536 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Craig Steele, on 30 April 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

In the current format modes? nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

I hope they get it sorted out long before CW but right now, I don't see how the game modes can accommodate the battle you are talking about.

They have work to do on several fronts Joseph, thats not news to most

Ok. That is actually the answer I was expecting from you! Thank You.

[Craig Steele]

Rippthrough, on 30 April 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

Of those 50% founders they claim to have 'retained' - I bet they don't tell you how many logged in just to update the game for the sake of not having 96,000 patches the day they decide to try it again, or how many just logged onto their forum account and didn't play the game...
Regardless, that statement also tells you only 50% of people who funded the startup and were obviously so enthusiastic about the game they put a good chunk of their own money on an unknown bet - based on the promises made - don't even do something as paltry as simply log in even once in a month any more, that's how dispirited they've become.
I don't think that's something they should be proudly trumpeting.

Glass half empty?

[disarray]

OP was way tl;dr but i got the jist from the comic

PGI putting in even a mediocre integrated push to team-talk voip would resolve much of what ails our verbose OP. one or two decent people (who, i concede, may be drunk) calling out obvious things like "we're being flanked on the left" or " stop chasing that friggin spider ffs noobs" is like 80% of teamwork benefits applied. having to type crap is ANNOYING and as a pugger i don't want to troll teamspeak servers to find a server busy enough to accomodate a random.

put in integrated voip already. team fortress 2 had it in 2007. get with the times.

[Rippthrough]

Craig Steele, on 30 April 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

Glass half empty?

I don't leave half-empty glasses around. Shameful waste.

[Nightfire]

Craig Steele, on 30 April 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

(1) Your argument is sound, I concur vs Your argument is great, I empathetically agree. ? Text absolutely can have tone.

Perceived tone. Voice inflections carry more nuances than many realise. But whatever, it's not a discussion worth having.

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(2) Maybe, but those other problems where not part of the OP nor part of your response. Happy to discuss but they are a tangent to the points raised to date.

(3) My personal preferencing is tonnage balancing, not limits and not class restrictions. If the group takes 12 Atlas, let them face 12 Direwolves (maybe, subject to balancing etc, you get the theory though). No restrictions, teams put together on the basis of overall tonnage balanced within ELO.

My point is my perception is that PGI cripples group play more and more to fix symptoms from other problems so they don't have to address those problems. Whenever there is a PUG outcry Groups are the easy fix, to cripple a little more in pursuit of making the PUG's more happy while not having to address any of the hard issues. Especially if fixing those issues could mean admitting they were wrong somewhere.

Players with a Group preference are part of the player base also but not only are they dwindling (according to PGI's reporting of their stats) I would say they are being actively driven out by decisions designed to discourage their play-style and their presence. Even the token gestures made towards groups are crippled.

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(4) And you are probably right. But people who are the subject of perceived injustice (rightly or wrongly) will call it out as an injustice. It doesn't matter that you want to calm things down and put things in perspective (which I believe is the guts of your original post), they have still been wronged.

They still perceive to have been wronged. So does the child that has been told they can't have that new toy. You don't reward the temper tantrum by giving them what they wanted even though they were wrong.

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(5) So couple of things here, Firstly what does it say about the calibre of people who work around any system to get what they want without concern for other people involved. Put the ethics completely to one side, is that even a sustainable situation in most things? It's far more likely that the people who are getting short changed will move on to get it elsewhere (whatever it may be) and then what do the first group do?

It says they as human as the PUGs who demonise them and TI them when they see them in play because they blame them for every frustration in the game. (Yes, these people do exist. Yes, I used to report them.) There is no perception of justice on either side because no one ever sees justice being done (PGI choose the complete silence approach). There is no sense of being valued as a group player when PUGs have seen several features implemented solely to address their complaints and have had nothing move towards their own promises (both generally speaking). Will the PUGs be just fine if the group preference players all just decided to leave?
Even the best of people can buckle over extended perceived wrongs. Both sides are guilty and both sides are ignored by PGI to some degree.

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More broadly though what you seem to be painting is an "us and them" picture here, and it's not (well, it shouldn't be )

You are ABSOLUTELY right! It is an "us and them" and it definitely shouldn't be. If the "them" has to exist, it should be PGI being asked to fix things not other players othering each other.

