team and then they all die, then you are virtually guaranteed to die (violating rule 2).

The best way to kill mechs is to run a high alpha mech, and use it with great precision to kill targets quickly and cleanly. And pilots who do this are pretty much the most valuable players to have on your team. And they will all have at least reasonably high KDR's, not because they specifically try to buff them, but because high KDR's are a natural result of good play.

This is not Call of Duty...

[AlmightyAeng]

Sarlic, on 18 April 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Not in this game.

My KDR dropped in just a week from 2.7 to 1.65. I don't care about KDR. All due lacking teamwork. It has nothing to do with being 'good' or 'bad'.


This is not Call of Duty...

Hiding and ambushing are different. And no, it's not CoD...doesn't mean Roland is wrong.

While I'm sure there are exceptions, if someone has a high KDR it generally isn't because they're trolloling around killstealing and then hiding.

[Roland]

Ghost Badger, on 18 April 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

if someone has a high KDR it generally isn't because they're trolloling around killstealing and then hiding.

The only people who think so are garbage boys looking to rationalize their poor play by blaming other folks.

[Dawnstealer]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 17 April 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

There's a difference between making a tactical and incidental use of a game mechanic in the heat of the moment, such as the example you provide, and outright consistent abuse of one by shutting down and hiding at the beginning of and throughout a match several times.

So, in other words, if you're shutting down to win the match for your team, it's tactical and not a violation.

If you shut down because you don't want to die and your team is losing and you want to protect your KDR: violation.

[scgt1]

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 April 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Wow, just wow.

That is pretty poor sportsmanship on your part. It is a dis-service to your team too (even if you are loosing baddly).

I'm kind of suprised you even admitted that. I suppose it was to try and show how bad you think the matchmaker is (like what extremes you will go to), but it just makes you look like a poor tempered player. I would consider not admitting to moves like that in the future.

Kjudoon, on 18 April 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

Just so you know, this is a violation of TOS, and can get you banned from the game. Till now, maybe you have gotten lucky that nobody's put it together you are doing that, but this admission really isn't going to help you if a mod decides to act. I'd suggest stop doing that if you enjoy playing the game. /psa

Maybe I should expound on my description a little more:

The times I do just flat out bail on the match (which you two make it sound like I do it on a regular basis just for the hell of it like I'm farming for c-bills or something) are always when I'm pugging (which is very rarely because I do belong to a group)and of those matches that I do bail on they could be 5-10 matches a month. I don't get alot of free time to play MWO and I'm not about to sit around and waste it for 30 seconds while I'm being gang rapped by 4-5 other mechs on the other team because PGI's said "working elo balance" fails them. I can clearly tell I'm about to be taken out and there is just no point in continuing.

Up until points like this (that don't happen too often) you can damn sure bet I put in my fair share of effort for the team but when your faced with 2-3 jaggers in your face and some other odd ball config of lights with machine guns just running amuck around you and your in a lumbering lrm boat with just 2 medium lasers to back you up (or another mech that stands no chance in comparison) there is just no point to stick around. How much more damage can those two medium lasers deal while your getting pelted in the ct with ballistics from 2-3 mechs out of lrm range in your face and lights running amuck tearing apart your internals with machine guns.

It's pointless to argue the fact that unless they were all cored out red and out of ammo you would never take even one of them out before they get you down. All while the rest of the 2-3 players that are left on your team are running for their lives all over the map.

It's poor matchmaking outcomes like this that I'm referencing.

Most of the time though I'm grouped up in 4 mans with my group and those matches I stick it in till the end because we are working together on coms and know what the hell all of us are doing. You don't get that in pug matches and you sure don't get matched up evenly as a solo player. Hell for that matter most of the time your not evenly matched with groups either because the matchmaker just DOESN'T WORK as it is.

PGI claims you can't drop more then one 4 man. I see it nightly on other teams we are against. Occasionally if it's a really bad rolling night our 4 man will attempt to sync with another 4 man from our group and 5-6 out of 10 times we at least end up in the same match with 3-4 of those matches being on the same side and not against each other.

I've been in the game since early closed beta. I've been around for all of it. The game went to hell back when they did the elo threshold adjustment. Matchmaker has always been bad but it went for the south when the did the adjustment and it hasn't gotten any better.

The game needs a MM just like COD or the BF series where anyone drops in what ever they want. It's worked for those franchise for how long? Exactly my point. This whole 3/3/3/3 thing they are going to do and supposidly still keep it only 4 mans (which they still can't do) is just a joke and it takes away from what Mechwarrior is as a whole.

To bring up the KDR issue I'm sitting at 1.79 since the reset so I wouldn't say I'm a shitty player that just bails on matches all the time. Since the reset last month or when ever I've probably only ditched on 5 games. Of three of those it was because my framerate was so terrible which was after the 15th patch. That of which I found out to be I still had Prime95 running in the background. So ultimately 2 games I've ditched on in a month and a half plus. I can't say that is really poor sportsmanship as you say. It's common sense. If I'm about to die 1 on 3-5 mechs and I can tell I have no chance of doing any thing to any of the mechs I'm against there is no point in wasting my time and I could just move onto the next match.

