624 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

Void Angel, on 12 May 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

There's also This One, which is what I was using when I killed you. It's very hot if you succumb to the temptation to use your Medium Lasers too much, but it can put out an impressive amount of burst damage.

I have one of my variants set up almost exactly like that currently, but with an ERLL in the arm instead of LPL. It makes up for the rest of the short range loadout. It works, but not as well as I would like it to. Torso-based brawlers are just so limited... Though they are still effective when the enemy charges around a hill without checking seismic first...lol

[Void Angel]

I couldn't fit the extra weight from the pulse laser anywhere else; I thought about a PPC, but I wanted the Large Pulse for light defense, since I wasn't even fully basiced at the time. Torso brawling isn't too bad - in fact, if you think about it most brawlers are toso-based. The difficulty with the Banshee comes from laser-based torso brawling, which is another reason why my laser battery in that first build is a tertiary weapon system.

[Cimarb]

Void Angel, on 12 May 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

Torso brawling isn't too bad - in fact, if you think about it most brawlers are toso-based. The difficulty with the Banshee comes from laser-based torso brawling, which is another reason why my laser battery in that first build is a tertiary weapon system.

Very good point. I'm not the brawling type, but like to carry lots of big weapons to snipe and LRM with. Since the Atlas can't snipe for crap with all those low hardpoints, that is the primary reason I went with an LRM-centric build.

The Banshee is like a bigger, slower Battlemaster with these energy builds. I had some pretty good success with almost the exact same build (2xLPL and 2xERLL, screw ghost heat) on my BLR, but could go considerably faster in it and snipe more effectively with the higher hardpoints, so the Banshee is a disappointment in comparison. Also, having to fill the lower hardpoints in the Banshee first upsets me...

[Void Angel]

With the Atlas, you have to rely on direct combat at some range, or you're not getting the most out of it - the limitations on sniping also apply to TAG, after all. If I was going to use LRMs on an Atlas, I'd go with something like This. You have the Large Lasers for all-purpose firepower, and the LRMs to harass - and the UAC stack to rofflepwn. Ideally, you'd pie the corners to get line of sight on someone without their team being able to fire back at you, then upen up with the UAC/5s and LRMs. I guarantee they will back out in a hurry, and once you see them start to frantically backpedal, you can give them the Large Lasers and go back to cover to cool down. The LRMs and/or UACs can fire just about forever, with the lasers as your primary heat dump.

Of course, that's the mobile variant. If I downgrade to a 300 engine (this is not a brawling Atlas) and add in more firepower, it'd look like This. Same shake and bake tactics, but with more LRM launchers and more missiles to feed them.

[SethAbercromby]

I'd personally go for an LRM10 and use that leftover tonnage to get that ECM in there (and maybe a CASE? That half ton leftover tonnage can't really be applied to anywhere). 10-5 salvos aren't really neck-breaking but still a bit less ammo efficient that I'd like them to be. On 10 tube launchers, I try going either for an LRM10 for perfect tube efficiency or LRM20 for dual salvos of the same size. The build I've settled for in my AS7-D is this with dual LB and an ASRM6 for short range armor chewing and 2 LLs for long range direct fire. STD300 though, so it's not exactly the fastest 'Mech around

[Void Angel]

Oh, durrr.
This is what I get for slapping builds together on the fly - lemme fix that:
Faster Version
Slower Version

Edited by Void Angel, 12 May 2014 - 03:41 PM.

[Void Angel]

The goal of those builds is to use the LRMs to farm assists and make people duck, then pound on the enemy with burst fire from the UACs, LRMs, and Large Lasers when it's time to fight directly.

[Alaskan Nobody]

SethAbercromby, on 12 May 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

I'd personally go for an LRM10

Use the third launcher

A pair of LRM5 weigh less than 1 LRM10
A pair of ALRM5 weigh the same as an ALRM10 - but still reload faster

[Gyrok]

Void Angel, on 26 April 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

STOP IT.

The Atlas is a very poor missile platform for a variety of reasons:

• It doesn't have the space for it.The Atlas' missile tubes are all in its right torso - right next to the ECM on the D-DC. This means that you can have, at most, 35 missiles per salvo on that chassis, or 40 on the D or RS - unless you're deliberately gimping yourself by forgoing ECM and/or Artemis. This is an insufficient throw weight around which to build a 100-ton Battlemech.
  
