536 replies to this topic

[Nightfire]

Jun Watarase, on 29 April 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

Its rather funny that no matter how many people post in this thread stating that their experiences, and that of their friends, are very similar to the pub stomping one reported....

Good start ...

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premades doing the pub stomping just insist that they are outliers and not representative of the actual gameplay experience.

... and here you go running right off the rails!

I will tell you outright that you simply can't know. You can't know what the game play is like for every match. You can't know the composite of pre-mades to PUGs in every drop. The players that come to the forums are, apparently, a very small fraction of the player base and also cannot be called representative of the rest of the player base in anyway. What we do know, as much as we can know anything from PGI, is that groups just don't make up that much (18% I believe) of the player base. (While I will question the validity of such a figure, it is all we have short of guessing) I'll say again, disagreeing and stating that you can't definitively know does NOT mean people take the adversarial position.

If we examine your claim, are you saying 18% of the player base is ruining every game by being as much as 33% (66% if you count sync-dropping) of every drop? Please, clarify this for me because I want to be sure of your position.

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That we are making up stories or just having bad luck. Or are just noobs while they are "pro".

Or that what you see here, no matter how convincing, is anecdotal.
It's like standing in an ER and taking a survey on how many people get injured every day. You'd think the the entirety of civilisation was on the brink of self-destruction based on that sample pool.

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But they wont stop dropping in their 4 man meta builds and trash talking about how "pro" they are.

From my experience:

• Pre-mades drop to play with their friends, not to go stomping. In fact last time I played my "pre-made" of evil overlords lost 10 straight drops before I quit. Was that because of evil pre-made on the other side? Outplayed by better PUGs resisting the evil oppression of the PUG regime? Elo had decided it was simply time for us to have a loosing streak? Or was I simply having an off night?
  
• As for trash talking? People trash talk. PUGs even trash talk. Or doesn't that count?

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Its almost as if they are trying to grief players instead of being the ones griefed...T

Or perhaps you see malign intent where it doesn't really exist. I'm not saying you don't have frustrating matches and I'm not saying that what other players say don't contribute to that frustration. I do question if you don't project your frustration as malicious intent on the part of other players when it likely doesn't exist.

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Too bad griefing players ingame is completely allowed by the code of conduct. That thing really needs an update.

Actually, I think deliberately harming the enjoyment of others with willful intent is actually against the code of conduct. Not getting the experience you wanted because others got theirs is however, not griefing regardless of how frustrating your experience is.

[Craig Steele]

Nightfire, on 29 April 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

Good start ...



... and here you go running right off the rails!

I will tell you outright that you simply can't know. You can't know what the game play is like for every match. You can't know the composite of pre-mades to PUGs in every drop. The players that come to the forums are, apparently, a very small fraction of the player base and also cannot be called representative of the rest of the player base in anyway. What we do know, as much as we can know anything from PGI, is that groups just don't make up that much (18% I believe) of the player base. (While I will question the validity of such a figure, it is all we have short of guessing) I'll say again, disagreeing and stating that you can't definitively know does NOT mean people take the adversarial position.

If we examine your claim, are you saying 18% of the player base is ruining every game by being as much as 33% (66% if you count sync-dropping) of every drop? Please, clarify this for me because I want to be sure of your position.



Or that what you see here, no matter how convincing, is anecdotal.
It's like standing in an ER and taking a survey on how many people get injured every day. You'd think the the entirety of civilisation was on the brink of self-destruction based on that sample pool.



From my experience:

• Pre-mades drop to play with their friends, not to go stomping. In fact last time I played my "pre-made" of evil overlords lost 10 straight drops before I quit. Was that because of evil pre-made on the other side? Outplayed by better PUGs resisting the evil oppression of the PUG regime? Elo had decided it was simply time for us to have a loosing streak? Or was I simply having an off night?
  
• As for trash talking? People trash talk. PUGs even trash talk. Or doesn't that count?