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(6) So firstly let me tell you I play in a group of rl friends, we don't synch drop we just manage our roster but I would love for a better structure to group play 5 - 11. I call us Beer and Pretzel players (although its usually scotch and chips, but w/e ) But it's not here today. My choice is to not be cynical about it, but rather to assume that PGI are working towards more of what I want. In the meantime I use what PGI have provided within the context and spirit it is intended. Thats my personal choice.

I'm pretty much the same save the cynical part.

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But there are plenty of things in my world that I wish was more aligned to my exact needs, it just ain't gunna happen over night though. I get frustrated sure, I express my frustration sometimes too, but ultimately it's my choice what I do.

Everyone is human, some more flawed than others. Myself included.

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(7) Ofc I know, LOL, I drafted it exactly as that (and I did say I know it has restrictions). I did so to make the point that there are people in this thread (and others) arguing that they synch drop just so as they can "play with all my friends". I don't believe it for a minute. I think there's a lot more reasons and just as one side might simplfy their argument, this is also a simplification (hence the quotation marks).

See I do believe it (for some) simply because I see "play with all my friends" as "play MWO with all my friends". Private Lobbies as currently presented are not MWO to me and I would suspect many others.

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By that doesn't change that the PUG queue is not designed for that. PGI have freely said they are concerned about the impact 5-11 groups will have on balance. Anyone wanting to play in that queue outside of the struture is doing so knowing they are creating a favourable scenario for themselves.

I will grant this, it still doesn't change the fact that everything PGI has done regarding groups has been to their detriment. One would hope that PGI would have looked at the hard options a little more rather than culling teamwork a little more.

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It doesn't matter how entitled or justified they think they are, they are manipulating the system to play with an advantage.

True. though it does remind me of someone I used to discuss game design theory with. He said something like "If you want to find the flaws in a game, let players find them. If there is an optimal or overpowered mechanic, they will find it, use it and exploit it. When they do, you can't blame the players for playing the game in the most optimal way possible, you need to look at your design. When you do, think long and hard if that exploit is actually the problem or a symptom of something else."

(Ok, I've run out of the allowable number of quote tags!)

"Ergo, some people have a bad experience, more than the system is envisaged to, and they express that. I suspect far more just leave."

Some of those that leave are people that wanted to play with their friends but no longer could.

"There's no point in targetting the victim, deal with the issue. That's something we should be pushing PGI on, not each other."

COMPLETELY agree.

[Flaming oblivion]

Jun Watarase, on 30 April 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

You are right, and plenty of people have pointed this out before. I dont think its a coincidence that nearly every matchmaking change has made it easier for the pub stomping to occur. Everytime they widen the ELO bracket, they make it easier for high ELO players to "hit" the low ELO players that have no business being in the same match. When they went release, allowing 8 man teams to drop against randoms, despite almost everyone telling them it was a terrible idea, it allowed 8 man teams to just face roll randoms and also contributed to the massive bad press MWO got on release.

When they made the largely pointless 12 man queue that most premades refuse to use instead of seperating it into solo and group players, we had premades resorting to sync dropping with incompatible weight classes so that they could continue to get easy wins. Then they announced that it was perfectly fine to sync drop vs randoms, which just encouraged it more.

But its PGI, they ignore pretty much all feedback, im pretty sure they dont even read the forums anymore, they dont even answer any questions other than the carefully chosen NGNG ones that make very sure not to ask anything that might result in PGI executives becoming uncomfortable. So theres nothing we can do unless someone wants to buy out IGP or PGI.

Case in point : A couple of months ago i posted an open thread asking why the matchmaker kept resulting in ridiculous roflstomps. A PGI engineer responded with a very confusing technical explanation, but carefully avoided addressing the thread question. I PMed him and asked him if he could please respond to the thread question, he read it, but declined to reply. Thats basically the PGI modus operandi everytime someone askes an uncomfortable question. They just will not respond. I dont believe they have explained why they wont fix the PPC/AC boating meta either.

I dont think you are allowed to make threads asking for a PGI response anymore as well.

