471 replies to this topic

[Captain Stiffy]

Saying "get rid of KDR" is like saying "get rid of batting averages".

Saying that it doesn't exist (or that it shouldn't) can't ever make it go away. Not ever.

What is the point of this thread? What action does the OP expect them to take? Simply stop reporting all stats? In an FPS?

[Sarlic]

Roland, on 18 April 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

I played competitively as part of an extremely successful unit in Mechwarrior 4 for the better part of a decade, so I'm quite familiar with the most nuanced aspects of team play.

As I already pointed out, players with good KDR's don't achieve them by trying to pad them. They are simply a natural result of being a competent pilot. If you are good, your KDR is high. That's just how it works. #1
And if you are a good pilot, then you are an asset to your team. #2

This is not MWO 4. I have played MWO 4 aswell, but that does not say anything, why mentoining it? This game is in my eyes totally different.

I agree on line #2. But not on line #1. You are still falling back on KDR high = Good player. As you know, every mech in this game has different loadouts and every pilot has his different playstyles. When a medium is on a low health Atlas and a medium pops in and 'takes' the kill. Jenner gets the assist and not the kill granted. Medium got the kill. Over 5 matches the pilot of the Jenner gets about the same amount of assists and almost no kills. A few maybe. But hey; the Jenner is a good scouter. He scouts every targets, saying movement and forth.

Unfortunatly the pilot from the Jenner is a KDR hunter. According to your 'logic' High KDR= Good player, the Jenner pilot needs to adjust either his playstyle to get more kills, thus eventually will be lacking support to the team.

Quote

No, you are wrong.
All good players have a reasonably high KDR, and players with a KDR under 1 are pretty much all below average. There is no situation in which a good pilot will maintain a KDR below 1. Certainly there may be individual games where that happens, but if your lifetime KDR is less than 1, it means you die more often then you kill mechs, which means you are not contributing to your team's effectiveness as much as you should. Dying does not help your team, ever. Killing mechs always helps your team.

This isn't to say that you must have an insanely high KDR to be good... But every good player has a positive KDR.

So your saying every class and every mech should have a positive KDR? What about builds specifcally designed to support the team? ----> Does high KDR still counts? No. The amount giving of assist does. Not a kill.

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Players with positive KDR's contribute more to their team than players with negative KDR's.
Bad players might not like to hear that, but it's a fact, and the sooner they come to terms with it the sooner they can improve

I agree. But when learning new tactics or a different playstyle, it should not waste the support of supporting a team.

Quote

Again, good players aren't "focused on KDR".
People with high KDR's don't actually focus on their KDR's. They focus on killing mechs and not dying.
And that's how you win mechwarrior. By killing the enemies before they can kill you.

Two things: We have pilots who are build for the kill and we have pilots who are build for support. That's a huge difference.

Quote

Good teamplay is actually BENEFICIAL to your KDR... Because if your whole team dies, you are likely to die as well. When your whole team is alive, they are giving your enemies more targets, making you less likely to die.. They are hurting the enemy and making it harder for them to defend themselves, meaning it'll be easier for you to get kills.

Again: Teamplay is the key to gain victory. Teamplay is not to gain KDR.

Quote

The idea that KDR is somehow orthogonal to teamwork is nonsensical, and only spouted by people who have no idea how the game works... Good teamwork leads to high KDR's.

Again: Teamplay leads for some players to a higher KDR. You can't predict the outcome of each match.

Quote

Put a team of players with positive KDR's up against a team of players with negative KDR's, and they will crush them... pretty much every single time.

Most likley. Likely. The team is nothing without teamplay. What will happen when you put two teams together. One with KDRs and one with Assists.

Again: Your fact a high KDR=Good player does NOT makes you a good player in this game! It means nothing. Each pilot and each mech have different playstyles. ---> Teamplay, your flexibilty and willing of support is the key to succes and fun.

Mordin Ashe, on 18 April 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Sorry but rarely sacrificing myself is a good way to help my team. It may have been in past but now when capping is rare it doesn't mean much. Doing damage and killing enemies helps though :-)
And yes, players with higher KDR are better players those with low KDR, and that is a fact. They may not focus on it, they may not work on it intentionally but the better player the higher KDR he has.['/quote]
Maybe in other games (shooters) its a fact. But again: not in this game! In Beta it was pretty common to sacrifice (depending on situation).