• You're wasting tonnage on excessive ammunition. A "pure" Atlas missile boat with 35ALRMs, TAG, and a Medium Laser (like Dave Barry, I swear I am not making this up) will have enough ammunition and heat sinks to sustain fire for seven minutes and 51 seconds. That means that if he had a target that whole time, he could pound out indiscriminate LRM fire for longer than the combat phase of many matches actually lasts. Of course, this is not realistic - realistically, you'll have periods where there's no targets, or choose not to engage an intermittent lock - but if you're firing an amazing 75% of the time, you'll still have ammunition for a staggering nine minutes and 14 seconds of combat. This is simply too much ammo, even if you come to the battle foolishly intending to indiscriminately rain everything that moves.
  
• Every single alternative does it better. Seriously: every single one. No matter what chassis you choose (most choose the D-DC,) there is a Stalker that does it better; or a Highlander; or a Battlemaster; or an Awesome. Only the Victor and Banshee are outclassed by the Atlas as a missile platform - all the other chassis have at least one variant that has better hardpoints, tubes, and critical space.
  
• Your energy hardpoints are very low. The Atlas' energy hardpoints are at about waist-level. You're shooting from the hip, which means that you have to expose a very large portion of your silhouette to use TAG (even if you use a corner, you have a very broad 'mech; same thing applies.) Since TAG is a critical tool for you to be able to get good effects with your missiles, this is a serious drawback.
  
• It doesn't have the tubes for it. You've only got one 10-tube and two 6-tube hardpoints on your D-DC; the other Atlases have less. This is why your missiles come out in a messy stream - which makes them more vulnerable to AMS, gives your target more opportunity to spread damage and seek cover, and slows their rate of fire (your launchers don't start to recycle till the last missile is away.)

In general, the only thing the Atlas clearly has going for it as a missile boat is that it is somewhat tougher than the alternatives. Even ECM is of dubious value, since it comes at the cost of restricting throw weight - if your weapons for a 100-ton death machine could fit comfortably on a Catapult, you're doing it wrong.



Atlas missile boats, unless they isolate themselves, are frequently among the last to die - but this is not a good thing. What it means is that the enemy has been killing targets whose ratio of firepower to toughness is much higher than an Atlas LRM boat: Consider an AC/40 Jaegermech, or an Ultra AC/5 Illya Muromets build. Either of those 'mechs are considerably easier to kill, and bring much more direct firepower (i.e. they will kill you faster than an LRM boat.) So by removing your Atlas from the front lines, you've removed the option for the enemy to shoot at you, the hard target, rather than your glass cannon supports.

It's not my purpose in this post to insist that no one should never put any LRMs on an Atlas as part of a larger build - though I don't think such builds are optimal right now, and the most experienced players I know will agree with me. But boating LRMs through that chassis is simply a Bad Idea for empirical reasons. You may feel that you get high damage numbers with your Atlas LRM boat, but you'd get better numbers and performance from the superior alternatives I mentioned - and your team would be better off.

Edit,05MAY14: reformatted and added a point.

Holy Cow! Somebody else gets it?! I thought I was the only one that wanted to slam my head into the wall when seeing LRM35 Atlas with Tag + 2 MGs + ML!!!! Please, for the sake of all of our PUG matches, please let every MWO player ever be FORCED to read this post by an in game prompt...who cares about the hula girl, put something constructive in that waste of space...

EDIT: Artemis is a waste of tonnage and money if you play LRMs indirect fire...

Edited by Gyrok, 12 May 2014 - 03:58 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Gyrok, on 12 May 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

EDIT: Artemis is a waste of tonnage and money if you play LRMs indirect fire...

Last I checked it was 'bugged' and worked despite lack of LOS.

[Void Angel]

True - and since LRMs are always more effective in direct-fire, Artemis is a very important system to have, regardless. =)

[Alaskan Nobody]

With exceptions of course

Pretty darn sure my Kintaro could fit either ALRM5s or ammo - but not both.

[1453 R]

Shar Wolf, on 12 May 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

With exceptions of course

Pretty darn sure my Kintaro could fit either ALRM5s or ammo - but not both.

On the contrary. 5xALRM-5, with a perfectly comfortable seven tons of ammunition, an AMS, a Beagle probe to foil ECM trolls, requisite TAG, and even a token medium laser for fetching assists on that ECM troll with, though you pay for that laser with half a ton of armor. Your choice whether to lose that half-ton or go with a small laser instead and be super token with it.

