517 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Jin Ma, on 28 April 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

i wouldn't call it combat or even gameplay. no shots had been fired at that point except for the arty

One Arty strike could have wiped out my Entire Company in Korea... without the chance of return fire from us. That is how Arty works. Here I can take two strikes and call you cheap for using it or continue to do you harm till I die or win.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 April 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

One Arty strike could have wiped out my Entire Company in Korea... without the chance of return fire from us. That is how Arty works.

Don't go there or people will bring up how real targeting cams don't shake but in MWO they do because video games.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

So hold on.

Re-read what you wrote Joe. That's a strawman and you're a better guy than that.

Not always MisChief. I throw a strawman sometimes. When I feel like that is how it would be. Tell me we have not seen our fair share of players calling this that or the other OP. As I have said I have seen Alphas be shaved down from the 90s to 25-30 and still I read 30 damage is OP. Strawman it may be But I won't retract it cause I do believe it to be the way things work around here.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 April 2014 - 10:29 AM.

[Kyle Wright]

Okay,

So I spent the better part of the last hour going through and reading every single dang post... jesus christ that was taxing on the brain.

There are two sides in this argument. Those who believe the modules are fine as is as they dont seem to be effected as much by them, and those who think damage is fine, but they need a nerf in form of cooldown or spread.

In one post OP, you stated to me that you agree that if people bunch up they deserved to be arty or air striked. I agree.

ill even go to the extent of saying that yes they are Op compared to other modules. They are free firepower as one of the SwK guys pointed out with no repercussion for use. In 12-mans yes they are pretty much standard issue as its a way to break death balls or keep poptarts down somewhat.

If a nerf was to be done:
-Actually make the command console useful, in which case you need one or mechs with a command console to be able to call in arty. if that mech(s) is destroyed then you lose communication with airfield and off map artillery batteries.

- Spread idea, increase spacing of the shells that impact. gives reason to use a module slot to get higher accuracy. As far as airstrikes maybe limit the number of shell that are dropped at the same damage as current. Sounds nuts, but if modern fighter jets can it a garage door target with munitions flying couple thousand feet and at close to mach speeds then futuristic aerofighters should in theory be better. Just limit the munition payload and maybe require tag or UAV needed to accuratly drop in a location, other wise randomize a chance that your pilot misses the target do to miscomunication of target area. Get less damage spread amongst multiple units, but those that are hit may take a little more.

Redsmoke, maybe not enough warning. I could see a warning like the missile warning say something like incoming arty or enemy aircraft so many seconds out? Futuristic Radar should be able to track aircraft and projectiles. Airstrikes, maybe target the aerofighter and shoot them down or throw them off course ability. ( good role for jagers as they are suppose to be air defense units from what I know of cannon).


As far as comparing these consumable to other modules, I feel you can't for the simple fact no other modules deal damage to enemy forces.

Lights and mediums that use these to compliment there small weapons load outs is fine by me. i look at them aas a forward observer in some aspect.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 April 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Not always MisChief. I throw a strawman sometimes. When I feel like that is how it would be. Tell me we have not seen our fair share of players calling this that or the other OP. As I have said I have seen Alphas be shaved down from the 90s to 25-30 and still I read 30 damage is OP. Strawman it may be But I won't retract it cause I do believe it to be the way things work around here.

Don't forget, 30 PP FLD is better than 70 spread FLD.

Arty is 40 FLD which is PP, but you can't aim that. It has splash damage on top of that.

Ten AC40s from the sky which can kill a untouched 100 ton machine, ignoring all the armor available.

Just not right for game balance, more suited to a more casual game.

[Jin Ma]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 April 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

One Arty strike could have wiped out my Entire Company in Korea... without the chance of return fire from us. That is how Arty works. Here I can take two strikes and call you cheap for using it or continue to do you harm till I die or win.

yeah a nuke can also destroy an entire city. but nobody calls that good gameplay

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

So your opinion is that it's just not 'hardcore' enough. Okay. Maybe a 'thinking mans shooter' isn't the place for you.

Why should "hardcore" and "thinking man's shooter" be mutually exclusive, when I can have both?

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Maybe you're in the wrong game?

Considering I am quite enjoying myself -- a lot, actually -- I am sure I am in the right game.

Are you?

Edited by Mystere, 28 April 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[Peter2000]

The problem with Arty/Air is that it is not just effective against blobs, but is absolutely devastating to single 'Mechs. I've been standing away from the team, when someone dropped an arty against me (not behind me, but hitting me), which conceals the smoke for a few seconds (long enough not to get away) and lost 30% of my health in an Assault 'Mech because of insane concentrated damage and bad luck with the RNG. This happens often, and it is almost as gamechanging as one-shotting someone with an RNG arty headshot.