Or perhaps you see malign intent where it doesn't really exist. I'm not saying you don't have frustrating matches and I'm not saying that what other players say don't contribute to that frustration. I do question if you don't project your frustration as malicious intent on the part of other players when it likely doesn't exist.



Actually, I think deliberately harming the enjoyment of others with willful intent is actually against the code of conduct. Not getting the experience you wanted because others got theirs is however, not griefing regardless of how frustrating your experience is.

I get your point, but there are several "Group Players" who have openly posted / bragged about PUG Stomping and how fun it is.

Heck one guy even started a thread to coach people on how to do it and ruin Solo PUG's game just to spite PGI when they didn't reintroduce a Team Queue as he wanted.

So while you might well argue that it's not a huge percentage of games, the posts / actions of some combined with the experiences of the other side can magnify the issue which I am sure you can understand.

Whether it is magnified in the minds of people from 20% to 50% or 50% to 80% is open to debate, but you cannot take away that it is an Elephant in the room.

Personally I don't think the problem is perpetrated by the small group players, but synch dropping 4 mans do actually exist and do actually do it for an in game advantage so they won't lose, and they do it knowing they are screwing over the opposition for their enjoyment without giving a flying proverbial.

[Amsro]

Craig Steele, on 29 April 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

I get your point, but there are several "Group Players" who have openly posted / bragged about PUG Stomping and how fun it is.

Heck one guy even started a thread to coach people on how to do it and ruin Solo PUG's game just to spite PGI when they didn't reintroduce a Team Queue as he wanted.

So while you might well argue that it's not a huge percentage of games, the posts / actions of some combined with the experiences of the other side can magnify the issue which I am sure you can understand.

Whether it is magnified in the minds of people from 20% to 50% or 50% to 80% is open to debate, but you cannot take away that it is an Elephant in the room.

Personally I don't think the problem is perpetrated by the small group players, but synch dropping 4 mans do actually exist and do actually do it for an in game advantage so they won't lose, and they do it knowing they are screwing over the opposition for their enjoyment without giving a flying proverbial.

And yet if that "8-Man" Sync drop was instead matched vs another 8-Man by matchmaker instead of arbitraily having folly restrictions to the team size of a 12vs12 player game, then the "evil premade" will need to battle another instead of getting the "easy" win.

PGI makes thier own problems with too many poor restrictions.

I take pride in stomping an enemy 4-man as a solo pugger! Good times.

[Joseph Mallan]

Poor sports and Jackholes are everywhere Craig. That will never go away. Its part of diversity.

[Nightfire]

Craig Steele, on 29 April 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

I get your point, but there are several "Group Players" who have openly posted / bragged about PUG Stomping and how fun it is.

Heck one guy even started a thread to coach people on how to do it and ruin Solo PUG's game just to spite PGI when they didn't reintroduce a Team Queue as he wanted.

There are ****** group players and there are ****** PUGs. Every population will have a percentage of it that rebels against the behavior expected of them by that society. Just because there are some within a given set is not reason to project that expectation over all members of that set.

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So while you might well argue that it's not a huge percentage of games, the posts / actions of some combined with the experiences of the other side can magnify the issue which I am sure you can understand.

Which is my point. I would argue magnified to the point that they see malicious intent in every frustration and behind every frustration, a pre-made. It may or may not be at the hands of a pre-made and they may or may not be malicious. Without any way to definitively identify a pre-made on the other side, a few bad experiences with pre-mades project into every bad experience being at the expense of pre-mades with no evidence to contradict it. The very absence of evidence to prove the existence of a pre-made goes from being a failure to dismiss PUG-Stomping to ipso facto evidence of a pre-made!

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Whether it is magnified in the minds of people from 20% to 50% or 50% to 80% is open to debate, but you cannot take away that it is an Elephant in the room.