Not that i'm defending it the fact is PGI have scared so many new players off with PuG stomping premades they've had to widen the ELO bracket because the games dying most new players quit long before they get to a high ELO, Its to late now I feel the population is dwindling to much , The greedy premades that gamed the system and PGI only have themselves to blame

[Davers]

When I drop in a 4 man I prefer to play Conquest. Not because I think capping is interesting or anything like that. I like that there are several maps that encourage the 2 Alpha lances to duke it out premade vs premade. Knowing I am fighting another coordinated team makes it much more fun. In fact, after 2 years of playing the only matches I remember are the ones against other known premades.

On another note, I was in a 4 man yesterday. None of us were on coms, only typing. Plus the some of the other guys didn't even write English. Just some guys I friended after a pug match, we dropped together simply because we knew that we would look out for each other just by watching the minimap. Not all premades are evil or meta.

[Joseph Mallan]

Flaming oblivion, on 30 April 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Not that i'm defending it the fact is PGI have scared so many new players off with PuG stomping premades they've had to widen the ELO bracket because the games dying most new players quit long before they get to a high ELO, Its to late now I feel the population is dwindling to much , The greedy premades that gamed the system and PGI only have themselves to blame

So what about us PUG Stomping PUGs? Why is't anyone complaining abut it when As a PUG I can participate in stomping PUGs?

[Davers]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 April 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

So what about us PUG Stomping PUGs? Why is't anyone complaining abut it when As a PUG I can participate in stomping PUGs?

Haven't you been reading? That never happens.

[Joseph Mallan]

Davers, on 30 April 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Haven't you been reading? That never happens.

Can't help but ask the questions that need asking!

[Flaming oblivion]

Instead of just saying it I aactually for real just uninstalled MWO , The new player experience is just so absolutely disgusting the worst I've ever come across in a game , I kept telling myself it would get better when I realised it wouldn't , I realised the game had no future , The game isn't worth my time let alone my money cya . I'll see if WoT is a MMO worth playing

Edited by Flaming oblivion, 30 April 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[Davers]

Flaming oblivion, on 30 April 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Instead of just saying it I aactually for real just uninstalled MWO , The new player experience is just so absolutely disgusting the worst I've ever come across in a game , I kept telling myself it would get better when I realised it wouldn't , I realised the game had no future , The game isn't worth my time let alone my money cya . I'll see if WoT is a MMO worth playing

Sure is! Of course there are premades in the public que and the grind is far worse...

[Triordinant]

Davers, on 30 April 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Haven't you been reading? That never happens.

It's not supposed to happen because Elo is supposed to separate expert players from newbies. This should work, but only in a premade-free, PUG-only queue where stomps (theoretically) would be rare. I say should work because it's never been tested because we've never had a premade-free, PUG-only queue.

Elo doesn't work as well (or at all) when you add premade groups because the two opposing teams could have similar Elo but one might have a premade on TS that have 'mechs pre-chosen to work together and players that have trained together for months, while the other might have none of these advantages. PGI is trying to fix this by limiting teams to 1 premade each and making sure that if one team has a premade, the other will as well. They announced yesterday that it wasn't working and multiple premades were being dropped on the same side (and later entire 12-man teams vs. PUGs). So this approach hasn't been tested either in terms of preventing stomps.

As far as I can tell, the best solution is still the same one I've been advocating for at least 18 months: a premade-free, PUG-only queue alongside a premade queue that PUGs can opt into. While it's true that premades can still drop solo into the PUG-only queue then link up on TS afterwards, creating a premade where there shouldn't be one, I believe this would be rare because 1) it's hard to do if you don't have a 4-man premade already in the queue to form the core of your "uber-premade" (and your guys could end up on both teams), and 2) I'd like to believe "evil premades" are the minority and most premades are "good" and prefer the challenge of fighting against other premades instead of stomping PUGs to pad their stats.

Edited by Triordinant, 30 April 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Dago Red]

Triordinant, on 30 April 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

It's not supposed to happen because Elo is supposed to separate expert players from newbies. This should work, but only in a premade-free, PUG-only queue where stomps (theoretically) would be rare. I say should work because it's never been tested because we've never had a premade-free, PUG-only queue.