They're absurdly broken (comp matches with arty/air enabled see a huge percentage of damage coming from those sources alone), and need to be fixed. Increase the area, number of shells, delay, smoke visibility, cooldown all by at least 100%, and reduce damage per shell proportionately, to compensate. This will allow them to break blobs without being the single strongest weapon in the game against a single target, too (as they currently are).

Edited by Peter2000, 28 April 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Sorry I don't know who said it, but taking the damage from arty/airstrikes away from the player's stats who used it is the best idea i've heard. I'd bet they wouldn't be used 1/100th of the times it is now. Which kinda goes to the point that it is used only as a weapon, no tatical use what so ever. It's just a module that does aoe damage. No checks or balances, just a module that does damage. No point to be in this game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jin Ma, on 28 April 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

yeah a nuke can also destroy an entire city. but nobody calls that good gameplay

Don't we have Nukes yet? Also CBT Nukes don't quite destroy whole cities... Unless you are talking the Peacekeeper.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 April 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I've seen several ideas regardining decoy or dum-dum arty launches to add some much needed tactics to an already stale format, but when you think about it the strikes are so effective the way they are now there's no reason to use anything else. That alone should be a HUGE red flag for any designer. (unless the main intention behind the item's effectiveness is to force a currency sink)

Edited by lockwoodx, 28 April 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 28 April 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Don't forget, 30 PP FLD is better than 70 spread FLD.

Arty is 40 FLD which is PP, but you can't aim that. It has splash damage on top of that.

Ten AC40s from the sky which can kill a untouched 100 ton machine, ignoring all the armor available.

Just not right for game balance, more suited to a more casual game.

I'm not forgetting any of that. 10 AC40s that Can hit me... I survived two of those in one game... If I were hit by 12 of those strikes it would be my fault I was that far out in the open. I don't blame the enemy cause I make a mistake.

[Mystere]

Bobzilla, on 28 April 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Sorry I don't know who said it, but taking the damage from arty/airstrikes away from the player's stats who used it is the best idea i've heard. I'd bet they wouldn't be used 1/100th of the times it is now. Which kinda goes to the point that it is used only as a weapon, no tatical use what so ever. It's just a module that does aoe damage. No checks or balances, just a module that does damage. No point to be in this game.

I have no problem with removing artillery and air strike damage from my stats. It's not what I really use it for anyway. That is just gravy as far as I am concerned.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mystere, on 28 April 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Why should "hardcore" and "thinking man's shooter" be mutually exclusive, when I can have both?
Considering I am quite enjoying myself -- a lot, actually -- I am sure I am in the right game.

Are you?

I think he got you on a technicality here...

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 April 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Not always MisChief. I throw a strawman sometimes. When I feel like that is how it would be. Tell me we have not seen our fair share of players calling this that or the other OP. As I have said I have seen Alphas be shaved down from the 90s to 25-30 and still I read 30 damage is OP. Strawman it may be But I won't retract it cause I do believe it to be the way things work around here.

I don't disagree, but don't cross the streams Ray!

The steady reduction of direct fire weapons to uniformity is another topic and one deserving of an argument. The nerfs to AC5s and 2s, while I like some of the concepts of (AC5 *should* be superior to AC2, 10s to 5s and 20s to 10s, not some goofy 'we're all ACs, just good for different things'. AC20s should scare the crap out of people, AC5s should be what you put on a mech that can't fit a 10 or a 20 but need the low-heat, stead damage at range) have not really improved the game much. The AC2 range nerf... I just.... I dunno. Give it a DPS of 2.33, give it its range back. The 5s are in a good spot now. 10s need to be faster, 20s need a bit of their speed back. Leave the range low, don't care, but make them something that can blow a leg of a locust reliably.

All of which is unrelated to the fact that Arty/Airstrike need to have a delay between firing rounds and probably needs a small scale back on splash, or some other *small* tweaks to fit it with other modules. Hill climbing needs a huge buff, most modules could use a buff. The weapon modules are laughable.

You need to keep the topics separate though or you end up with salient points lost in the static. A justification for ignoring one becomes a justification for ignoring the other.

You can tone arty/airstrike back a bit and not thus justify nerfing ACs.

Mystere, on 28 April 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Why should "hardcore" and "thinking man's shooter" be mutually exclusive, when I can have both?




Considering I am quite enjoying myself -- a lot, actually -- I am sure I am in the right game.

Are you?

