471 replies to this topic

[hercules1981]

Rex Budman, on 17 April 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

Nnnnope! Straight out no.

I'll let you think about why that is...

I'm guessing because the high kdrs r using meta builds witch in turn only need about 30 to 120 damage a kill a mech if shot in the right place but I will say this. I have played with and played against many times 3 of the top mayb 10 players in the game from what I hear and these dudes rack up the kills and damage every time I'm in match with them so I'd like a little bit more explanation on what u mean.

Edited by hercules1981, 18 April 2014 - 01:28 PM.

[Pygar]

I dunno about removing K/R ratio, but it wouldn't hurt if PGI put more emphasis on other statistics...myself as a pilot, I seem to be not great at getting actual kills, but I tend to get tons of assists per match- it would be nice for stats like Assists, Component Destruction, Head Shots and Spotting Assists to be shown on the statistics page, and possibly be given bigger rewards in actual battles.

[Kubernetes]

Kjudoon, on 18 April 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

Demanding that someone stop hiding, walk to the firing squad and die is arrogant and selfish.

Oh, I see, it's not selfish to make 23 people wait 8 minutes so you don't get one more D in your KDR, but it is selfish to demand that your teammates actually fight. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

The only time I'll run and hide is if I'm totally disarmed and the match is close enough that my survival will ensure a tie at the very least. Otherwise, I can still contribute by scouting or acting as a dummy target.

[dario03]

Kjudoon, on 18 April 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

Oh give it up. More often hiding is because the pilot refuses to do something stupid and see if they can manage to live through a match. There's a certain pride aspect even in an 0-11 loss of being that one guy who wasn't killed. Other times, it's because pinheads screaming demands to come 'die like a man'. Yeah, that's gonna entice me out. If I'm the guy looking for that last guy, it's a challenge to me. I actually enjoy and respect it. Sometimes it ticks me off on Conquest because unless the caps are flipped and I might lose, I never lose respect for the guy who's SMART enough to know when to not take on hopeless odds.

If you are convinced hiding is evil and those people who do it should be banned, how about instead offering a third out: the ability for that last person to retreat and cede the victory to you. Right now, you run out of bounds, zero XP or Cbills as a penalty. Thanks, but no thanks. So I have a choice, sit there and let some jerk get his jollies off on blowing me to pieces in some freakish ritual... and yes, I've watched jerks deliberately strip components to enhance their Cbills. Again, pass. I don't want to do my impression of a carcass on the Serengeti. So start whining to PGI to give a retreat option so people who don't want to lose what they did in game can retreat without penalty. Maybe make it a skirmish option. But if you want this fixed, offer an alternative.

If you can't/won't play any other mech than the one you have there, you've no one else to blame but yourself, and no one is obligated to ruin his game to satisfy you. Demanding it is selfish.

This 'wait 8 minutes' garbage came to be with the very flawed skirmish system, lack of retreat option and no way to finish the game by capping. Those who complained about cap, got what they wanted, and all the inherant problems that go with it... and this is one. Demanding that someone stop hiding, walk to the firing squad and die is arrogant and selfish.

I got a better idea, how about a loss counts as a death. Then players won't need to run off and hide in a corner to protect their kdr or troll the other players.

Edited by dario03, 18 April 2014 - 01:47 PM.

[Roughneck45]

Sarlic, on 18 April 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Not in this game.

My KDR dropped in just a week from 2.7 to 1.65. I don't care about KDR. All due lacking teamwork. It has nothing to do with being 'good' or 'bad'.

I played this game alone for just shy of a year and was able to maintain a 4/1 KDR.

Your KDR dropped for the exact things you just stated, you don't care about it and you didn't work with your team.

Teams will affect your win/loss ratio a lot more than your KDR. You can't always salvage a victory when you lose the pug lottery, but you can often get a kill or two before you go down.

[Kubernetes]

Roughneck45, on 18 April 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

I played this game alone for just shy of a year and was able to maintain a 4/1 KDR.

Your KDR dropped for the exact things you just stated, you don't care about it and you didn't work with your team.

Teams will affect your win/loss ratio a lot more than your KDR. You can't always salvage a victory when you lose the pug lottery, but you can often get a kill or two before you go down.

