471 replies to this topic

[hercules1981]

Wolfways, on 19 April 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

If it's a solo game who are you stealing the kill from?


And these players do it all by themselves without the team helping? Plus it's hard to goalsteal(?) when there's only one ball

What I'm trying to say is these players I'm talking about r awesome. So because of this there stats r awesome and now this is the big thing here, they make everyone else around them better. So if I had a team of such players as this I would win all the dam time same goes for mwo. Yeah I know u can kill steal but over thoudsands of games u can't tell me some one with a kdr of over 3 is always lucky and in the right spot to get the kill. No they put themself in a good position by choice cause they now where to go when. My comparison to basketball May be a little strange but it's the only sport I have played and watched over the years so forgive for that. Great skilled players have great stats at least in real world sports.
I would how ever like to c an assist to death ratio as well.

Edited by hercules1981, 19 April 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

hercules1981, on 19 April 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

What I'm trying to say is these players I'm talking about r awesome. So because of this there stats r awesome and now this is the big thing here, they make everyone else around them better. So if I had a team of such players as this I would win all the dam time same goes for mwo. Yeah I know u can kill steal but over thoudsands of games u can't tell me some one with a kdr of over 3 is always lucky and in the right spot to get the kill. No they put themself in a good position by choice cause they now where to go when. My comparison to basketball May be a little strange but it's the only sport I have played and watched over the years so forgive for that. Great skilled players have great stats at least in real world sports.
I would how ever like to c an assist to death ratio as well.

Great skill doesn't always make one a better team player, thus doesn't always enhance the skill of those around them. Otherwise, the Yankees would win the World Series every year.

I'll take a team of competent players able to actually play nicely with each other, than a team of divas who are too impressed with themselves. Divas work OK in Basketball, but that is because you only need coordinate 5 people. After all, by your analogy, Peyton Manning should have shredded the SeaHawks, or Calvin Johnson Should Have the Lions in the playoffs every year.

Conversely, many players can pad their stats by hanging back and playing vulture and others try to be a solo rambo hero thus depriving their team of a vital member.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 April 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[hercules1981]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 April 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

Great skill doesn't always make one a better team player, thus doesn't always enhance the skill of those around them. Otherwise, the Yankees would win the World Series every year.

I'll take a team of competent players able to actually play nicely with each other, than a team of divas who are too impressed with themselves. Divas work OK in Basketball, but that is because you only need coordinate 5 people. After all, by your analogy, Peyton Manning should have shredded the SeaHawks, or Calvin Johnson Should Have the Lions in the playoffs every year.

Conversely, many players can pad their stats by hanging back and playing vulture and others try to be a solo rambo hero thus depriving their team of a vital member.

I guess I agree to disagree man, bball really does differ a lot from other sports because there is only 5 on the court at a time thus one or 2 players that r at the top of the game can out shine 5 average dudes on the other side. Being one fifth the team makes a big difference if u r really good aside from mwo being only one twelfth the team. Although I would still say great players of any kind will make others around them a bit better and that margin depends but holds true in any game I feel but a high kdr determining this I guess I'm not sure.

Edited by hercules1981, 19 April 2014 - 12:35 PM.

[Kubernetes]

Ugh, can we get off the "kill stealing" nonsense? I've never seen a player hold off on shooting so he can deliver a kill shot. 9/10 players are pumping out as much damage as fast as possible and even going into heat shutdown to do it.

Also your KDR might suffer or benefit from a string of kill steals, but over time it evens out. I've had teammates "steal kills" from me. BFD. I'm sure I've done the same just as much. If you are accurately putting damage into a target, you'll get your share of kills. If you have thousands of matches under your belt, the only way kill steals have affected your KDR is if you're really bad at shooting straight.

Also, KDR is just one metric, nothing more. WLR is another. What do they mean? That's up for debate, but they're certainly not "meaningless." There aren't too many other measurables out there aside from damage (and assists). If KDR isn't meaningful, what metric is meaningful? A bald claim that "I'm a great team player!"?

