624 replies to this topic

[DarthPeanut]

I was trying to respectfully acknowledge that people are free to do as they wish before I followed with I thought it was a bad idea.

Cut and dry version. Pure LRM boat Atlas is ridiculous in my opinion honestly. I did not buy the king of in your face mech to put mostly LRMs on it and lay back in a tank farming cbills. Boated LRMs are better served in many other platforms that do it better. It really is that simple. Not to mention you waste your weight, which will be even more crucial when/ if 3/3/3/3 comes back.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 11 May 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[SethAbercromby]

DarthPeanut, on 11 May 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

which will be even more crucial when/ if 3/3/3/3 comes back.

It's when. The only reason it is not here now is because the patch that brought it on the public server broke the matchmaker and caused a lot of connection issues, forcing PGI to disable it until they isolate the issue. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't plan our builds as if 3/3/3/3 was already here. gonna save you a lot of trouble later on.

[DarthPeanut]

SethAbercromby, on 11 May 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

It's when. The only reason it is not here now is because the patch that brought it on the public server broke the matchmaker and caused a lot of connection issues, forcing PGI to disable it until they isolate the issue. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't plan our builds as if 3/3/3/3 was already here. gonna save you a lot of trouble later on.

I run what I run because that is what I personally like or is good for my play style... I am not catering or planning my builds according to anything. I was just pointing out how much more critical it will be to have spent assault weight on an LRM Atlas in the future.

[SethAbercromby]

DarthPeanut, on 11 May 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

I run what I run because that is what I personally like or is good for my play style... I am not catering or planning my builds according to anything. I was just pointing out how much more critical it will be to have spent assault weight on an LRM Atlas in the future.

I'm sorry, I phrased that a little unintentional. What I mean that you should at least take the general role of you 'Mech into consideration as if there were only 3 of them on the field and that you will be able to fill into one of the main roles the class needs to fulfill for a successful team effort. Making an Assault LRM boat in general for example is quite questionable as that tonnage and armor will be needed at the front. This doesn't mean that you must run a brawler but you should at least go for a mid to long range fire support 'Mech to fight in the second line behind the dedicated brawler.

[DarthPeanut]

SethAbercromby, on 11 May 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

I'm sorry, I phrased that a little unintentional. What I mean that you should at least take the general role of you 'Mech into consideration as if there were only 3 of them on the field and that you will be able to fill into one of the main roles the class needs to fulfill for a successful team effort. Making an Assault LRM boat in general for example is quite questionable as that tonnage and armor will be needed at the front. This doesn't mean that you must run a brawler but you should at least go for a mid to long range fire support 'Mech to fight in the second line behind the dedicated brawler.

Yes I misunderstood based on the wording, sorry.

I agree. I would much rather if an Atlas runs LRMs on it, it is reasonably... not boated. That way your tonnage is not spent sitting back behind everyone.

[Thunder Child]

A single LRM 15 is all an Atlas needs to keep heads down while it valiantly charges at the enemy, losing both side torso at 600m due to Jump Snipers.... (I actually try to be a little more subtle with my Atlas, but I can understand why people boat LRMs, or run PPCs/Uacs and try to snipe. The damn thing is so frail with a few 30 Point alpha able to rip off those HUGE STs. We really need some sort of CoF or Convergence fix.... but that's another thread). If an Assault Pilot wants to LRM Boat, I recommend the BLR-S, any of the Stalkers, half the Awesome, or that silly Highlander Variant.

[Void Angel]

Every 'mech in the game is fragile when charging over open ground against entrenched snipers. The trick is to use cover (and strikes) to approach the enemy without getting pounded on - and to get your team to back you up. The problem with the Atlas is that literally every other alternative does boating better, and that you get more out of the 'mech by putting additional guns on it, even with a maximized number of LRM launchers.

[Cimarb]

Thunder Child, on 11 May 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

If an Assault Pilot wants to LRM Boat, I recommend the BLR-S, any of the Stalkers, half the Awesome, or that silly Highlander Variant.

An Assault pilot that is effective with his LRM build is more important than an Assault pilot that is ineffective with his "optimal" build. The guide should focus on teaching people HOW to use their build more effectively, not that they are bad for preferring that build - that is all I want people to understand.