Not just that, but if his KDR drops by 1 in a week it means he hasn't played many matches since the reset, that 2.7 was likely an outlier, and he's now regressing back to a more accurate KDR.

Heck, mine hit an absurd 17:1 at one point after the reset--just a crazy bit of luck after a handful of matches. Small sample sizes can give outsized impressions.

[Adiuvo]

Kjudoon, on 18 April 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

<snip>

There's no benefit in living through a match. If they at least gave you cbills or xp for it I'd understand your reasoning but since there isn't, the only conclusion is that you're trying to protect your KDR.

Going out of bounds has no drawbacks, so I'd consider that as valid of a retreat option as any. If you dislike the little +1 to your deaths, well, you lost the match?

I think demanding that 23 other people wait just so you can forgo a death is the most selfish thing here. Don't throw stones in glass houses, or whatever.

Anyways I'm curious now, what is your KDR if you're so concerned over one death?

[Warge]

I think that Damade Given/Damage Received Ratio tells more about pilot's skill than KDR...

[dario03]

Warge, on 18 April 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

I think that Damade Given/Damage Received Ratio tells more about pilot's skill than KDR...

Problem there is who did better the guy in a Atlas that did 900 damage and tanked 500 damage or the guy in the other Atlas that did 400 damage and died to a 36 point headshot.

No single stat can give you a accurate gauge of a player's skill. Actually even a lot of stats wouldn't quite do it since there are a lot of variables going on.

Edited by dario03, 18 April 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Kubernetes, on 18 April 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

Oh, I see, it's not selfish to make 23 people wait 8 minutes so you don't get one more D in your KDR, but it is selfish to demand that your teammates actually fight. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

The only time I'll run and hide is if I'm totally disarmed and the match is close enough that my survival will ensure a tie at the very least. Otherwise, I can still contribute by scouting or acting as a dummy target.

You can drop out any time if you''re dead. Otherwise, search better.

[Kjudoon]

Adiuvo, on 18 April 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

There's no benefit in living through a match.

Why should I give the 'benefit' of my death to someone else without making them work for it? Why should I humiliate myself for you? That's not only selfish, that's arrogant. You are not entitled to have me walk up and play stupid. You wanna kill me, find me. If I get you alone, I'll try and knock you off if you are alone. Don't like it? Play assault and just ignore the last guy to cap. Don't wanna do that? play conquest. Don't wanna do that... find another game. I hear Titanfall is fun.

I don't care about my KDR really other than as an indicator of how helpful I'm being to my team. My W/L is more important. I like my moral victories if I can't get the full victory. Surviving a game is a victory to me, and that's worth making you work for it.

Edited by Kjudoon, 18 April 2014 - 04:26 PM.

[dario03]

Hiding just so you can stay alive is not helping your team even if you do power up and fight one of the last guys after sitting around for 7 minutes. However you also don't need to run straight into the enemy. Circle around and try to pick off the damaged enemies, if you are fast and on conquest tease the caps to try to get them to split off (or this is the one mode that you could hide but you need to be close to winning on points so no hiding for half a match), shoot them in the back if they attack your base on assault, do something, anything. Actively playing the game is actually a rule and you can come back to win matches when down by a lot. I've seen skirmish and assault wins pulled out while being down 7 to 1.

[Wolfways]

Roland, on 18 April 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

As I already pointed out, players with good KDR's don't achieve them by trying to pad them. They are simply a natural result of being a competent pilot. If you are good, your KDR is high. That's just how it works.


All good players have a reasonably high KDR, and players with a KDR under 1 are pretty much all below average. There is no situation in which a good pilot will maintain a KDR below 1. Certainly there may be individual games where that happens, but if your lifetime KDR is less than 1, it means you die more often then you kill mechs, which means you are not contributing to your team's effectiveness as much as you should. Dying does not help your team, ever. Killing mechs always helps your team.


This isn't to say that you must have an insanely high KDR to be good... But every good player has a positive KDR.



Players with positive KDR's contribute more to their team than players with negative KDR's.
Bad players might not like to hear that, but it's a fact, and the sooner they come to terms with it the sooner they can improve.

