624 replies to this topic

[SaltBeef]

The Atlas is much funner to play on it's own terms. Yesterday morning in HPG manifold I smoked 3 light mechs and assisted in the death of an Boar'shead in the underground area. Running to the enemy and getting cored by enemy heavies can get very boring very rapidly. The atlas is a much more verstile platform than you are giving it credit for. I many cases pugs will leave thier Atlas in the dust to be picked off. Sorry there is no role to play in pugs except to work with those who will work with you ( teamspeak or Lance chat ) to destroy the enemy. The numbers speak for themselves. 30 tubes of LRMs are effective on a atlas with out fully compromising it's face smashing brawling ability. It is best to work with teamspeak members to fill out your roles to dominate the battlefeild. Clan Coyote is hiring contact Mezlo Steele in the Clan Section. We are looking to build another Cluster.

[Flaming oblivion]

LIes my lrm 50 atlas with a xl and no RT/LT armour dominates them all . One mech to rule them all.

[Cimarb]

Votanin FleshRender, on 03 May 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

As a newer player, especially one that was frequently and obscenely yelled at by spectating vets, I am very hesitant to call out teammates that are making mistakes. I very much try to offer contructive advice, and to phrase it in a non-antagonistic tone.

But, a couple of nights ago in Crimson, there's a big brawl going on in the city buildings right outside of the 'side' exit of the tunnel. My team gets hammered down, including me. Flipping through spectate, I come across a guy in an DDC standing on the dock, away from the fight, and the only thing on his Atlas are 3 LRM10 and an ECM. That's it, nothing else. He's just standing there shooting off rounds whenever he gets a chance a target, and he's still at 100%. No other wpns, so I can only assume he was carrying 15 tons of ammo. I tried suggesting that it wasn't the best way to help a team, but at the end of the match, he had 300+ damage and 2 kills... so to make matters worse, I'm sure he thinks what he's doing is working.

Personally, I don't think a DDC should have LRMs... the last thing you want your ECM doing is shooting missles off and showing the enemy where you are. Other Atlases, I'm kinda indifferent to, as long as you're not ONLY a missle boat.

There are idiots in every build and chassis possible - that doesn't make every build and chassis possible bad. You can't judge a build by the "lowest common denominator".

Speaking from the perspective of my other LRM boats, i love having an ECM atlas hang back with me - it means I have much less return fire to worry about!

[Khobai]

Quote

There are idiots in every build and chassis possible - that doesn't make every build and chassis possible bad. You can't judge a build by the "lowest common denominator".

Speaking from the perspective of my other LRM boats, i love having an ECM atlas hang back with me - it means I have much less return fire to worry about!

This. I won #1 assault in the first official tournament using an Atlas-D with two LRM20s, an erppc, 3 medium lasers, and 2 machine guns.

LRM Atlases arnt bad. Players that dont know how to use LRM Atlases are bad.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Cimarb, on 03 May 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

There are idiots in every build and chassis possible - that doesn't make every build and chassis possible bad. You can't judge a build by the "lowest common denominator".

Khobai, on 04 May 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

LRM Atlases arnt bad. Players that dont know how to use LRM Atlases are bad.

Then perhaps what we need is a guide put together on how to properly use an LRM Atlas
Edit: especially since the OP was less about the fact that they were using LRM as opposed to how they were using them.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 04 May 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[Cimarb]

Shar Wolf, on 04 May 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Then perhaps what we need is a guide put together on how to properly use an LRM Atlas
Edit: especially since the OP was less about the fact that they were using LRM as opposed to how they were using them.

That is exactly why I butted my big ole nose into the conversation. I'm not arguing the reasoning of the OP, necessarily, but the tone and... elitism?... conveyed in it. It can be summarized by Khobai's statement:

Khobai, on 04 May 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

LRM Atlases arn't bad. Players that dont know how to use LRM Atlases are bad.

[Delas Ting Usee]

Got to say, I disagree with the OP.
Nothing wrong with an Atlas having LRMs and ECM and serving as a support platform.
I disagree with the whole "follow the fracking Atlas" mantra - but only in pug games.

I usually have a variant DDC with 2 med lasers, 1 AC 20 and 25 tubes plus ECM.
ELO on that particular load out is ridiculous - like 2.3 or something.

[Khobai]

Atlases arnt tanks. No mech in MWO can really tank in the traditional sense. Expecting Atlases to tank for you is just plain stupidity. Atlases need to hide behind rocks like every other mech.

Atlases also dont get jumpjets like the Highlander/Victor or high mounted weapons like Stalkers. Atlases get pathetically low mounted weapons. Combine that with being slow and huge and it pretty much makes you one of the worst snipers in the game. Which is one reason LRMs are actually pretty good on an Atlas. LRMs are a logical choice for an Atlas that wants to compete in the long-range meta.

Edited by Khobai, 04 May 2014 - 06:21 PM.