[Bishop Steiner]

Kubernetes, on 19 April 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

stuff

sorry bro, I have frequently watched players (meaning, I'm dead and spectating) hide behind a building, until a mech was about to go down, then scoot out and start shooting.

And a "killsteal" doesn't have to be something so blatant. I have taken a single shot, with an ac5, etc, on a retreating mech just hoping for a quick hit, and got the kill. Did I "earn" that kill? Nope, I stole it, even if it was not intentional.

KDr is easily gamed. So that yes, there are players with "unearned" KDr.

So is it meaningless? Well it certainly wouldn't hold up as evidence in a court of law as there are too many variables and loopholes and exploits.

The problem is that the stats we have are so broad and generic as to mean nothing. Without substantially mor ein depth stats, all pointing to the KDr IS doing is making a bald claim that "I'm a great team player!"

I use KDr as an idea if I am being effective in a mech, but that is because I don't worry about how it lines up with other players. I compare my KDr against my KDr in other mechs, and that is about it.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 April 2014 - 02:07 PM.

[Kubernetes]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 April 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

sorry bro, I have frequently watched players (meaning, I'm dead and spectating) hide behind a building, until a mech was about to go down, then scoot out and start shooting.

Yeesh, I hope you berated the guy. I do think it's possible to game KDR (say, by being a vulture), but most of those methods will negatively impact WLR. (A vulture, for instance, might pick up some easy kills, but in the long term he's costing his team matches; it's also just as likely that he'll get steamrolled 6 vs 1 because he left his team hanging.)

Quote

And a "killsteal" doesn't have to be something so blatant. I have taken a single shot, with an ac5, etc, on a retreating mech just hoping for a quick hit, and got the kill. Did I "earn" that kill? Nope, I stole it, even if it was not intentional.

I just don't have a problem with that. You were legitimately shooting at the enemy and "earned" that kill because you hit him. That happened to me twice the other day, where a mech runs in front of me and I one-shot him because his armor is gone. I suppose they were kill steals, but at the same time I had kills "stolen" from me in the very same match. Again, if you play enough matches then kill stealing evens out.

KDr is easily gamed. So that yes, there are players with "unearned" KDr.

Quote

I use KDr as an idea if I am being effective in a mech, but that is because I don't worry about how it lines up with other players. I compare my KDr against my KDr in other mechs, and that is about it.

Pretty much the same here. If my KDR in a particular chassis is very low it suggests that I need to reconsider my build or playstyle. It's also a useful measure of one's individual improvement in this game. It does become meaningless if you game it or play specifically with a mind toward improving KDR.

[Roland]

Quote

So your saying every class and every mech should have a positive KDR? What about builds specifcally designed to support the team? ----> Does high KDR still counts? No. The amount giving of assist does. Not a kill.

Yes.
No matter what you are doing, you should always have a positive k/d ratio.

buy here is absolutely no role which is effectively served by having you die more often than you kill enemies.

Even in roles not focused on heavy damage, you should still die less than you kill enemy mechs.

Edited by Roland, 19 April 2014 - 05:36 PM.

[Abivard]

KDR by itself doesn't really reliably tell you much about the player.

Just giving a little thought to that and why it would be true should make you think of at least a couple reasons why that is.

The player always premades in mastered mechs with full modules, and the new player mastering new mechs. Both are examples of why a player may have a high or low KDR. In point of fact that latter almost always applied to the former as well at one point in time.

What is really need is more public display of more stats, or the elimination of KDR and the kill shot award itself.

I have seen more than one player with a very high KDR who was not a very good fighter, but an excellent exploiter of his teammates. We all know the type, they hang back looking for those almost on the edge of death, the ones who will not shoot if they cant get the kill so they don't call attention to themselves.

The reverse is true as well, I know some players with low KDR's who are often the MVP on the team and directly responsible for their team winning.

Many times who gets the kill shot is rather arbitrary, when 4 or more mechs are all focusing down on a single target and moving on to the next target etc... but often you will see the same player get credit every time for the kill.

So... until and unless you play with someone more than a few times, what they say their KDR is or isn't doesn't really say much about them as players. So why worry about it.