What about players who's playstyle keeps their KDR low?

My KDR in my RVN-3L is low and i'm proud of that. It isn't because i suck (i might, no idea) but because i play the mech as it was designed, to avoid fights.
I scout (even if PGI make that as hard as possible for me), I use my ECM to cover teammates and counter enemy ECM. I use TAG/NARC to help out teammates with missiles.
I'll use my lasers and SRM's when i can but most of the time i'm trying to avoid becoming a target, or even seen by the enemy.

If i end up as the last mech on my team still alive and we're winning i'll hide if i need to. If we're losing i'll go out fighting (which usually doesn't take long as my 3L isn't built for fighting )

[Mycrus]

Eglar, on 17 April 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

#RemovEeloOrMakeItPublic

Make it public!

[Mordin Ashe]

Wolfways, on 18 April 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

What about players who's playstyle keeps their KDR low?

My KDR in my RVN-3L is low and i'm proud of that. It isn't because i suck (i might, no idea) but because i play the mech as it was designed, to avoid fights.
I scout (even if PGI make that as hard as possible for me), I use my ECM to cover teammates and counter enemy ECM. I use TAG/NARC to help out teammates with missiles.
I'll use my lasers and SRM's when i can but most of the time i'm trying to avoid becoming a target, or even seen by the enemy.

If i end up as the last mech on my team still alive and we're winning i'll hide if i need to. If we're losing i'll go out fighting (which usually doesn't take long as my 3L isn't built for fighting )

Well, yes. From what you wrote, you really do suck. You may call it intentional but if the 3L would be designed to avoid combat, why does it have weapons? Plus I am not sure whether what you are doing isn't breaking any rules and if it's not, it is very close to it.
"Avoiding the combat" my ass, the 3L is master of "cloak and dagger" in MWO. SRMs and MLs and you can harass anything heavier than you quite well. ECM is nice thing but it must be used, and if you stay back and provide ECM to your team" you actually hurt your team by not being in front and hurting your enemy with ECM.
I am sorry, but it seems you have some misconceptions about the game. If that is where your disconcent with KDR comes from, we may have found an answer.

[Ravnis]

Mordin Ashe, on 18 April 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Well, yes. From what you wrote, you really do suck. You may call it intentional but if the 3L would be designed to avoid combat, why does it have weapons? Plus I am not sure whether what you are doing isn't breaking any rules and if it's not, it is very close to it.
"Avoiding the combat" my ass, the 3L is master of "cloak and dagger" in MWO. SRMs and MLs and you can harass anything heavier than you quite well. ECM is nice thing but it must be used, and if you stay back and provide ECM to your team" you actually hurt your team by not being in front and hurting your enemy with ECM.
I am sorry, but it seems you have some misconceptions about the game. If that is where your disconcent with KDR comes from, we may have found an answer.

That's not entirely true. I cloak my team a lot on my 3L when we don't have a Fatlas DDC to do it. Many times, if i don't it's almost and instant loss on maps like Caustic to LRM's. But i also get out there and have to work twice or thrice as hard to make up the difference later. Numerous times I have done this for over 5 minutes and still racked out 300+ damage and a kill or two. Mind you I don't have a bad K:D on my 3L. But i don't see it as a bad thing to provide ECM cover for your team when it's needed. However, you have to know when it's needed and when it's not, and you also still have to try and pull your weight.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Roland, on 17 April 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

Better players have higher KDR's... Because it turns out, that if you're good and you are able to deal precise damage where you want... then you get more kills.