I need to clear up sacrifice. I am not that very good at english. Apologies.
What if you say a lance is fencing off some time to a larger group of 8. While your other friendly lance goes around the corner and flank them from behind. While they're at; a Atlas of the first lance is taking the lead, pushing through while the enemy is disctract and focused on the Atlas. Totally unexpected the second friendly lance from behind are doing some marvelous damage resulting the enemy getting crushed. Unfortunatly the Atlas is heavily damaged and one single enemy still manage to kill the pilot of the Atlas, but it was pure benefical for the team. Archieved victory.

Atlas did up to 4-7 assists, pinpoint 400+ damage but no kills.

Quote

EDIT: What is so good about sacrificing anyway? Reminds me of an old Kurita doctrine. It didn't work for them back then and it doesn't work now. Sacrificing means -1 friendly Mech for little to no gain. Ferocious defense of own life, that may make an impact. But sacrificing? Isn't it more like people say "I sacrificed myself for the team" to cover that they failed to get into proper position and got killed from behind? I've never heard any good player talking about sacrifices. It may be my bad to get proper information but good players rarely perform suicidal acts.

See above.

Edited by Sarlic, 18 April 2014 - 11:11 PM.

[Mordin Ashe]

Sarlic, on 18 April 2014 - 11:06 PM, said:

Again: Your fact a high KDR=Good player does NOT makes you a good player in this game! It means nothing. Each pilot and each mech have different playstyles. ---> Teamplay, your flexibilty and willing of support is the key to succes and fun.

Playstyles is the most common work used against KDR. And also the most wrong. Why? While everyone chooses to do things differently, all those playstyles lead to doing damage and killing enemies. You may choose your path, but all leads to one place and that has destroyed enemies in it. Good players are capable of performins their playstyle longer, but again, only to one end and that end is damaging/killing enemies. Doing your playstyle poorly isn't a playstyle, it is poor playing and KDR can help to point out that behavior. Yes, teamplay, flexibility and willing to support is important, but why? Exactly, to kill red triangles.
If one day there will be Mechs that will provide any meaningfull help in information warfare (I don't count that on/off switch called ECM we have now), once something like repairing and in-game rearm is introduced then yes, then we may say that people have playstyles not focused on damage and KDR isn't a good stats. But right now, everything we have in game is related to damage or is indirectly connected to doing damage. And since more damage => more kills, albeit it is not always a linear function, KDR has a place in current environment.

[Rex Budman]

I somewhat agree with the want to remove KDR. In the spirit of the game it is indeed a useless statistic that is merely there to pander to ones ego.

Before anyone swoops down on this post to give me the business, I ask that before doing so you analyze the intention of the game which in my opinion is Team Warfare.

A player with higher damage and no kills can be seen as someone who embodies the spirit of the game in which his enthusiasm and commitment to assisting his team wholeheartedly trumps a player in which merely mopped up a few cored mechs with a shot or two, basically riding off the hard work of others.

In short, KDR is arbitrary but can be fun for some. Leave it in!

[Mystere]

I look at kills only when I roll out specifically to score kills. KDR in this case is relevant.

When I roll out to scout, I do not look at kills, even if I do end up killing targets of opportunity. KDR in this case is irrelevant.

But I always roll out for the win.

[Sarlic]

Mordin Ashe, on 18 April 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

Playstyles is the most common work used against KDR. And also the most wrong. Why? While everyone chooses to do things differently, all those playstyles lead to doing damage and killing enemies. You may choose your path, but all leads to one place and that has destroyed enemies in it. Good players are capable of performins their playstyle longer, but again, only to one end and that end is damaging/killing enemies. Doing your playstyle poorly isn't a playstyle, it is poor playing and KDR can help to point out that behavior. Yes, teamplay, flexibility and willing to support is important, but why? Exactly, to kill red triangles.
If one day there will be Mechs that will provide any meaningfull help in information warfare (I don't count that on/off switch called ECM we have now), once something like repairing and in-game rearm is introduced then yes, then we may say that people have playstyles not focused on damage and KDR isn't a good stats. But right now, everything we have in game is related to damage or is indirectly connected to doing damage. And since more damage => more kills, albeit it is not always a linear function, KDR has a place in current environment.