I don't stick around after matches (pug or grouped) after I've been killed usually. (Unless it really is a damn good match) I jump out and ready up the next mech if grouped or grab another mech and drop into another game. As I stated I don't get a ton of time to play so I like to either rejoin the fight or be ready to drop when everyone else is.

Then again with your poor sportsmanship comment I'm sure your one of those guys that gg after defeating a team with 10-12 mechs left alive too. Which total stomps are not good games. Good games are ones that come down to the last few mechs battling their assess off.

You also have the tools in their lights that as this thread is talking go and hide like a chicken shit and then want to gg afterwards because he is still alive and cause a draw instead of fighting. This is something I have never done and wont do. There is a big difference in pussing out and hiding vs bailing when you know your about to die at least the effort is getting put into the game up to that point.

Edited by scgt1, 18 April 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[Roland]

Dawnstealer, on 18 April 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

So, in other words, if you're shutting down to win the match for your team, it's tactical and not a violation.

If you shut down because you don't want to die and your team is losing and you want to protect your KDR: violation.

Yeah, it's really not that complex.
And the reality is, everyone knows exactly what the difference is... Some folks are just trying really hard to rationalize it.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter, because I don't think PGI really deals with the reports players make against other folks in game anyway

[Sarlic]

Ghost Badger, on 18 April 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

Hiding and ambushing are different. And no, it's not CoD...doesn't mean Roland is wrong.

To me he writes as a invidually, a player who only plays for a positive KDR. That is what it sounds to me. Apologies if i am wrong, but that is the image i am getting from him.

MWO is based on teamplay. Not a guy who aims for his KDR. If i need to sacrifice for the team with dealing as much as damage as possible. I will do it if we archieve victory. I remember a post from him saying like 'High KDR is a good player low KDR is a bad player' <---- This is not a fact at all and that does not mean anything in this game.

KDR is just a stat, a stat where some people are obsessed by it and should be removed. MWO is based on teamplay.

If i throw a bunch of guys each other who are focused on KDR the outcome would likeley a defeat. Why? Because they dont do teamwork.

Edit: or am i off the discussion?

Edited by Sarlic, 18 April 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Sarlic, on 18 April 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

To me he writes as a invidually, a player who only plays for a positive KDR. That is what it sounds to me. Apologies if i am wrong, but that is the image i am getting from him.

MWO is based on teamplay. Not a guy who aims for his KDR. If i need to sacrifice for the team with dealing as much as damage as possible. I will do it if we archieve victory. I remember a post from him saying like 'High KDR is a good player low KDR is a bad player' <---- This is not a fact at all and that does not mean anything in this game.

KDR is just a stat, a stat where some people are obsessed by it and should be removed. MWO is based on teamplay.

If i throw a bunch of guys each other who are focused on KDR the outcome would likeley a defeat. Why? Because they dont do teamwork.

Edit: or am i off the discussion?

I interpreted his statement differently. Can you die in a match with no kills and still have been a 'good player' ? Yes. You can get 800+ damage and 6+assists and CERTAINLY have contributed, even if you die.

However, in the grand scheme, players who tend to survive and destroy other mechs in game more often than the reverse tend to be better players.

If you have a really really low K/D ratio because you're sacrificing yourself every single game and REALLY making it count...well...I think you're the exception. Not the rule.

It's why you can't gauge a player off JUST KDR in entirety. KDR, plus W/L plus average damage per match gives you a MUCH better idea.

But if you look at KDR all by itself...more often than not a higher, rather than lower, is indicative of a higher skill level.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 18 April 2014 - 10:15 AM.

[Roland]

Sarlic, on 18 April 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

To me he writes as a invidually, a player who only plays for a positive KDR. That is what it sounds to me. Apologies if i am wrong, but that is the image i am getting from him.

I played competitively as part of an extremely successful unit in Mechwarrior 4 for the better part of a decade, so I'm quite familiar with the most nuanced aspects of team play.

Quote

MWO is based on teamplay. Not a guy who aims for his KDR

As I already pointed out, players with good KDR's don't achieve them by trying to pad them. They are simply a natural result of being a competent pilot. If you are good, your KDR is high. That's just how it works.

And if you are a good pilot, then you are an asset to your team.

Quote

I remember a post from him saying like 'High KDR is a good player low KDR is a bad player' <---- This is not a fact at all and that does not mean anything in this game.

No, you are wrong.
All good players have a reasonably high KDR, and players with a KDR under 1 are pretty much all below average. There is no situation in which a good pilot will maintain a KDR below 1. Certainly there may be individual games where that happens, but if your lifetime KDR is less than 1, it means you die more often then you kill mechs, which means you are not contributing to your team's effectiveness as much as you should. Dying does not help your team, ever. Killing mechs always helps your team.