[Faith McCarron]

KDR isn't everything, but it does have it's place. There are some basic conclusions you can draw from someone's kdr. While individual match kdr doesn't really mean all that much, kdr over time does. If you have a sub-1.00 kdr, you're a pretty bad player. Either you are getting ganged up on early (meaning you are not putting yourself in a good position), or you are flat out losing one-on-one battles more often than you are winning them, which should not happen.

This is true across roles.If you're a light scout/raider, you should be eating up missile boats and Fatlases, as well as at last breaking even against enemy scouts. If you're a sniper, you should be using cover and dropping guys before getting dropped. If you're a lurmboat, well, you're playing easy-mode ad should be dropping guys with impunity.

[Wolfways]

Game mode also has an impact on KDR.
In say assault, if your team loses you are going to die. In conquest your team can lose by resources meaning you might not die.

There are too many variables that go into how well you do. The mech you use, the weapons, being in a premade, if your teammates just happen to save you from being killed...
My mechs are all as close to stock as possible while still being viable in MWO (they all have stock weapons). My CPLT-K2 and JM6-S both have over 2 KDR even though most players would say those builds suck.
My RVN-3L doesn't run at 150kph and like many have said about the current plan for Clan mechs, a slow light is DOA. But i'm playing to have fun, and as long as PGI give my 3L nothing to do but fight it will always have a low KDR.
But then, i play for fun, and a fun game doesn't depend on winning

[Roland]

Why do you keep citing your recall 3l as an example of a mech with a low k/d ratio? For a long time, it was the undisputed king of the lights. Even now it's still solid. There is no reason for your 3l to have a k/d less than one.

[Spades Kincaid]

Roland, on 19 April 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

Why do you keep citing your recall 3l as an example of a mech with a low k/d ratio? For a long time, it was the undisputed king of the lights. Even now it's still solid. There is no reason for your 3l to have a k/d less than one.

I think you're missing the point.

He's attempting to play his 3L in a more traditional scouting/EW role. You know, one of those things MWO was supposed to support and have? Now you may dispute the wisdom of attempting to do so in a game which isn't supporting or rewarding it very well, but you can't dismiss the impact that choice will have on his KDR.

For example. He could be quite capable of having a KDR of 1+ with the 3L, if he was outfitting it strictly for individual combat. The way you are talking about it once being 'king of the lights'.

But, if he's putting on a TAG, NARC, 1-2 tons of ammo for the NARC. BAP even if it's not benefiting his personal weapons, etc. Then yes, it's definitely negatively impacting his personal KDR in that mech. Quite possibly pushing his KDR under 1, when it would otherwise be above 1. Because he's sacrificed his ability to kill, for systems he hopes will help his teammates kill.

His KDR is not truly representative of what his potential skill in combat with the 3L is, or of his performance benefit to his team. Because his chosen contribution is not all about his own killing power. Crazy concept for some people, I know.

[AlmightyAeng]

Spades Kincaid, on 19 April 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

Because he's sacrificed his ability to kill, for systems he hopes will help his teammates kill.

Sacrificing the "ability to kill" for the "hopes that you're helping someone else to kill" seems like a really poor trade...when the game is about killing.

I have rarely, if ever, seen a person who was a bad pilot getting kill after kill after kill in a match. When I'm playing and I have a target that I've gotten down to 'cherry red' I WANT my teammates around me to be shooting them, too. The faster that mech dies, the fast the enemy loses firepower. Ganging up on weak mechs to kill them quickly is the obvious and best way to secure a win for your team.

It's not selfish. It's smart.

[Wolfways]

Spades Kincaid, on 19 April 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

I think you're missing the point.

He's attempting to play his 3L in a more traditional scouting/EW role. You know, one of those things MWO was supposed to support and have? Now you may dispute the wisdom of attempting to do so in a game which isn't supporting or rewarding it very well, but you can't dismiss the impact that choice will have on his KDR.

For example. He could be quite capable of having a KDR of 1+ with the 3L, if he was outfitting it strictly for individual combat. The way you are talking about it once being 'king of the lights'.