If so. What are the odds out of 12 who plays 'poorly'? You cant tell me because you, and i dont know.
Again: Teamplay, your flexibilty and willing of support is the key to succes and fun ---> Asissting roles even when your 'poor'.
Again: KDR does not mean anyhting in this game. Its not hard to understand that this game is not about high KDR = good player.

[Mordin Ashe]

Sarlic, on 19 April 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

Again: Teamplay, your flexibilty and willing of support is the key to succes and fun ---> Asissting roles even when your 'poor'.
Again: KDR does not mean anyhting in this game. Its not hard to understand that this game is not about high KDR = good player.

Yes, but if you do your teamplay, flexibility and willing of support right, you end up doing damage and getting kills. The game isn't about high KDR => good player, but good player => high KDR.

[Eglar]

[Abisha]

Kill death rate is bullshit, it only account how have the last kill hit. so doing a worthless stat.
if the kill go's to the guy doing most damage it makes sens, but not like this.

[Windsaw]

Question to those who defend KDR:
I pilot mostly lights, but mostly as a striker, although I also take out other lights from time to time.

When I leg another light an see that he isn't a serious threat anymore I leave him standing. Usually my group of heavies arrive soon an mop up. But I am a fast mech, I am no use hanging back when there is more important stuff for me to do elsewhere.
Tha same with unarmed heavies I see. I ignore them, they can't hurt anyone.

Question: Does that make me a worse player?
According to the statistics: yes!
There was a time when win loss was a meaningful statistic, but then they introduced ELO.

Lets face it: There is no number in this game that shows that you are a good player. But several that tell you that you should act more selfish. I ignore the statistics. Only that way I can become a better player.

(slight correction: The weapons statistics are of some value)

[Wolfways]

Windsaw, on 19 April 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

When I leg another light an see that he isn't a serious threat anymore I leave him standing. Usually my group of heavies arrive soon an mop up. But I am a fast mech, I am no use hanging back when there is more important stuff for me to do elsewhere.
Tha same with unarmed heavies I see. I ignore them, they can't hurt anyone.

I do that all the time. If he's got no weapons he's no threat (unless he goes to cap then he's fair game )
Imo those who hide when they think they'll lose are the same as those in CB who would shoot a mech that shut down and surrendered. More interested in KDR than winning.

[Gambyt]

Mellifluer, on 18 April 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

not really, KDR just shows how good/lucky you are at STEALING kills/getting that last shot in.

because someone can get alot of kills by stealing them, doing massive damage and just slugging mechs out, or being extremely skillful and pinpoint someone down (with less then 80 damage for example. someone that just "executes" you and isn't out to milk your mech for damage).

also lights can conceivably kill you with less then 50 damage in any mech by just being really good at "knifing" you from behind.

so is someone that gets 5 kills but needs 600+ damage to do it better or worse then a player that gets 5 kills under 400 damage because he just puts you down rather then cripples then disarms you?

is the light that gets 5 kills and less then 300 damage good or bad compared to a light that gets 300+ damage and 10+ assists?

really KDR means nothing for these reasons. some pilots get alot of kills, but there are many ways to pad your kill count. hence why "stat whores" are really just ego padding and e-peen. lol

sry but its the truth

Damn people realy need to remove the KILL STEALING concept from this game. Kill steal should only be used on solo games. My mechs can be used as an example for this. Ilya- average 500-600 damage per game 1-2 kills; Yen-lo-Wang average 150-300 gamage per game 4-5 kills. Following the idea of kill steal i am slacking while playing the Yen-lo-Wang, following the idea of the game i am not. Some mechs are finishers their only job/duty is to go in and finish a crippled mech, other mechs are the damage dealers their main job is to just wear down the enemy so that the finishers can do their job.

[Eglar]

Windsaw, on 19 April 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

Question to those who defend KDR:
I pilot mostly lights, but mostly as a striker, although I also take out other lights from time to time.