I believe, the "Elephant in the room" as you put it, is the Frustration borne of so many losses and a feeling of lack of control over the situation. The tools most games use to negate this are absent in MWO and so people focus on what they can understand. People grouping up to improve their odds is easy to grasp and understand and it is easy to direct anger and spite at a group of people rather than uncaring, emotionless piece of software. You can't hurt software! This process is called "othering" and it is a mechanism for justifying the negative emotions they project on people they otherwise could or would not.

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Personally I don't think the problem is perpetrated by the small group players, but synch dropping 4 mans do actually exist and do actually do it for an in game advantage so they won't lose, and they do it knowing they are screwing over the opposition for their enjoyment without giving a flying proverbial.

Again, I'm not going to even try and claim these people don't exist because they obviously do. What people can't do is look at the people whose behavior they despise, find a common trait and then project that behavior onto everyone who bears this trait. This is the very definition of bigotry. This is the same bigotry that some pre-mades use to dismiss all PUGs as scrubs, that doesn't make every loss a pre-made suffers a direct result of the PUGs on their team.

[Targaryen X]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 April 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Fair play is I bring my best to the fight and you bring yours, best side wins. That is fair play.

The problem is that is not what's happening.
While I also do not buy the pre-made boogeyman issue, I do not think the games current matchmaking provides an equitable experience for vets and new players. When one team is loaded down with new players because the devs in their infinite wisdom decided brand new payers belong in the middle of the elo curve, or the matchmaker is spreading its search to fill buckets and grabbing people from the lower (or higher) end of the curve to fill spots, even though technically everyone is bringing their "best to the fight", some players "best" is -- through no fault of their own -- fun-crushing bad for the rest of the team. While individuals might be bringing their best to the fight, this still does not ensure balanced teams. Hell, the game has already predicted which side SHOULD win based on its mismatched matchmaking. Is that fair to new players? Is it fair to vets? Or is it fair because at some point everyone eventually gets their turn in the barrel? (old joke ref if anyone gets it)




I think Grimmrog described it pretty well with his post (up until he started redesigning the mechs/variants, lost me there Grim) as far as the new player experience goes he is pretty much spot on. And the funny thing to me, as he pointed out, is that moment of happiness after grinding through cadet bonuses in trial mechs, when you finally have the cbills for your first mech, and you buy it only to find you are stuck in it for possibly hundreds of matches more and facing the grim future of grinding up the cbills 70ish K at a time to buy 2 more of the same mech just to optimize the first purchase... and after all that you still own one mech and 2 variants you probably did not even want in the first place. FUN!

[Joseph Mallan]

yeah I remember how tough it was when I first started playing back in Closed Beta against 8 man team... I defended them having a place in My Que whenever I dropped. Green forces have often dropped against elite forces. I have been rolled like the rest an I take it in stride cause fighting isn't always evenly balanced. Ask the Broncos.

[Almond Brown]

Alexandrix, on 23 April 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

stuff

The others all quit in less than 2 weeks with basically the same reason "this shit is lame" ... more or less.in reference to various things like the constant premade/poptart/pugstomp/meta etc.

So it is your belief then, that if they were to remove the "pre-made" item from your list of apparent "lame shit", the other lame things will also go away and MWO will become the "Cats Derriere?

LOL!

Rose
Tinted
Glasses
Indeed

[Almond Brown]

Gederix, on 29 April 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

The problem is that is not what's happening.
While I also do not buy the pre-made boogeyman issue, I do not think the games current matchmaking provides an equitable experience for vets and new players. When one team is loaded down with new players because the devs in their infinite wisdom decided brand new payers belong in the middle of the elo curve, or the matchmaker is spreading its search to fill buckets and grabbing people from the lower (or higher) end of the curve to fill spots, even though technically everyone is bringing their "best to the fight", some players "best" is -- through no fault of their own -- fun-crushing bad for the rest of the team. While individuals might be bringing their best to the fight, this still does not ensure balanced teams. Hell, the game has already predicted which side SHOULD win based on its mismatched matchmaking. Is that fair to new players? Is it fair to vets? Or is it fair because at some point everyone eventually gets their turn in the barrel? (old joke ref if anyone gets it)