@Void - Good match the other night. It was fun and worth the hole you put in me! <o

[Void Angel]

Again, that's not the purpose of this guide, and you are free to build your own to fill that role.

And yes, it was fun; the Banshee should be really fun once I master it.

[IraqiWalker]

Void Angel, on 11 May 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Every 'mech in the game is fragile when charging over open ground against entrenched snipers. The trick is to use cover (and strikes) to approach the enemy without getting pounded on - and to get your team to back you up. The problem with the Atlas is that literally every other alternative does boating better, and that you get more out of the 'mech by putting additional guns on it, even with a maximized number of LRM launchers.

Honestly, that's partly because PGI doubled armor values, but still allowed us to fire at triple the speed. AC 20s for example are doing 60 damage per 10 seconds, instead of 20 damage per 10 (the gauges for weapons, such as AC10, LRM 15, LRM 20, is that the "caliber" is how much damage that weapon deals within 10 seconds). Right now AC20s are actually AC60, AC10s are AC30, and so on and so forth.

Fixing that part can help with the current way that ballistics are being handled. However, that's not really related to this thread, so I will stop here.

I'm not a detractor of Assault LRM boats, they have their place in the field, and a role for fulfill, but I do believe that anyone using a mech in a role it wasn't designed for, is just plain wrong. It's why we have people bashing the Dragon and Quickdraw chassis.

In the case of this thread, an Atlas running nothing but LRMs and a couple of backup weapons, is a bad idea. On the other hand, a BLR-1S LRM boat is not so bad at all. The Atlas LRM boat is almost as bad as a Victor LRM boat. Unlike the Victor, the Atlas can handle being hit a lot better.

[Rei Fukai]

kamiko kross, on 07 May 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

It's just that when you bring an lrm atlas, hanging around at the back of the fight, SOMEONE has to get shot and it won't be you. SOMEONE has to tank hits so you can use your lrms. Usually it'll be a smaller, weaker mech. They are being put in this position because someone chooses to use a mech in a certain way. A way that isn't really meant. A way that puts the small guys in a position of damage soak-a position they can't do very well. This is especially detrimental to medium mechs, already the masochist's choice.
Spiders can't tank anything I'm afraid. All they can do is occupy attention of the stupid. A good marksman will have a leg VERY quickly indeed.

On the other hand everyone want Atlas to draw enemy fire and die. No one ever backs up Atlas. When I run as7-d with 4ML+2LBX10+SRM/LRM in the frontline no one protect my back. In combat even when I'm in front line everyone just atacking mechs I'm damaging to get more kills for themselves. No one cares about enemy meds/lights that burn my back. They are just happy to get more crits and frags then to protect their assault.
Assault is meant to be used as assault platform and not rushing alone on enemy team. It's not meant to play seesaw, it's very slow to move from cover and backwards. And teammates usualy block path back to cover.
Assault is best in assaulting - when meds/lights scouted forward and your whole team opens up and rushes on the enemy, First assaults, then others to mix with enemy lines. In random matches this tactic is useless, as teammates never opens with you to attack. You just go alone 1 vs 5 and die in 10 seconds.
Now I run DC with 2LL+LRM45+ECM. It's fun and good for some change. It's best used at 300-500m from enemy. In med range LRMs make more damage - less time to take cover and less spread, ECM is not affected much by direct PPC hits and 2LL do pretty well job in close-med range. LRMs over 800 meters are just useless and are more to scary enemy, they even dont supress, as any mech can easily avoid it.

[Jon Gotham]

I see what you mean, but not all of us leave you to die. I always try to back my assaults up.

[LiGhtningFF13]

I have to add here that we all talk about a "multiplayer" means you find plenty of players/characters who have their preferences.
And if I find some guys who drive such builds, like LRM Atlas builds or even XL Atlas builds I don't criticize him or her. But If you drop with your community/clan (12er drop) it's a completely different situation.