Also an enormously better pure-LRM fire support platform than a D-DC with no guns. Regardless of choice of token trollsauce laser.

[Alaskan Nobody]

1453 R, on 12 May 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

On the contrary.

Touche.

Only Kintaro I have so far is the GB - which has 2 of it's M-slots in the CT, so no 5xALRM5 for me.

(be fascinating to find out if it gets double the door bonus )

[Cimarb]

Gyrok, on 12 May 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Holy Cow! Somebody else gets it?! I thought I was the only one that wanted to slam my head into the wall when seeing LRM35 Atlas with Tag + 2 MGs + ML!!!! Please, for the sake of all of our PUG matches, please let every MWO player ever be FORCED to read this post by an in game prompt...who cares about the hula girl, put something constructive in that waste of space...

EDIT: Artemis is a waste of tonnage and money if you play LRMs indirect fire...

As it just so happens, you are talking about a build that has done me quite well in the last month or two.

Please stop blaming the build for all of the id10ts you have ran into and refer to my nifty new graphic that I put together just for this thread! Yes, you should be honored, I know



In case you can't read that fast - I admit it is a bit quick, but it's a lot of frames... - it's a series of 100+ scores that I have made with my DDC in the last month. ALRM35, 2xMG and token ML, plus all sorts of electronics. Roughly half of them were in a group, and the other half completely solo.

Don't blame the build, blame the "genius" behind the pedals.

[CarnageINC]

Blah...don't preach to me about what to do with my Atlas. I'll do whats fun or what works for me. While I don't have the setup like you have listed, I use an 2 x ALRM15 launchers on my DDC. I could care less what others may think.....when i use this DDC i use it for fun, not for competitive play.

In addition my theory for the ECM Atlas maybe viewed differently than others. I try and position my Atlas to cover as many people as possible in my bubble but I don't get in the face of the enemy where I can be detected, singled out and destroyed faster. Therefore now offering no ECM protection for others. I'm not one of those LRM guys who stands off 800 meters plus and just launches volleys off. I try and support the main push while still trying to stand off 300-400 meters.

Are other mechs better suited for this...well...the Raven comes to mind but its most effective in the direct fire roll and needs to be more on the front. The Cicada could also be good for this too but most 3M pilots go off and scout and peck. Spiders are better off harassing the enemy then being tied down to the main push. Is my theory sound, not in all cases but I really don't care what you think. I'll use my Atlas the way I want to use it.

[Void Angel]

You. Are. In. The. Guides. Section. Telling you what to do or not do with your build is the reason this part of the forum exists. Be constructive or take your easily bruised ego somewhere else.

I mean, seriously! You just yelled at me for offering my opinion, then vomited out a wall of poorly constructed and punctuated text to tell me yours. What do you suppose my reasonable response is going to be?

Ufdah...

Edited by Void Angel, 12 May 2014 - 07:34 PM.

[Void Angel]

Cimarb, just think how well you'd do with a good LRM build! =) The game mechanics that make the Atlas a bad 'mech to boat LRMs with aren't changed by signature graphics - no matter how dizzingly fast they cycle.

[CarnageINC]

Void Angel, your right....this is the guide section. I did provide something constructive if you would stop being snarky and read it all. I gave some valid opinions on why an LRM Atlas is viable...did I not??? I have 2 paragraphs on it. So stop getting your panties or tighty whiteys in a bunch.

Now did I format it in the best way, no I did not. But its basically based off your starting line....and I will quote you...

Void Angel, on 26 April 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

STOP IT.

So look past my defensive first paragraph and actually read what was written. I'm not saying what you have said is wrong. Actually most of it is true, but you left out something I though should of been thought of. Is an Atlas optimal for the roll I have described...not really, the Raven/Cicada is much better fit. But the difficultly of destroying an Atlas is made even more difficult when its not easy to reach. Therefore the ECM it provides benefits the team longer. I just think using the LRM's is a way to still be combat effective. Standing off is not the whole purpose of the LRM's.

[Void Angel]

While I realize this may seem strange to you, I did read your entire post. Your use of one line of Comic Sans letters as an excuse for your diatribe does not impress me any more than did your reasoning. Sure, it's easier to survive as an Atlas if you hide from the fight - but you can do that with ANY D-DC build.

Edited by Void Angel, 12 May 2014 - 08:34 PM.