But, if he's putting on a TAG, NARC, 1-2 tons of ammo for the NARC. BAP even if it's not benefiting his personal weapons, etc. Then yes, it's definitely negatively impacting his personal KDR in that mech. Quite possibly pushing his KDR under 1, when it would otherwise be above 1. Because he's sacrificed his ability to kill, for systems he hopes will help his teammates kill.

His KDR is not truly representative of what his potential skill in combat with the 3L is, or of his performance benefit to his team. Because his chosen contribution is not all about his own killing power. Crazy concept for some people, I know.

This.
Or in other words, i play Battletech (even if you call it Mechwarrior it's still Battletech), not rock'em sock'em robots.
Even if the game doesn't have role warfare (like PGI said there would be. C'mon PGI!) i will still try to play my mechs in the role they were intended.

[Wolfways]

Ghost Badger, on 19 April 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

I have rarely, if ever, seen a person who was a bad pilot getting kill after kill after kill in a match.

So i'm helping those bad players by helping them live longer (ECM cover) or helping those with missiles to kill better (TAG/NARC).
Think of a it as a community service

[Eglar]

Wolfways, on 19 April 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

But i'm playing to have fun, and as long as PGI give my 3L nothing to do but fight it will always have a low KDR.
But then, i play for fun, and a fun game doesn't depend on winning

Wha..... my 3L has a k/d of 11.50 and w/l of 5.50 and regardless of what your mech is meant for weather for "fun" or for "superseriousbuissness" the mechbuild you field also reflects your skill in mech-buillding and meta-awareness aswell. If you bring in a non-optimized build into the game, you are hurting your team along with getting a low k/d. And rememeber, as long as you stay alive your k/d will still go up.
A typical bad build( bad meta-awareness) would be:

Spades Kincaid, on 19 April 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

A raven 3L TAG, NARC, 1-2 tons of ammo for the NARC. BAP

Spoiler

-Tag is "ok" but think about what you are giving up on with 1 ton could have been a DHS or MLas
If you expect to just sit there and tag someone within 750m range while having ecm covering you, don't be suprised if you get 1shot.

-Narc is just bad, It doesn't break ecm unless on a ecm mech and requires you to be within closer range to fire it. The invested tonnage doesn't outweight it's usefullness.

-You can spot without tag/narc. Unless there's ecm.

- Baps won't help you if you equip an ecm yourself and have 0 lock-on weapons

- You probably have ECM to counter ECM.

- if you really want to contribute
Bring an UAV
Bring Adv. Sensors
Bring Adv. Targeting Decay

- Direct Damage > Spotting assists in most circumstances.

- If you want to cover your team with ECM pick long range weapons over short range weapons so you can still contribute damage while staying with the main group.

Maybe you should try out something like this.

Seeing one of those 1tag+erll spdiers paired with 3 LRM boats on the enemy team makes me smile each time. Unfortunately you don't see them too often in higher elo brackets.

Edited by Eglar, 19 April 2014 - 08:13 PM.

[Spades Kincaid]

Ghost Badger, on 19 April 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

Sacrificing the "ability to kill" for the "hopes that you're helping someone else to kill" seems like a really poor trade...when the game is about killing.

I have rarely, if ever, seen a person who was a bad pilot getting kill after kill after kill in a match. When I'm playing and I have a target that I've gotten down to 'cherry red' I WANT my teammates around me to be shooting them, too. The faster that mech dies, the fast the enemy loses firepower. Ganging up on weak mechs to kill them quickly is the obvious and best way to secure a win for your team.

It's not selfish. It's smart.

If you're PUG'ing yes, it often can end up a poor trade. You're largely dependent upon having LRM's on your team. And how many of them you have directly affects how much impact you have. That said, when you do hit on one, the potential impact you can have on the result of the battle is actually significantly greater than adding another Mlaser and SRM6 (or streaks) to your own firepower.

The latter part has nothing to do with the point being made.

I'm not arguing that KDR isn't a general indicator of pilot skill. I agree it is. Nor am I saying I don't want my teammates shooting too, or that anyone is being selfish for ganging up on enemy mechs. Where in the world did you pull that from my post?