I am - it just has some balance issues, which fortunately can be fixed. Like by toning Arty fire rate down a bit. *ZAP*

I would also say 1-shot-1-kill isn't hardcore. It's sorta the opposite; it makes it easier, not harder. That's why the sniper rifle is generally the 'easy' weapon. It's easier to use cammo, hide and headshot someone than run-and-gun them with a battle rifle of some sort.

So see, you can have both! It just involves less 1-shot-1-kill content and rely more on consistent performance

Edited by MischiefSC, 28 April 2014 - 11:00 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 28 April 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

And what do you think people do? They put in Adv Zoom or Adv Decay depending on what they are running, then they fill the other two spots with Strikes.

Yup, in all 5 (of 100+) Mech chassis that can handle more than 3 slots (those have to be Mastered btw).

So the odds of any Mech having Adv Zoom, Adv Decay and Air and Arty are very limited. Why limit the usefulness of our limited slots any further?

Mystere, on 28 April 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

Hold a second there mister! I'm not for removing anything that currently exists in this game. So I don't know where this is coming from.

As for LRMS, all I can say is: LET IT RAIN! The most recent nerf was absolutely unnecessary as far as I was concerned.

Sorry, I was just being OBTUSE as that seems to be the "trending thing" around here.

Don;t like Rain, bring an umbrella. LOL!

LRM's are fine...

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

I don't disagree, but don't cross the streams Ray!

The steady reduction of direct fire weapons to uniformity is another topic and one deserving of an argument. The nerfs to AC5s and 2s, while I like some of the concepts of (AC5 *should* be superior to AC2, 10s to 5s and 20s to 10s, not some goofy 'we're all ACs, just good for different things'. AC20s should scare the crap out of people, AC5s should be what you put on a mech that can't fit a 10 or a 20 but need the low-heat, stead damage at range) have not really improved the game much. The AC2 range nerf... I just.... I dunno. Give it a DPS of 2.33, give it its range back. The 5s are in a good spot now. 10s need to be faster, 20s need a bit of their speed back. Leave the range low, don't care, but make them something that can blow a leg of a locust reliably.

All of which is unrelated to the fact that Arty/Airstrike need to have a delay between firing rounds and probably needs a small scale back on splash, or some other *small* tweaks to fit it with other modules. Hill climbing needs a huge buff, most modules could use a buff. The weapon modules are laughable.

You need to keep the topics separate though or you end up with salient points lost in the static. A justification for ignoring one becomes a justification for ignoring the other.

You can tone arty/airstrike back a bit and not thus justify nerfing ACs.


I am - it just has some balance issues, which fortunately can be fixed. Like by toning Arty fire rate down a bit. *ZAP*

Fair enough. One of the things I have suggested few times is that Arty gets more accurate the more you refine the splash zone. Arty has been known to hit the spotter by accident give it some of these drawbacks. How often would we see arty if we had a chance of it dropping on friendlies instead of the enemy only!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 April 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[Almond Brown]

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Nobody here is going all QQ. You're making false comparisons and hyperbole. All anyone here is talking about is increasing cooldown, possibly changes to splash range or time to target, or possibly increasing projectiles while decreasing damage.

Mostly I'm good with just increasing cooldown. 30 seconds would be good. 20 hits of 20 with smaller splash? That'd be awesome too and stop headshots, though I admit those are funny as hell.

other stuff

If a Poll was taken, and everyone answered truthfully, not likely btw, agenda's and all, the # of deaths by HS with Air/Arty would pale in comparison to those of other weapons.

Just the other night. Match started, and Boom, one dead on the other side. It was a collective WTF (both sides) and then the text came in. "Sorry Head-shot, " The game carried on, no further fuss.

So given that, whatever weapon(s) caused that poor bastishes death should be removed from MWO.

If it cause head-shots, consensus is it sucks the fun out. Or is it just weapons that some don't want to have to spend C-bills on that do it that suck the fun?

So yes, it is all QQ and whining. All head shot possibilities go or all stay. A select group do not get to select, sorry.

And when the "select few" can do that kind of selective BS, then you can kiss MWO dead.

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 April 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Fair enough. One of the things I have suggested few times is that Arty gets more accurate the more you refine the splash zone. Arty has been known to hit the spotter by accident give it some of these drawbacks. How often would we see arty if we had a chance of it dropping on friendlies instead of the enemy only!

LOL that you'd mention that! The terrain clipping on this game can be so bad sometimes, I have accidentally dropped artillery on myself a couple of times.

[Almond Brown]

Jin Ma, on 28 April 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Riduculous easy button.

no max range, can remove a component from a mech.

i've lost my arm to this, my leg.

ive been killed within 3 minutes of match start because i got legged and my ammo was in the leg.

Omg dawg

Games fault every time. I wish the GD Mech Bay would stop putting ammo where I don't want it ffs.