Elo doesn't work as well (or at all) when you add premade groups because the two opposing teams could have similar Elo but one might have a premade on TS that have 'mechs pre-chosen to work together and players that have trained together for months, while the other might have none of these advantages. PGI is trying to fix this by limiting teams to 1 premade each and making sure that if one team has a premade, the other will as well. They announced yesterday that it wasn't working and multiple teams were being dropped on the same side (and later entire 12-man teams vs. PUGs). So this approach hasn't been tested either in terms of preventing stomps.

As far as I can tell, the best solution is still the same one I've been advocating for at least 18 months: a premade-free, PUG-only alongside a premade queue that PUGs can opt into. While it's true that premades can still drop solo into the PUG-only queue then link up on TS afterwards, creating a premade where there shouldn't be one, I believe this would be rare because 1) it's hard to do if you don't have a 4-man premade already in the queue to form the core of your "uber-premade" (and your guys could end up on both teams), and 2) I'd like to believe "evil premades" are the minority and most premades are "good" and prefer the challenge of fighting against other premades instead of stomping PUGs to pad their stats.

This works off the assumption that ELO works under any circumstances in a game of this type. Never mind ignoring the fact that the games mechanics make snowballs happen regardless of skill levels facing off against each other.

Now I'm all for a set of three queue's. A pug only, a smaller premade and mixed in pugs and a 12 man only but I'm not fully convinced there's enough of a population to handle that split. That middle ground one is important as feeding a random mix of small teams to a 12 man is even uglier than a 4 man mixed in with pugs.

Built in VOIP would also really even things out.

But yelling about how anyone who wants to play the game with their friends is the devil works too I guess.

Edited by Dago Red, 30 April 2014 - 12:55 PM.

[Triordinant]

Dago Red, on 30 April 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

This works off the assumption that ELO works under any circumstances in a game of this type. Never mind ignoring the fact that the games mechanics make snowballs happen regardless of skill levels facing off against each other.

Like I said, it's never been tested.

[Davers]

Stomps are not a symptom of premade vs pug. Stomps happen whenever one team gains a significant numerical advantage like 0-3. Coming back from that is very difficult.

[Triordinant]

Davers, on 30 April 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

Stomps are not a symptom of premade vs pug. Stomps happen whenever one team gains a significant numerical advantage like 0-3. Coming back from that is very difficult.

Using a well-trained premade with pre-coordinated mechs vs. PUGs makes gaining such an advantage a whole lot easier, though. Is that not correct?

[Dago Red]

A well trained well organized 4 man in in extremely optimized builds maybe. But 4 guys just kinda screwing around while BSing? It honestly happens more due to disco than either type of team.

Regardless ELO is meant to judge one on one skill. By applying it to a game where 11 other people can determine the match outcome beyond your control it's automatically flawed.

Almost like picking a game engine not designed for massed multiplayer for an "MMO"...............

Edited by Dago Red, 30 April 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[Ralziel]

I can't personally see anything happening with the sync droppers. They're people who're spending money and time on the game, so why they'd get banned is anyone's guess.
I don't drop half as often as I used to, but when I do the games have actually been quite a bit better than in the last few months. Maybe I've just been getting lucky. But I do tend to drop on my own alot, so an all randoms match up would be a good thing for alot of people, but I'm sure there'd be some way for that to get exploited too.
And they're not out to deliberately ruin the game for everyone else. They're just people playing who don't want the challenge going up against teams of other people who know how to play. Yes they're idiots. Yes they're childish. And yes it is ruining the game for everyone else. But, I think it's in part been brought on by the quality of people that have been attracted to the game of late. A large portion of posts are people moaning about balance, lag, money, PGI, and none of it is constructive. PGI are never going to listen to people on the forums when alot of it is made up of people whining about the same issues, in the same way, who are constantly quoting each others mistakes to make themselves look like they got an extra on the tape measure.

Also, there is no such thing in this game as an OP build. There ARE drawbacks to using certain "OP" builds. Good players know them, new and inexperienced/casual players do not. If people stop trying to get "head shots" instead of going for a sensible shot, we might all find games start to turn around a bit more.

[Dakkath]

Hello all,

I am just popping in here to remind everyone to post according to the CoC and also to play nice in the sandbox w/each other. As there has been various reports popping into our queue from here.

Thank you,
Dakkath