624 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

The purpose of a brawling Atlas is to force the enemy upon the horns of a dilemma - do they kill the big, nasty war machine that's mixing it up with them, or will they try to kill a smaller, more valuable target who might seek cover and hide? If they beat on the Atlas, the Atlas has the most toughness of anything in the game thus far, and can still dish out a good bit of damage before he dies - meanwhile the Atlas' support escorts are ripping the enemy team apart. If, on the other hand, they ignore the Atlas in favor of the better targets, it's hard for them to stop the Atlas - who still carries a lot of guns (ideally...) - from getting into their rear arcs and wreaking havoc.

Longer-range Atlas builds work differently, but a well-played Atlas should always be looking to force the enemy to take on that devil's bargain.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

YueFei, on 06 May 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

Tanking doesn't mean drawing all the fire from the entire enemy team. Ideally you still want to limit your exposure to as few of the enemy as possible. But given that with any direct-fire weapons (pretty much all weapons except LRMs) you need to gain line-of-sight to get a shot through, you also potentially give the enemy a shot at you.

While light mechs can do a pretty good job of drawing fire and dodging quite a bit of it at long range, as you go against better and better pilots, light mechs really can't mix it up at close range for very long before getting 2-shotted. And I've seen the way that smarter teams don't spend much effort shooting at Lights that try to nip at them from farther out, just twist to spread damage while focusing on trucking the slower enemies in front of them who *can't* get away.

When it comes to a hard push where there's only 1 barrier between opposing forces, it very much helps to have that massive armor in front tanking the initial hits, whether you're the one doing the pushing, or you're the one getting pushed on. Only Light mechs really have the speed to get away from a push that happens at point-blank range, and even then against really good marksmen you still might not escape.

Proper torso twisting really is the HUGE difference between an Atlas that dies in 3 seconds, and an Atlas that lasts 20 seconds under fire. You can die from ~160-ish damage to the CT, or take 100+ through an arm, and then another 110+ through a shoulder, another 100+ from the other arm, and 320+ damage soaked through the dead shoulder (50% damage transfer mechanic) and absorb another 100+ damage on the other shoulder, for a total of 730+ damage before dying. That's over 4 times the damage, but it's more than just surviving 4 times as long, because enemies firing at you start to overheat as they run out of heat capacity, and their DPS takes a dump.

And nothing says you have to push or stay at the front and tank until you are *dead*. Good teams rotate their hurt mechs out of the line of fire. They bail each other out of tough spots, and even step in between hurt teammates and the enemy in order to save them. As long as a teammate still has weapons, even if all his armor is gone, it's better to protect him and rotate him to the back where he can still pump shots into the fight from behind healthier teammates.

Tanking is the ability to mitigate damage to yourself and to your team as much as possible. The smaller, lighter mechs on your team can't take as many hits and lose their firepower faster. The XL-engine-equipped DPS mechs on your team do 0 DPS when they are dead. But if those mechs are the only ones willing to engage the enemy directly, you risk losing all that DPS fast, instead of spending the heavier armor of your Assault mechs to buy more time for them to dish it out.

Very well said.

[Anvil Dragon]

I usually pilot a heavy and kill these brutes, but I bought a D-DC ran it a few times then dropped the LRM and set it up more like a Dragon I use to pound things. Much better. I won't pilot it often but but it has gone from big shuffling target to a good hammer.

Thank You

Edited by Anvil Dragon, 07 May 2014 - 12:01 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

Cimarb, on 06 May 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

This isn't WoW - there is no such thing as a tank in this game...

It doesn't matter how much damage you can take. It matters how long you can survive. Those are not the same thing. Someone can "tank" in an ECM spider far longer than an Atlas, because they are "tanking" through avoidance. It doesn't matter how much armor you bring to a fight - if you just stand there "tanking", you will die, and die quickly.

Staying in the back and barraging the enemy with missiles as they try to approach is far more useful than charging into the enemy team "tanking" damage that I wouldn't otherwise even be taking.

I think you seem to be taking offense where none was meant, it's not aimed at you specifically ok?
It's just that when you bring an lrm atlas, hanging around at the back of the fight, SOMEONE has to get shot and it won't be you. SOMEONE has to tank hits so you can use your lrms. Usually it'll be a smaller, weaker mech. They are being put in this position because someone chooses to use a mech in a certain way. A way that isn't really meant. A way that puts the small guys in a position of damage soak-a position they can't do very well. This is especially detrimental to medium mechs, already the masochist's choice.
Spiders can't tank anything I'm afraid. All they can do is occupy attention of the stupid. A good marksman will have a leg VERY quickly indeed.
So if the Assault won't be direct soak, and the heavy can't take enough hits to soak and the medium does his job of flanking....and the light is intent on his job of spotting...WHO stops the enemy brawlers from closing you down?

The answer, as I've witnessed sadly, countless times is NO ONE.