[Nikkoru]

mogs01gt, on 03 May 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

How long does your teammates in lighter mechs have to wait for you to engage? Wait until our armor is at 75%???

Well, if you are part of a premade and your atlas pilot has been assigned to and has agreed to a specific task, then you can expect him to lead and engage.

If you are part of a pug, then you have no promise.

[Void Angel]

Aaand, I'm back. Wasn't a vacation, though; I was making puzzles at the Yakima Training Center.

Looking over some of the forty-five notifications in my queue from two and a half days away, I'm noticing a certain trend continuing, so I'm going to clarify, again, what this thread is and is not about.

This:

Khobai, on 04 May 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

I won #1 assault in the first official tournament using an Atlas-D with two LRM20s, an erppc, 3 medium lasers, and 2 machine guns.

LRM Atlases arnt bad. Players that dont know how to use LRM Atlases are bad.

Is what this thread is not about. Specifically, that build and any build like it. What it is about are Atlas builds that forgo a significant investment in other weapon systems in favor of buying additional ammunition for the three launchers they actually have space for. This thread does not concern "LRM Atlases" of the type Khobai gives as an example.

As for Cimarb, I'm kind of beating my head against a wall here, but I'll try again: We are not worried here about whether or not we hold opinions - of course we do; the only reason I'm mentioning "opinion" is that someone a while back tried to use "but that's just your opinion" as a sort of "get-out-of-argument-free card." But I'm supporting my opinion with concrete facts that apply to anyone who builds an Atlas. Your facts apply unequivocally only to you, as they consist of your own demographic statistics. Essentially, I'm saying "the fundamental capabilities of this 'mech are ill-suited to boating LRMs," and your response is "but I personally do better with my LRM boat Atlas than I used to do with my old direct-fire build." My problem with your position is twofold: you're not really dealing with my actual argument (in fact, you keep saying you agree with my reasoning;) and you're using your personal results as a counter-argument for a general rule of advice.

When I parse your statistics (or Khobai's, for that matter,) I notice a couple of things: You're getting high placement in tournaments - but not with a missile boat Atlas. Your 'mech was a Stalker, while Khobai took along a substantial amount of other weaponry to make the build work. When the chips were down, neither of you went with an Atlas missile boat - nor should you have.

So if my argument stands - and you keep saying it does - why disagree with me? "Tone?" Some accusation of elitism? You're getting a lot of mileage out of two words of Comic Sans font. An accusation of elitism might have more weight if I was saying, "This is the way you have to build every Atlas because I'm [name withheld to protect the guilty] and I know what's best at everything!" But I'm not telling people how they have to build their Atlas - except to strongly warn them that this is the worst way to build one that I know. That's not objectionable; this is the Guides section! If people want to build their 'mechs any which way and putter around in them, they don't come here. They come here to find what other people think regarding what works - and what does not.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 May 2014 - 08:35 PM.

[RiotHero]

When I run my "free" thud, it has 2xAMS and the AMS range module. I like to roll with a friendly DDC. That's 3 ams and ECM giving some really good lrm cover. When those Atlas LRM "boats" try getting us it's laughable.

Samziel, on 27 April 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

I occasionally see people who tells me to mind my own business when they drive ECM'less DDC just to have more LRM's. I really hate them.

The best was an ECM'less DDC that only had 2xML's on it, THAT WAS IT! I'm not sure if the point was to make everyone on the team hate him or what but, it worked.

[Void Angel]

Some people just like to be jerks, or ruin other people's matches to create more anger in the game so that players will transfer their frustration to PGI and become mindless rage monkeys like themselves - but I digress.

[White Bear 84]

mogs01gt, on 03 May 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

There is a serious trend going on! I keep seeing more of these LRM Atlas's or simply Atlas pilots that sit back and not engage..Each match, most players have more damage then they do....


The issue really isnt the fact a DDC is using one hardpoint for LRMs, the issue is the pilots sitting back behind everyone else. How long does your teammates in lighter mechs have to wait for you to engage? Wait until our armor is at 75%???

These players are bottom of the food chain because they do not actually really assist the team. An atlas is ALWAYS more effective up with the big guys and leading the charge. It is a damage sponge, a dps magnet that returns the favour!

I find it embarrassing when you can get 600+ in an Ember or another light, then you see the Atlas score and its less than 100. They might as well have brought a Locust!

p.s. I am also seeing increasing number of players with XL's in their Atlas.. ..just, why? Don't do it.

Edited by White Bear 84, 04 May 2014 - 08:52 PM.

[Void Angel]

Well, remember here that I'm not saying you have to always be in front - I'm just trying to warn players who don't know any better away from a very weak build. I didn't just pull the topic out of the blue, either. I kept on seeing Atlas after Atlas missile boating ineffectively in my matches - so I wrote the topic to try and stem the tide.

But you don't have to be a close-in brawler. This thread is not about optimizing Atlas builds (it's about avoiding a specific bad build,) but the only thing you should really worry about with an Atlas is presence. You don't always have to be leading a charge - particularly because the game is training players to hide these days - nor do you have to be a brawler. An Atlas is best utilized when it is projecting combat presence.