This isn't to say that you must have an insanely high KDR to be good... But every good player has a positive KDR.

Quote

MWO is based on teamplay.

Players with positive KDR's contribute more to their team than players with negative KDR's.
Bad players might not like to hear that, but it's a fact, and the sooner they come to terms with it the sooner they can improve.

Quote

If i throw a bunch of guys each other who are focused on KDR the outcome would likeley a defeat. Why? Because they dont do teamwork.

Again, good players aren't "focused on KDR".
People with high KDR's don't actually focus on their KDR's. They focus on killing mechs and not dying.
And that's how you win mechwarrior. By killing the enemies before they can kill you.

Good teamplay is actually BENEFICIAL to your KDR... Because if your whole team dies, you are likely to die as well. When your whole team is alive, they are giving your enemies more targets, making you less likely to die.. They are hurting the enemy and making it harder for them to defend themselves, meaning it'll be easier for you to get kills.

The idea that KDR is somehow orthogonal to teamwork is nonsensical, and only spouted by people who have no idea how the game works... Good teamwork leads to high KDR's.

Put a team of players with positive KDR's up against a team of players with negative KDR's, and they will crush them... pretty much every single time.

[Mordin Ashe]

Sarlic, on 18 April 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

MWO is based on teamplay. Not a guy who aims for his KDR. If i need to sacrifice for the team with dealing as much as damage as possible. I will do it if we archieve victory. I remember a post from him saying like 'High KDR is a good player low KDR is a bad player' <---- This is not a fact at all and that does not mean anything in this game.

Sorry but rarely sacrificing myself is a good way to help my team. It may have been in past but now when capping is rare it doesn't mean much. Doing damage and killing enemies helps though :-)
And yes, players with higher KDR are better players those with low KDR, and that is a fact. They may not focus on it, they may not work on it intentionally but the better player the higher KDR he has.

EDIT: What is so good about sacrificing anyway? Reminds me of an old Kurita doctrine. It didn't work for them back then and it doesn't work now. Sacrificing means -1 friendly Mech for little to no gain. Ferocious defense of own life, that may make an impact. But sacrificing? Isn't it more like people say "I sacrificed myself for the team" to cover that they failed to get into proper position and got killed from behind? I've never heard any good player talking about sacrifices. It may be my bad to get proper information but good players rarely perform suicidal acts.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 18 April 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[DONTOR]

^ Good point Ashe,
An example of this would be how I piloted a DDC originally. Sacrifcing myself for the teams push, that ultimately never happened while doing 4-500 damage with my brawler loadout.
As I became a better DDC pilot I realised staying back and providing ECM the duration of the match, and using a 50/50 split of long range and brawling weapons was still helping the team immensly and I wasnt having to "sacrifice" myself for the "better" of the "team". = higher KDR

[Kjudoon]

Adiuvo, on 18 April 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

By sitting there for 8 minutes at the end of the match because you want to protect your KDR you are not making a 'tactical' or 'strategic' use of game mechanics, as you have no positive intent. You are just sitting there, waiting out the clock, causing everyone else to have their presumably favorite mech locked for the duration. You can try and say you are waiting for an ambush all you want, but these things rarely happen if you are behaving passively.

Oh give it up. More often hiding is because the pilot refuses to do something stupid and see if they can manage to live through a match. There's a certain pride aspect even in an 0-11 loss of being that one guy who wasn't killed. Other times, it's because pinheads screaming demands to come 'die like a man'. Yeah, that's gonna entice me out. If I'm the guy looking for that last guy, it's a challenge to me. I actually enjoy and respect it. Sometimes it ticks me off on Conquest because unless the caps are flipped and I might lose, I never lose respect for the guy who's SMART enough to know when to not take on hopeless odds.

If you are convinced hiding is evil and those people who do it should be banned, how about instead offering a third out: the ability for that last person to retreat and cede the victory to you. Right now, you run out of bounds, zero XP or Cbills as a penalty. Thanks, but no thanks. So I have a choice, sit there and let some jerk get his jollies off on blowing me to pieces in some freakish ritual... and yes, I've watched jerks deliberately strip components to enhance their Cbills. Again, pass. I don't want to do my impression of a carcass on the Serengeti. So start whining to PGI to give a retreat option so people who don't want to lose what they did in game can retreat without penalty. Maybe make it a skirmish option. But if you want this fixed, offer an alternative.

If you can't/won't play any other mech than the one you have there, you've no one else to blame but yourself, and no one is obligated to ruin his game to satisfy you. Demanding it is selfish.

This 'wait 8 minutes' garbage came to be with the very flawed skirmish system, lack of retreat option and no way to finish the game by capping. Those who complained about cap, got what they wanted, and all the inherant problems that go with it... and this is one. Demanding that someone stop hiding, walk to the firing squad and die is arrogant and selfish.