People are just saying that taking the assault and using it as a back line boat (sub optimal in extremis-the range that is=flight time etc) and having your fun with it, means your fun is at other's expense. they can have very bad games indeed because all members of a "team" aren't willing to team effectively.
It's just sad that an assault is worth more to a team than a bad light or medium. the assault plays ineffectively for the situation? the team takes a big hit for it.

So once again, people are not attacking YOU, they are commenting on the practice of "mis-using" the weight of an Atlas and potentially hurting your team mate's games.

[IraqiWalker]

Cimarb, on 06 May 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

Exactly.

The rest of the stuff that I could be responding to, I'm going to pass and call this thread dead. Have a great time tanking and leading the charge at 56 kph - I'll be having fun raining LRMs down on you

I pray you're never on my team.

[Alaskan Nobody]

IraqiWalker, on 07 May 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

I pray you're never on my team.

From what I have seen pugging he is better with it than you might think - and not afraid to take a few hits either (which would be the biggest problem with most Atlas LRM builds)

[IraqiWalker]

Shar Wolf, on 07 May 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

From what I have seen pugging he is better with it than you might think - and not afraid to take a few hits either (which would be the biggest problem with most Atlas LRM builds)

well, I know of your skill and judgement, so I'll trust your words.

[Alaskan Nobody]

IraqiWalker, on 07 May 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

well, I know of your skill and judgement, so I'll trust your words.

The one completely erratic, and the other... vague?

Brave man.

[Tim East]

Had my first truly awful experience with one of these today. Guy didn't even engage the enemy, ended the battle with 0 damage taken. Just walked around firing 2 LRM20's into walls and overheating. Not against LRMs as a supplementary weapon for atlases, but when you're only packing 2MGs and a med laser for backup, AND you don't even manage to shoot the enemy, it makes you look kind of bad.

[Fut]

Witnessed my first LRM-Atlas last night on T.Therma, unfortunately he was on my team.
Our side was smart enough to circle the Pugzapper, instead of entering it, so we were engaged off to the side a bit.
The enemy was pushing hard, driving us back slightly, but we weren't going down easily.
At one point I was taking a bit too heavy of a beating (HBK-GI, not really made for tanking), so I backed off to circle behind our force - Which is when I noticed the LRM-Atlas.

All of that heavy armor (and potential firepower) going to waste waaaaaaaaay in the back of our lines, all while the lighter Mechs were taking substantial damage. What a shame. Definitely didn't make things easier for us, that's for sure.

I'm not one to tell people the right or wrong way to build/run their Mechs. But when we're holding a position and you're rocking ~20t of armor, please move up a bit to help your team survive a little longer.

[Mark of Caine]

After having read all 16 pages of this wonderful thread, and the meritorious ideas put forth by the OP and his supporters, I'm left amazed at how some people simply are unwilling and unable to let go of their notion of being threatened by what they consider to be an effective SOLO build, and highly ineffective TEAM build.

And this leads to the whole point of the thread. This is a TEAM game, but there will always be those who let their own selfish pride and ego cloud their judgment or ability to debate properly. The entire point of the thread was to help those who need help with their method of building a proper Atlas so as to not be a detriment to their TEAM, but rather a boon.

A 100-ton mech should never be a pure missile boat with little to no other weapons as backup. Ever since I read this thread, and I did post my own personal story earlier (page 8 maybe?), I've taken a much harder look at how I build my mechs, and I have found that I have been a better factor for my team. Sure, I lose matches just like any other player. And even though my wins haven't skyrocketted, I do feel better about how I support the TEAM, rather than go half-cocked with just one weapon system and hope I get kills.

Should an Atlas mount an LRM system for SOME long range support? I believe so, yes. Should an Atlas mount ONLY LRMs as its primary weapons loadout? HELL NO! I personally don't believe missile tubes matter THAT much, but it definitely is something to consider before trying to cram an LRM system in something that's not meant to go there. And wasting all that ballistic and energy potential just to spam LRMs in a 100-ton mech is just... WRONG.

[Jake Sorren]

Due to this thread, I will now devote my founder's atlas to missile boating with ALL the ammo.

Congratulations.

[Void Angel]

Haha! The "Pugzapper!" hahaha...

[Alaskan Nobody]

Jake Sorren, on 08 May 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

I like being an jackass and am now choosing to use this thread as my excuse

I hope to make you feel REALLY bad - too bad I am not better at it though, or I might have succeeded.

Fixed that for you.

[Jay Z]

I'm OK for an Atlas to boat LRMs if it removes all of it's armour. If it is not going to take damage or get in the fight, why waste tonnage on armour? It won't do a thing until every last team member is dead anyway.

The greatest strength of the atlas is it's 600+ armour rating and the ability to mount big ballistics and large standard engine. I feel sad any time I see an Atlas without a ballistic or an XL engine, because that is not an Atlas, that's a large derptaro.

[Zeede]

I saw a Battlemaster once with five flamers and not much else. Maybe he was having fun, but he was being a royal ****** to his team. Refusing to close the gap and intentionally staying out of the fight to lob LRMs, in an Atlas, isn't too far from doing the same thing.

At least the Flamermaster was up front in the thick of things...