Now, you can do this at just about any range. I haven't been using it lately, but I wouldn't be surprised if the old UAC/5 stack is still a pretty fair midrange Atlas build. My favorite Atlas build EVER was a hybrid missile Atlas with an ERPPC and a Large Laser to back up the LRMS (this was before they locked ECM to that torso and nerfed my missile tubes.) I would get a line of sight on some part of the enemy team (preferably an isolated target) and proceed to bully them with my armor and armaments - from as much as 800m away, typically. It was very effective and tons of fun - that's why I used it.

But all that is pretty far afield: this thread, as I've pointed out before, is about the negative design aspects of an Atlas missile boat.

[Cimarb]

I had the majority of my matches in the tournament in my Stalker because it was my "main" mech at the time. What I realized by looking at my stats when I did use my DDC a couple times during the tourney and shortly thereafter, though, was that even though the Stalker was my preferred mech, I was actually getting better results in my Atlas from a W/L basis, while getting almost exactly the same KDR as well, and scoring over 100 in matches with it as well. That is why I started using my DDC more: I wanted to help my team (even if it was just pugs).

Void, I respect your opinion, but in a guides section, telling people NOT to do something that you don't care for, but others do quite well with, is exactly the opposite of what a good guide should be. You point out the tube count and location of the missiles: they are both facts, but of debatable merit for reasons I have already detailed.

[giganova]

Once you start making exceptions...

Worry not, I'll be working on an actual Atlas LRM guide, one with video evidence as opposed to nothing more than stated opinion. A guide that maintains the dogma of "LRM Atlases are bad" is not a guide.

[Zeede]

Votanin FleshRender, on 03 May 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

he had 300+ damage and 2 kills... so to make matters worse, I'm sure he thinks what he's doing is working.

The issue is, that's not impressive. (Since the stats reset my LRM Awesome-8R has dropped 86 times and averaged 642 damage per match.) And as for the kills, kills mean very little in MWO, in my opinion. There is a lot of luck involved with landing the killing blow, since pure 1 on 1 fights are rather rare.

If you read Victor's excellent guide to LRMs, and learn to use them well, then you'll automatically invalidate the Atlas as a LRM-centric chassis. To sum it up, a mech utilizing LRMs as its primary weapon system needs to have:

1. TAG and Artemis. Since Artemis and TAG require line of sight then you also need:
2. Speed. No, not 150 km/h silliness, but you need to move way faster than an Atlas can. You need to be able to reposition and be able to GET to line of sight on your targets. Also, having high mounted energy hardpoints also help. My Awesome's head TAG laser does the trick, as do the high arm energy hard points on Stalkers.
3. Sufficient tubes. A lot more mechs mount AMS these days, so larger salvos are the way to go. Yes, LRM5s are tighter but are also much more vulnerable to AMS.

The energy hardpoints are all mounted far too low on an Atlas, and it's just too slow and unwieldy to get into good firing positions and move. A well-played LRM mech does not just sit behind a hill and fire at anything it can lock. A well-played LRM mech is trying to get its own locks, lighting them up with TAG, and repositioning as the combat lines shift and/or based on terrain.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Zeede, on 05 May 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

If you read Victor's excellently flawed guide to LRMs

Fixed that for you.

Victors guide had and has a lot of good points in it - but they are by far not the absolute laws he made them out to be - and in several of the cases there were far more exceptions to the rules than otherwise.

Edit: added emphasis

Edited by Shar Wolf, 05 May 2014 - 11:59 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Shar Wolf, on 05 May 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Victors guide had and has a lot of good points in it - but they are by far not the absolute laws he made them out to be - and in several of the cases there were far more exceptions to the rules than otherwise.

Of note - remember that it was written before the LRM speed buff. The LRM assault boat is considerably more effective now than it was at the slower speed. LRMishers gained some from the buff - LRM boats gained considerably more. (since they work better at longer ranges & have more trouble manuvering so that the target can't get to cover)

[Jon Gotham]

The only bad thing about things like this is.....
If your team's assaults are Lrm boats. that means someone else is going to have to tackle the enemy assaults. that means heavy mechs and medium mechs.
Mediums will most likely get troll alpha'd very fast, leaving the heavy mechs who still can't go toe to toe. Don't forget enemy team will have medium/heavy mechs to back their assaults up....if your lrm assault can't kill what your smaller, weaker team mates are stalling quickly enough it'll be a roll.

Someone has to engage the enemy directly, might as well be the mechs with the most armour and internals....
There are better lrm platforms, faster more agile more FLEXIBLE ones. a guy above me said "I had alot of fun with my Atlas RS LRM40 build - I don't care what people think of my builds. " which is all fine and well, it is a game and it should be fun but you could very well be dooming your lighter team mates so you can have that fun.
It is a team game, you DO have responsibility to your team mates-wether you want ot see it or not.