When I leg another light an see that he isn't a serious threat anymore I leave him standing. Usually my group of heavies arrive soon an mop up. But I am a fast mech, I am no use hanging back when there is more important stuff for me to do elsewhere.
Tha same with unarmed heavies I see. I ignore them, they can't hurt anyone.

Question: Does that make me a worse player?
According to the statistics: yes!
There was a time when win loss was a meaningful statistic, but then they introduced ELO.

Lets face it: There is no number in this game that shows that you are a good player. But several that tell you that you should act more selfish. I ignore the statistics. Only that way I can become a better player.

(slight correction: The weapons statistics are of some value)

Every decent player ignores nuded mechs, prioritizes targets and fights it out at the end of a match but it doesn't affect your K/D ratio as much as you would think in most cases. There are far more obvious arguments that stand pro-k/d ratio than the specific scenarios you've listed.

if you can get lots of kills you contribute to your team victory
9 out of 10 games are won by team annihilation
if you die, you did something wrong
if you win 10 matches in a row and died each match you're doing it wrong
if you think that a light should only scout, you're doing it wrong.
if you did 1000 damage and had 0 kills you're doing it wrong

[Windsaw]

Eglar, on 19 April 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

if you can get lots of kills you contribute to your team victory

Not necessarily. I've seen players collecting kills and at the same time ensuring the loss of the battle.

Eglar, on 19 April 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

9 out of 10 games are won by team annihilation

Irrelevant to the question. What is better: Killing one enemy yourself or helping your teammates killing three enemies?

Eglar, on 19 April 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

if you die, you did something wrong

Not true. Most times, yes, but an occasional suicide run can turn the tide in favor of your side. It just takes a good player to recognize when it makes sense and when not.

Eglar, on 19 April 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

if you win 10 matches in a row and died each match you're doing it wrong

On this point I agree with you. At least most times.

Eglar, on 19 April 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

if you think that a light should only scout, you're doing it wrong.

Fully agreed. But it is usually not the lights who believe that but pilots who never piloted lights. Still, "not just scout" and "getting a positive KDR" are not identical.

Eglar, on 19 April 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

if you did 1000 damage and had 0 kills you're doing it wrong

It would just mean that you don't have a pinpoint weapon setup, don't killsteal (or waste time offing a cripple) or are just plain out of luck.
Not that I ever had 1000 damage with no kill. There's always a lucky death.

[Eglar]

Ah all those quotes..

Windsaw, on 19 April 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

Not necessarily. I've seen players collecting kills and at the same time ensuring the loss of the battle.

Yes, I've seen it too but than again, the other way around happens much more. That's common sense. Statistically, your scenario goes against lim x->0.

Windsaw, on 19 April 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

Irrelevant to the question. What is better: Killing one enemy yourself or helping your teammates killing three enemies?

Pff that's like me asking "What's better? Killing one enemy yourself or killing 3 enemies with yourself?"

Windsaw, on 19 April 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

Not true. Most times, yes, but an occasional suicide run can turn the tide in favor of your side. It just takes a good player to recognize when it makes sense and when not.

Sorry but that's an excuse every of your deaths can be traced to your mistake. If you lead a charge and die, it's your fault. If you fight it out at 12 vs 1 and die it's still your fault. Mistakes were made.

Windsaw, on 19 April 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

It would just mean that you don't have a pinpoint weapon setup,

Well, i'd usually start arguing how bringing a non-optimized build to the game hurts your team but than again that's out of the scope of this thread.

I'm not saying that this K/D r accurately reflects your MWO-Skills but it's currently the best stat to orientate yourself on without #PublicElo.

Edited by Eglar, 19 April 2014 - 03:50 AM.

[hercules1981]

The fact some of u guys r saying kdr doesn't equal good play at all is rediculous. If I had a choice to hand pick my team with players that had 3 plus kdrs every match I would win 99% of the time and u guys all know this. If I was a pro basketball player I would want LBJ Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant Dwight Howard on my team. These guys score serous points and that is the main point of basketball scoring points. Just as killing other mechs is the main point in mwo. Sure there is other things to do in the game such as scouting capping, also relative to BBall is playing defence and assists, but I want guys that can put the ball in the hoop time and time again just like I want guys in mwo that can kill mechs time and time again every game. U give me such players that some say r not that skilled just because there kdrs r high, I'm gonna win ALOT. Oh and one more thing I haven't seen an Allstar in basketball with junky stats ever. All the best players have great states because they have great skill in there profession. The states being great is a direct effect from having great skill. FACT.