I think Grimmrog described it pretty well with his post (up until he started redesigning the mechs/variants, lost me there Grim) as far as the new player experience goes he is pretty much spot on. And the funny thing to me, as he pointed out, is that moment of happiness after grinding through cadet bonuses in trial mechs, when you finally have the cbills for your first mech, and you buy it only to find you are stuck in it for possibly hundreds of matches more and facing the grim future of grinding up the cbills 70ish K at a time to buy 2 more of the same mech just to optimize the first purchase... and after all that you still own one mech and 2 variants you probably did not even want in the first place. FUN!

Couple of issues here.

1) Let's assume the game did have a Solo Only segregated queue. So 12 Vets drop and 12 Pugs drop, the mix is random. Given that same 24 players, all playing as Solo's, assuming the Vets know to stay tight and focus targets, all without Comm's, what is the likely number of Stomps per Team over say 10 consecutive Matches?

Stomps will still occur and then who gets the blame? The Teams of 12 Solos who actually just played better?

2) There was a time when new players did not receive a Cadet Bonus at all. Would be interesting to hear about how many of them stuck it out, or were they the hard-core we hear about...

Any game I can catch on to in 3 minutes and be really good at, is likely one that will have little replay value, especially if it is strictly an Online game. No challenge means little fun to be had.

[CCC Dober]

Here's my bit why I can't get anyone to play MWO. At all.

Spoiler

There's a steep learning curve for newcomers, which in this day and age is not an advantage to reach a wider audience. Forced no respawn is the most hardcore setting imaginable for an online game and it turns an already steep learning curve into a steep cliff. Sheer luck or 'fixed games' decide the outcome more often that not. Building on that, PGI does nothing to ease new players in, unlike past MW games did before, by way of singleplayer campaigns, effective trainings/tutorials and unlimited access to Mechs, weapons and equipment.

There is no effective way for vets to teach new players without risks or anything else to make up for these deficiencies. I mean I should know, since I had literally no problem teaching people back in MW4 with just a couple of training sessions. And even if there was a way in MWO, the grind is doing its best killing any remaining desire to explore the game after that, unfortunately.

New players desperately need more freedom to explore, customize and given a chance to become competitive before they focus their efforts and invest resources. They can't really do that and actually get punished in many ways for various mistakes that aren't always obvious. It doesn't stop there because even vets get punished for no reason more often than not.

If I wanted to get new guys interested in Mechwarrior (and MWO by extension), I would let them try MW4 Mercs first (with Mekpak 3.1) and let them cut their teeth on the singleplayer campaign. Some isolated multiplayer matches after that to show them the finer points. This gives them plenty opportunity to have some fun without running into UI2.0, grind fests and regular curb stomps (see MWO). Still, new players that survive 'first contact' with older MW games may very well choose to steer clear of MWO. Truth be told, I can't even blame them for that *sigh*

Yep, that's the situation right now: there is nothing that MWO does for new players that older MW games can't do better. And since both mektek and MWLL can't officially help any longer, the new guys are sh1t out of luck. Their only realistic hope are guys like Koniving, who try to offer a helping hand by way of youtube content.

TL;DR:

Older games give a better MW introduction
PGI gives new guys just enough rope to hang themselves
People get fed up with MM abuse and state of the game
Some people stop paying others stop playing
PGI still shocks people with their competence
Situation normal all f***ed up

[Joseph Mallan]

Flaming oblivion, on 29 April 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

This quote explains why most new players leave so fast . And its not because there "Butthurt"

Its because they can't take a ribbing?