My point was simply illustrating what he was doing and saying about it's affect on his KDR in the 3L was valid. Other things besides pure piloting skill can and do impact your KDR. It's an indicator, it's not always an accurate indicator in every situation.

[Wolfways]

Eglar, on 19 April 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

Wha..... my 3L has a k/d of 11.50 and w/l of 5.50 and regardless of what your mech is meant for weather for "fun" or for "superseriousbuissness" the mechbuild you field also reflects your skill in mech-buillding and meta-awareness aswell. If you bring in a non-optimized build into the game, you are hurting your team along with getting a low k/d. And rememeber, as long as you stay alive your k/d will still go up.
A typical bad build( bad meta-awareness) would be:

Spoiler

-Tag is "ok" but think about what you are giving up on with 1 ton could have been a DHS or MLas
If you expect to just sit there and tag someone within 750m range while having ecm covering you, don't be suprised if you get 1shot.

-Narc is just bad, It doesn't break ecm unless on a ecm mech and requires you to be within closer range to fire it. The invested tonnage doesn't outweight it's usefullness.

-You can spot without tag/narc. Unless there's ecm.

- Baps won't help you if you equip an ecm yourself and have 0 lock-on targets

- You probably have ECM to counter ECM.

- if you really want to contribute
Bring an UAV
Bring Adv. Sensors
Bring Adv. Targeting Decay

- Direct Damage > Spotting assists in most circumstances.

- If you want to cover your team with ECM pick long range weapons over short range weapons so you can still contribute damage while staying with the main group.

Maybe you should try out something like this.

Seeing one of those 1tag+erll spdiers paired with 3 LRM boats on the enemy team makes me smile each time. Unfortunately you don't see them too often in higher elo brackets.

My approach to the meta is ignore it.
I'm sure many "meta-players" would be horrified to find that all my mechs are buy mech>fit Endo if possible>add ammo>add DHS>fit engine. That's it. All of them have stock weapons and my 3L has all the stock gear (ECM, TAG, NARC, etc.).
I have no problem killing mechs in my CPLT-K2 or JM6-S because they were build for combat (even if the Jager is also an AA mech) but the RVN-3L was not built for combat, it was built to support it's "team" so that's how i'll play it.

I guess if you don't like how i play then you can hope that if we're ever on the same team that i'm in my K2 or JM6-S

[Spades Kincaid]

Eglar, on 19 April 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

Wha..... my 3L has a k/d of 11.50 and w/l of 5.50 and regardless of what your mech is meant for weather for "fun" or for "superseriousbuissness" the mechbuild you field also reflects your skill in mech-buillding and meta-awareness aswell. If you bring in a non-optimized build into the game, you are hurting your team along with getting a low k/d. And rememeber, as long as you stay alive your k/d will still go up.
A typical bad build( bad meta-awareness) would be:



Seeing one of those 1tag+erll spdiers paired with 3 LRM boats on the enemy team makes me smile each time. Unfortunately you don't see them too often in higher elo brackets.

It's not a case of bad meta awareness or skill in mech-building. I'm perfectly aware of what the meta is and how to build a 3L for combat. That's not some super secret talent. Get over yourself.

Yes, I have done the same thing as he does in my 3L now and then. Why? Because it's fun to me. It's worth it to possibly be a bit gimped for a few games, to have a few where I can have a major impact on the battle without conforming to the 'rules of meta'. Or being focused on my personal damage, which is an even greater stretch of heresy than just non-meta. To me it's a shame the game doesn't allow a greater variety of that kind of play to shine.

I also run it with 2 ERLarge, or a more traditional combat build. I like to play around, I like to do different things. I like to experiment. I'm always giving full effort within that to helping my team. When/if CW comes along you can bet I'll devote my mech choice and build to what's best for the rest any unit I may be in. Until then, other than giving you my full effort as a PUG teammate, you quite frankly don't matter. I'm not obligated to play meta for you sorry. I'm obligated to doing what I find fun.

So yeah. my PUG'ing isn't 'superseriousbusiness', it's for fun, my fun. And yes that fun has nothing to do with whether I know what the meta is, or how to build a mech to best fit it. Sorry try again.

[Wolfways]

My fun IS superseriousbusiness!