Edited by hercules1981, 19 April 2014 - 03:56 AM.

[Sarlic]

Windsaw, on 19 April 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

Question to those who defend KDR:
I pilot mostly lights, but mostly as a striker, although I also take out other lights from time to time.

When I leg another light an see that he isn't a serious threat anymore I leave him standing. Usually my group of heavies arrive soon an mop up. But I am a fast mech, I am no use hanging back when there is more important stuff for me to do elsewhere.
Tha same with unarmed heavies I see. I ignore them, they can't hurt anyone.

Question: Does that make me a worse player?
According to the statistics: yes!
There was a time when win loss was a meaningful statistic, but then they introduced ELO.

Lets face it: There is no number in this game that shows that you are a good player. But several that tell you that you should act more selfish. I ignore the statistics. Only that way I can become a better player.

(slight correction: The weapons statistics are of some value)

I bow for you my assisting friend. This is what MWO makes great. Could use more players like you.

[Wolfways]

Gambyt, on 19 April 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

Kill steal should only be used on solo games

If it's a solo game who are you stealing the kill from?

hercules1981, on 19 April 2014 - 03:51 AM, said:

The fact some of u guys r saying kdr doesn't equal good play at all is rediculous. If I had a choice to hand pick my team with players that had 3 plus kdrs every match I would win 99% of the time and u guys all know this. If I was a pro basketball player I would want LBJ Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant Dwight Howard on my team. These guys score serous points and that is the main point of basketball scoring points. Just as killing other mechs is the main point in mwo. Sure there is other things to do in the game such as scouting capping, also relative to BBall is playing defence and assists, but I want guys that can put the ball in the hoop time and time again just like I want guys in mwo that can kill mechs time and time again every game. U give me such players that some say r not that skilled just because there kdrs r high, I'm gonna win ALOT. Oh and one more thing I haven't seen an Allstar in basketball with junky stats ever. All the best players have great states because they have great skill in there profession. The states being great is a direct effect from having great skill. FACT.

And these players do it all by themselves without the team helping? Plus it's hard to goalsteal(?) when there's only one ball

Edited by Wolfways, 19 April 2014 - 04:57 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Eglar, on 19 April 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

Every decent player ignores nuded mechs, prioritizes targets and fights it out at the end of a match but it doesn't affect your K/D ratio as much as you would think in most cases. There are far more obvious arguments that stand pro-k/d ratio than the specific scenarios you've listed.

if you can get lots of kills you contribute to your team victory
9 out of 10 games are won by team annihilation
if you die, you did something wrong
if you win 10 matches in a row and died each match you're doing it wrong
if you think that a light should only scout, you're doing it wrong.
if you did 1000 damage and had 0 kills you're doing it wrong

One minor disagreement. If you die, you didn't necessarily do something wrong. The other team might have done something smart, or in your death you secured victory. There are so many times that I've had the 'porkchop' hung around my neck and had the pitbulls chase me to their death while I come out the other side barely alive and dripping with bite marks and slobber. Other times, I'm the pile of ash with two blinking eyeballs of surprise. But usually when they do this, it costs them multiple mechs. Last night on Manifold I had this happen. 6 mechs focused on the little Orion missile boat and surrounded me. They ignored my 5 partners who opened up on their keesters as I spun and rolled damage like crazy . My CT was deep red on both sides, but I was alive, and I even got the kill on the one Catapult who started it all with my mighty pew pew single medium lazor of DDDDoooooooOOOOoooommmmmmmm..... LOL (I say this quite jokingly because I durn well know it was pure luck).

And I survived the match while going from a 2-2 fight to an 2-8 advantage in 45 seconds.

Sometimes, your death is more important, and that's why KDR is not the most important stat, but W/L is.

You know, there should be an aggregate KDR/Winloss stat to see how you're really doing.

[Screech]

Kill stealing does not exist. You should thank your teammate for removing a threat to your team. If it happens often you should offer to buy them a drink for saving your skinny hide. If you are lucky they might give you a whistle to blow on when you get in trouble.