[Nightfire]

Flaming oblivion, on 29 April 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

This quote explains why most new players leave so fast . And its not because there "Butthurt"

Because they are special snowflakes and the center of the universe so they take every joke and comment they don't fully understand as a personal insult. That they never developed a sense of humor?

Seriously, if you think that embodies why people leave MWO then lock yourself in your house lest you actually meet some real people. That could end up mentally scarring you for life!

This may be harsh and dismissive and the original poster that you are complaining about may have had a little jab at the attitude portrayed while he was mocking it but come on, it's like the "Husband application for a night out" form. Or are you going to tell me that guys actually fill those out also? I believe you may need thicker skin.

[Jun Watarase]

Thorqemada, on 29 April 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

Nope - that is just natural selection based on random fate.

Fairplay is equal skilled and armed Teams fight it out.

What he actually means is that his 4 man premade in meta builds should continue to get roflstomps as they get matched up against newbies in trial mechs.

PanchoTortilla, on 29 April 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

I don't know about him but what it makes me feel whenever I get stuck on a team with 2 AFK 0-pingers, Alpha lance that runs off by themselves with no simple in-game way to tell them to regroup and a sync drop or the ggclose jackassery on the other team is:

"Hey that FLIR with the 640x480 VOx microbolometer FPA and 35mm objective lens is pretty badass. Looks like FLIR is going to get paid another $6500."

This garbage warrior online gets a fat goose egg and ANY other company that can offer a decent product that isn't full of bugs that never get fixed will get my discretionary spending instead. When a company can't convince a BattleTech/Mechwarrior fan with loads of money set aside for entertainment to spend a single dime on their MW product there's something wrong.

I got suckered by the lies about role warfare, info warfare, thinking man's shooter, and CW and dropped the cash for two Founders packs and not a penny more after one PGI debacle after another. If I had known this unfun mess is what we'd end up with I'd have asked for two Founders refunds before Closed Beta ended.

All this arguing over balance this and that. They still can't get the most fundamental element of balance in a team vs team game right -> 12 active players on both teams for frak's sake.

Why are you responding to a griefer who drops in 4 mans with meta builds and accuses other players of being noobs when they ask for fair and balanced matches?

Solahma, on 29 April 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

I wonder if Jun realizes that MORE games will see 4-mans after today's patch. Since there won't be sync drops of multiple groups on a team, they will be spread out to other drops across the board.

Better get used to working with them

If the patch works as intended and it puts two even teams with equal premades on each side, i wouldnt mind. But its obviously not doing that, im still seeing constant curb stomping and newbies in trial mechs sniping with medium lasers in the same match as veterans running PPC/AC boats.

[Jun Watarase]

Quote

I get your point, but there are several "Group Players" who have openly posted / bragged about PUG Stomping and how fun it is.

This. There was a thread on the front page of GD yesterday where some loser started to brag about how his premade was stomping randoms in heavier mechs because they were using focused fire on voice comms and had lag shield. Pic related.

Almond Brown, on 29 April 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

So it is your belief then, that if they were to remove the "pre-made" item from your list of apparent "lame shit", the other lame things will also go away and MWO will become the "Cats Derriere?

LOL!

Rose
Tinted
Glasses
Indeed

I....what? The complete lack of english comprehension here just astounds me. In no way did he suggest that at all.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 29 April 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[Randalf Yorgen]

so hows the new patch working out for everyone.

Jun Watarase, on 29 April 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

This. There was a thread on the front page of GD yesterday where some loser started to brag about how his premade was stomping randoms in heavier mechs because they were using focused fire on voice comms and had lag shield. Pic related.





I....what? The complete lack of english comprehension here just astounds me. In no way did he suggest that at all.

I think he was talking about the big white banner at the bottom, the one that puts 100% blame on premades for everything wrong and even goes so far as to call it a CANCER. if you look close I'm sure you will see it.

[Roland]

Jun Watarase, on 29 April 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

This. There was a thread on the front page of GD yesterday where some loser started to brag about how his premade was stomping randoms in heavier mechs because they were using focused fire on voice comms and had lag shield. Pic related.