[Void Angel]

Caine, I should have put the missile tubes last, as they're the least important restriction (ironically, those 6-tube hardpoints are less of a limitation because of the extreme crit space limitation of having all the hardpoints in one component.) My college writing instructor would be disappointed in me - typically it's more effective to go with your strongest argument first.

The point of the Atlas isn't always to brawl, though I vastly prefer my brawling Atlas - that's just the way I've learned to use it best (I actually learned to use a UAC/5 first,) and it works very well that way. I just want to warn people away from using substandard boat builds with a chassis that can't boat well. A "pure," ALRM35 Atlas with TAG and a Medium Laser carries more ammunition than it can effectively use - it's designed to simply rain at any intermittent contact that might present itself, hoping that the rest of the team doesn't get plastered by direct-fire pinpoint damage before the Atlas does enough damage with indiscriminate LRM fire to make a difference.

As I pointed out before, that pure missile Atlas (and I'm not straw manning this build - people use that!) will carry 3420 missiles, enough to fire at its maximum sustainable rate for seven minutes and 51 seconds. Considering the lag time on many maps before getting into range, that's enough ammunition to fire for most of the combat phase of a match - assuming there is someone exposing themselves enough to get in a good shot the entire time. That's not realistic, but if you add the minute or so of most matches where you practically never see any of the enemy - and factor in the amount of time you actually have targets, even if you just rain everything - you find that you're carrying more ammunition than you can realistically expect to use. A lot more.

Nothing that any of the trolls and stamp-your-foot-and-repeat-yourself arguers that have tried to debate the point have been able to answer me based on game mechanics and real math. They just proclaim that their subjective, non-verifiable experiences trump my "opinion" of the facts. This is not a reasonable rebuttal, as it does not deal with the pertinent verifiable facts. =)

Jay Z, on 08 May 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

I'm OK for an Atlas to boat LRMs if it removes all of it's armour. If it is not going to take damage or get in the fight, why waste tonnage on armour? It won't do a thing until every last team member is dead anyway.

The greatest strength of the atlas is it's 600+ armour rating and the ability to mount big ballistics and large standard engine. I feel sad any time I see an Atlas without a ballistic or an XL engine, because that is not an Atlas, that's a large derptaro.

A pure missile boat Atlas can't do that. It literally has no space with which to buy anything with the tonnage that it would save, unless it's for a bigger engine. But really, the problem isn't that it's not using its armor - that's a playstyle failure, to be sure, but it's really beyond the scope of this thread. The main issue with Atlas LRM boats is that they simply don't have the capability to boat missiles properly, due to design constraints placed on the chassis.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 May 2014 - 05:16 PM.

[Jay Z]

Agreed, my post was quite satirical. For Assaults I've master the Victor, Stalker, Highlander, Banshee and Atlas. The Stalker is an amazingly capable missile platform with high energy hardpoints for TAG and laser peaking. It is also a much slimmer target and can spread damage well. The Highlander 733 is also a very capable missile platform with jumpjets. This thread is completely accurate in that the Atlas is fundamentally flawed as an LRM platform for many reasons in and of itself. This is only exacerbated by the inexperienced pilots that use them.

[DarthPeanut]

To each their own but seems like there are better choices for boating LRMs than an Atlas. I prefer my only Atlas as a brawler build but with the current prefered weapons groups it is harder to run an Atlas brawler for sure. At least it is for me since I drop solo still.

Ran into a 4 man group running fs-9s with a DDC LRM boat (one of 2 - 4 mans against the team of pugs I was on, hope that fix that bug soon) and we did alright. Lost but it was a fun. I will say though, without a support of team to defend/ spot... an LRM Atlas is pretty easy picking if you have any speed. Couple matches I seen an LRM Atlas without support (dropped solo presumably), they are pretty darn vulnerable. Mostly only have a couple lasers to defend themselves.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 11 May 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[Void Angel]

"To each their own" isn't a good maxim for the guides forum, but I totally agree that there are better choices for LRM boating than the Atlas - literally all of them. Also, I'm finding brawling to be challenging, myself - particularly with an Atlas,because I can take a lot of damage, and I can deal a lot of damage, but I can't really just back out and try again once I engage. So I understand that some people want to put long-range weapons, including LRMs, on their Atlases - that's not what this thread is about.

The problem with a pure boat LRM Atlas are numerous - but perhaps the most telling is the fact that the Atlas is carrying more ammunition than it can effectively use. If you swap out some of that LRM and ammunition space, you end up with an Atlas that can rain for as long as it realistically needs to without being helpless in close combat - even if you insist on "boating" the whole 35-missile throw weight that an Atlas can support. I outlined some of this with the Smurfy links from This Post, back on page 14; my opponent's response was "I want to go back to my original post." The game data clearly shows that an Atlas pure-boating LRMs just isn't optimal. People do it anyway because all that heavy armor and ECM makes them feel safe, and the LRMs make them feel like they're helping during the camp-and-hide phase most matches devolve into. But there are literally better choices in any other option on that chassis - including a hybrid-type LRM 'mech.