If you have a KDR less than 1, it means you are bad.

not really, KDR just shows how good/lucky you are at STEALING kills/getting that last shot in.

because someone can get alot of kills by stealing them, doing massive damage and just slugging mechs out, or being extremely skillful and pinpoint someone down (with less then 80 damage for example. someone that just "executes" you and isn't out to milk your mech for damage).

also lights can conceivably kill you with less then 50 damage in any mech by just being really good at "knifing" you from behind.

so is someone that gets 5 kills but needs 600+ damage to do it better or worse then a player that gets 5 kills under 400 damage because he just puts you down rather then cripples then disarms you?

is the light that gets 5 kills and less then 300 damage good or bad compared to a light that gets 300+ damage and 10+ assists?

really KDR means nothing for these reasons. some pilots get alot of kills, but there are many ways to pad your kill count. hence why "stat whores" are really just ego padding and e-peen. lol

sry but its the truth

Edited by Mellifluer, 18 April 2014 - 08:53 PM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Mordin Ashe, on 18 April 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Well, yes. From what you wrote, you really do suck. You may call it intentional but if the 3L would be designed to avoid combat, why does it have weapons? Plus I am not sure whether what you are doing isn't breaking any rules and if it's not, it is very close to it.
"Avoiding the combat" my ass, the 3L is master of "cloak and dagger" in MWO. SRMs and MLs and you can harass anything heavier than you quite well. ECM is nice thing but it must be used, and if you stay back and provide ECM to your team" you actually hurt your team by not being in front and hurting your enemy with ECM.
I am sorry, but it seems you have some misconceptions about the game. If that is where your disconcent with KDR comes from, we may have found an answer.

sry but it is a lights job to be an ecm for the team sometime. like if you drop and you notice that you have 4 lights on your side, its probably a wise idea to let the enemy light horde "leroy" into your team and to have your lights right there to take them down and prevent any of your big mechs from getting "circled to death".

the light is supposed to scout but by no means is a light supposed to dance for your entire team in front of 4+ front load 40+ pinpoint mechs. your team is supposed to be enough of a threat that the enemy basically ignores your lights and this lets the lights do some serious knifing.

but really lights shouldn't make a habit of "dancing" in front of more then 3-4 enemy's at any time, and if even ONE of those enemy's is the kind that "hits those lights straight and true" you should never dance in front of that guy.

unless you can get the drop on good shot\pilot as a light are much better off finding someone that cant hit you so you can milk him and distract him from helping his team.

[Wolfways]

Mordin Ashe, on 18 April 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Well, yes. From what you wrote, you really do suck. You may call it intentional but if the 3L would be designed to avoid combat, why does it have weapons? Plus I am not sure whether what you are doing isn't breaking any rules and if it's not, it is very close to it.
"Avoiding the combat" my ass, the 3L is master of "cloak and dagger" in MWO. SRMs and MLs and you can harass anything heavier than you quite well. ECM is nice thing but it must be used, and if you stay back and provide ECM to your team" you actually hurt your team by not being in front and hurting your enemy with ECM.
I am sorry, but it seems you have some misconceptions about the game. If that is where your disconcent with KDR comes from, we may have found an answer.

I'm not saying i run to the edge of the map and hide. I'd never do that.
If my team needs ECM cover that's where i'll be. If they don't need cover and the enemy has ECM then i'll be there instead to counter the enemy ECM.

The discontent with KDR isn't because mine is low. I have KDR's over 2 in other mechs, but when i'm in my Raven i don't see my job as getting kills, but rather helping my teammates get kills easier or help them survive better.

Also, here's a couple of quotes from Sarna:
"The Raven's job is first and foremost to provide electronic warfare and countermeasure support to other units; any mission in which the 'Mech is forced into a combat role is seen as a failure."

"The Raven carries a small weapons array that is nevertheless respectable for its size. The primary weapons on board the Raven are a pair of Ceres Arms Medium Lasers. These are backed up by a Harpoon-6 SRM-6 to finish off any enemy units that it does engage. Generally, the Raven is kept out of direct firefights though, as it is more valuable as a recon or electronics warfare asset than as a front line combat 'Mech."

I know killing is the only "role" in MWO, but i'm still going to try to play my mechs in the roles that they were intended to fill.

[Hexenhammer]

I don't always have a KDR but when I do it gets wiped.




On a less serious note, there is no telling what goes through people's brains when they play this or any other multiplayer game.

Some people are so focused on KDR that anything that jeopardizes it is perceived as a threat to them and their identity. Me? If I see a red mech in front of me I'm gonna shoot it. So word to the wise. Don't paint your mechs red.

Edited by Hexenhammer, 18 April 2014 - 09:20 PM.