I don't see anywhere in that post where they are bragging about stomping pugs, or lag.

I see someone talking about how he worked with other mechs to take down teams which outtonned them greatly... It's likely that the teams he was facing also had premade groups on them.

I think your interpretation of that post says more about you than it does about the guy who made it.

[Jun Watarase]

Almond Brown, on 29 April 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Couple of issues here.

1) Let's assume the game did have a Solo Only segregated queue. So 12 Vets drop and 12 Pugs drop, the mix is random. Given that same 24 players, all playing as Solo's, assuming the Vets know to stay tight and focus targets, all without Comm's, what is the likely number of Stomps per Team over say 10 consecutive Matches?

Stomps will still occur and then who gets the blame? The Teams of 12 Solos who actually just played better?

2) There was a time when new players did not receive a Cadet Bonus at all. Would be interesting to hear about how many of them stuck it out, or were they the hard-core we hear about...

Any game I can catch on to in 3 minutes and be really good at, is likely one that will have little replay value, especially if it is strictly an Online game. No challenge means little fun to be had.

Part of the reason why vets and newbs are being unevenly spread out is because the matchmaking is selecting a 4 man premade of vets in meta builds then struggling to find suitable opponents to match against them. Any other 4 mans are highly unlikely to have compatible weight classes, so the matchmaking starts putting together a 4 man group of randoms, often while widening the ELO bracket to find suitable players. This problem is compounded when multiple 4 mans sync drop with incompatible weight classes to trick the MM to put them on the same team.

If the MM was consistently putting 12 solo vets against 12 newbies, all the blame would go straight to PGI for the broken MM.

Right now only PART of the blame is going to PGI because there are groups out there taking advantage of the broken MM to rig matches, since everyone knows now that dropping in a 4 man with meta builds lets you pull off 12-2 rofl stomps on a near constant basis. It is no coincidence that every single person dropping in a 4 man with meta builds has a win ratio far higher than average, especially if they sync drop. Regardless of actual skill, any solo player is likely to stay at 50% or so average wins due to factors outside his control (such as his team having no ECM, no lights on conquest, etc).

When a game is decided largely by how any meta builds are one team, and you can control how many meta builds your team has by dropping in pre-made teams, you effectively have the ability to rig matches in your favor.

[Asakara]

Here is the thread where that post came from:

WHAT IS THE MOST EXCITING THING IN MWO TO YOU?
http://mwomercs.com/...-in-mwo-to-you/

[Roland]

Asakara, on 29 April 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

Here is the thread where that post came from:

WHAT IS THE MOST EXCITING THING IN MWO TO YOU?
http://mwomercs.com/...-in-mwo-to-you/

Organized use of light mechs to win despite large tonnage disadvantages...
THOSE PLAYERS ARE MONSTERS AND SHOULD BE BANNED!

[Nightfire]

Jun Watarase, on 29 April 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

This.

Congratulations, you met an ****** or two in your travels. That doesn't mean the world is out to get you or that every stomping you receive is at the hands of an evil pre-made.

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There was a thread on the front page of GD yesterday where some loser started to brag about how his premade was stomping randoms in heavier mechs because they were using focused fire on voice comms and had lag shield. Pic related.

And what I got from that was some player was running his Jenner, ended up running with some other lights and as a result of exercising good tactics and having a bit of luck, succeeded against heavier odds. While he may have been running with a group and he may have been on voice comms, nothing in there even suggested that he was. Nothing in there suggested that he was out to deliberately make other people miserable. As he was in a Jenner, nothing in there even suggested that he was abusing a lag shield of any description. That picture you posted is not evidence of anyone bragging about how they were pug-stomping in the slightest.

You seem to see evil intent in every frustration. In every scenario you can relate to you appear to co-opt it into your crusade even when there is no evidence to suggest that it is so.