[IraqiWalker]

LiGhtningFF13, on 12 May 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

I have to add here that we all talk about a "multiplayer" means you find plenty of players/characters who have their preferences.
And if I find some guys who drive such builds, like LRM Atlas builds or even XL Atlas builds I don't criticize him or her. But If you drop with your community/clan (12er drop) it's a completely different situation.

You are generous.

I personally will criticize an LRM-only Atlas and explain why it's wrong. I have no problem with quirky builds that work. My problem is with builds that deliberately handicap the team, and put them in a disadvantageous position. I would rather they pick another mech to be their LRM boat.

[Cimarb]

Void Angel, on 11 May 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

And yes, it was fun; the Banshee should be really fun once I master it.

Is that what you were in? I saw your name pop up in front of me during our charge and died before I could process it, lol. At least I took out that crap talker on your team first

I haven't had any luck finding a fun build in the Banshee - effective, sure, but not fun. It's like driving an Atlas without ECM...

LiGhtningFF13, on 12 May 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

I have to add here that we all talk about a &quot;multiplayer&quot; means you find plenty of players/characters who have their preferences.
And if I find some guys who drive such builds, like LRM Atlas builds or even XL Atlas builds I don't criticize him or her. But If you drop with your community/clan (12er drop) it's a completely different situation.

I totally agree. I will suggest better ways to do something, but if you can do well with some weird setup, more power to you and I encourage people to try different things until they find that setup. Everyone learns their playstyle and what works best with it eventually, just like we all did.

For instance, I get flack occasionally for putting an XL in my Stalker 5M. It was probably the reason I died against Void, actually. I do very, very well with it, though, and have great KDR and W/L with it, as well as consistently high damage numbers, so I will continue to use an XL in it because it is effective for me. That's not opinion - it's fact proven through statistics - which is much more important than listing WHY a build SHOULD not be effective.

IraqiWalker, on 12 May 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

You are generous.

I personally will criticize an LRM-only Atlas and explain why it's wrong. I have no problem with quirky builds that work. My problem is with builds that deliberately handicap the team, and put them in a disadvantageous position. I would rather they pick another mech to be their LRM boat.

If you are critiquing them before you see their results, you are wrong, though. If they do poorly in the match, critique all you want. If they don't, keep your opinion to yourself (or actually give it a shot yourself, as you may be surprised by it...).

[Void Angel]

Rei Fukai, on 12 May 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

On the other hand everyone want Atlas to draw enemy fire and die. No one ever backs up Atlas.

kamiko kross, on 12 May 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

I see what you mean, but not all of us leave you to die. I always try to back my assaults up.

It's distressingly common, though. A large part of it is because the game conditions players to act that way. People learn behaviors, in general, by observing the results of those behaviors and drawing conclusions. If an action gets results, we're more likely to try it again - and if we get punished, we're less likely. In MWO, the rewards for successfully shooting at long range are immediate - you're rewarded with damage, or seeing pieces of them blown off - but the rewards for successfully taking damage to gain a better position (including brawling) are deferred. This process has conditioned the player base to react to damage defensively, seeking cover rather than pushing through it to gain an advantage - which is often the cause of a brawler's team following him all the way up to contact, then scattering like cockroaches once he commits.

Now, people also learn from watching the apparent results of other people's behaviors. So whenever a brawler seems to be punished for brawling, players watching see that, compare his results (dying in a pyre of betrayal and shame) to their results (not taking damage) and often conclude that he screwed up. The brawler, on the other hand, learns that "PuGs can't be trusted," and both parties are now less likely to charge and more likely to hang back. Which tends to make the above process happen more often, which leads parties to the same conclusions... and so on and so on, like water down the toilet, in a positive feedback loop of bias confirmation and group conditioning. This is the cause of the current PuG metagame.

Fortunately, people also have language, and can learn from knowledge transmitted via that medium - which is why I keep plugging away in the Guides section.

Cimarb, on 12 May 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

Is that what you were in? I saw your name pop up in front of me during our charge and died before I could process it, lol. At least I took out that crap talker on your team first

I haven't had any luck finding a fun build in the Banshee - effective, sure, but not fun. It's like driving an Atlas without ECM...

Try This. You're fast enough to fight back against lights without arm weapons, can use either weapon system alone for a long, long time, and if push comes to shove, you've got a 41 point alpha to remonstrate with people - and people always seem to shoot for the center torso anyway. =)

That match and others like it was one of the reasons I wrote my other thread, "Timidity is not a Tactic." People got up to your position, got shot at, and then just cowered and wet their pants at you instead of helping me and Skills out. Same reasons as my above explanation to Rei and Kamiko, but only somewhat less frustrating because I understand the reasons.

[Void Angel]

LiGhtningFF13, on 12 May 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

I have to add here that we all talk about a "multiplayer" means you find plenty of players/characters who have their preferences.
And if I find some guys who drive such builds, like LRM Atlas builds or even XL Atlas builds I don't criticize him or her. But If you drop with your community/clan (12er drop) it's a completely different situation.

The difficulty is that this is the Guides section - we're here to offer up advice as to what works and does not. In matches, though, there's no point in yelling at people for pretty much any reason, and good reason not to - yelling at them makes them angry, and anger makes them stupider... er. Seriously, there's been research on it. Stressing people out actually shifts their brain functions, prioritizing survival/fighting and limiting their ability to make good decisions that require complex thought. This is why the lower Elo ranks in games like League of Legends are filled with incoherent rage-monkeys and trolls - many of them may well be better than their Elo suggests, but they rage at people and destroy their team's ability to work together.

[IraqiWalker]

Cimarb, on 12 May 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

If you are critiquing them before you see their results, you are wrong, though. If they do poorly in the match, critique all you want. If they don't, keep your opinion to yourself (or actually give it a shot yourself, as you may be surprised by it...).

I'll give it a shot.

[Cimarb]

Void Angel, on 12 May 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

It's distressingly common, though. A large part of it is because the game conditions players to act that way. People learn behaviors, in general, by observing the results of those behaviors and drawing conclusions. If an action gets results, we're more likely to try it again - and if we get punished, we're less likely. In MWO, the rewards for successfully shooting at long range are immediate - you're rewarded with damage, or seeing pieces of them blown off - but the rewards for successfully taking damage to gain a better position (including brawling) are deferred. This process has conditioned the player base to react to damage defensively, seeking cover rather than pushing through it to gain an advantage - which is often the cause of a brawler's team following him all the way up to contact, then scattering like cockroaches once he commits.

Now, people also learn from watching the apparent results of other people's behaviors. So whenever a brawler seems to be punished for brawling, players watching see that, compare his results (dying in a pyre of betrayal and shame) to their results (not taking damage) and often conclude that he screwed up. The brawler, on the other hand, learns that &quot;PuGs can't be trusted,&quot; and both parties are now less likely to charge and more likely to hang back. Which tends to make the above process happen more often, which leads parties to the same conclusions... and so on and so on, like water down the toilet, in a positive feedback loop of bias confirmation and group conditioning. This is the cause of the current PuG metagame.

Fortunately, people also have language, and can learn from knowledge transmitted via that medium - which is why I keep plugging away in the Guides section.

Good stuff there. Sad, but good analysis.

Void Angel, on 12 May 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Try This. You're fast enough to fight back against lights without arm weapons, can use either weapon system alone for a long, long time, and if push comes to shove, you've got a 41 point alpha to remonstrate with people - and people always seem to shoot for the center torso anyway. =)

That match and others like it was one of the reasons I wrote my other thread, &quot;Timidity is not a Tactic.&quot; People got up to your position, got shot at, and then just cowered and wet their pants at you instead of helping me and Skills out. Same reasons as my above explanation to Rei and Kamiko, but only somewhat less frustrating because I understand the reasons.

I'll definitely try that. Of my 36 or so mechs, I don't think I have ever used a standard PPC except on trial mechs, since I am such a fan of the ERLL, but it's worth a try. I usually switch to just my LPLs when less than 100m anyways, since my heat is so high by that point, so it makes sense.

[Void Angel]

There's also This One, which is what I was using when I killed you. It's very hot if you succumb to the temptation to use your Medium Lasers too much, but it can put out an impressive amount of burst damage.

Edited by Void Angel, 12 May 2014 - 12:02 PM.