918 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

can anyone answer why the teams DIDN'T use heros... of course you can't cause you wanted the biggest advantage or were you using your crappier mechs in a finals?

that's what vass is getting at, free players can't be top tier and your decks are proving it. Now say if HOL were to use free mechs against the steel using heros would you excpet? would you win?

if you achieved both then there'd be no argument but as the tourney shows... you guys can't compete without them for fear of the other team using them and having the advantage, your choice PROVES that right?

i never believed this game was P2W but damn if you want to be on top looks like you need 8 pay mechs on your side to win comps...

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 31 May 2014 - 03:45 AM.

[warner2]

This hero 'mech thing is wide of the mark. There are 22 hero 'mechs and most of them aren't used in large numbers in competitive play. It's only 2 of them that are so popular and only 1 that is considered to be the best of the best, the Dragon Slayer. The reasons for that 'mech being so good are deep rooted and go to the very core mechanics of the game. It's a 'mech that is in the sweet spot based on the current game mechanics.

What PGI can usefully do is balance the Dragon Slayer. They could fix its jump animation, for starters. If they really want less spamming of the best chassis in their tournaments, and remember the Shadow Hawk was seen in large numbers, add restrictions like other leagues do, such as no more than 2 of any chassis (or whatever).

If you ban hero 'mechs you are starting that they are by design supposed to be better than the CBill 'mechs. I don't think that's the case, although PGI has a balance to be struck because they want them to be bought. I believe they want them to be viable, different, and attractive but not flat out better. It's only the Dragon Slayer that is really flat out better (even the Ember has the Jenner and the Raven to complement it).

P.S. Clan 'mechs will be like a grenade going off in this game so if you think you've all got balance issues now hold onto your hats

Edited by warner2, 31 May 2014 - 03:47 AM.

[warner2]

Vassago Rain, on 31 May 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

No, it's paying to have an advantage.

And the DS and ember give such a huge advantage, the top tier teams don't have a problem dropping 30 dollars on the 6500 MC package for it.

I think it's real sad that you're trying to defend this. Someone should compile a list of the most used mechs, so we can see how many embers and slayers were actually employed.

Vassago, the Dragon Slayer and the Ember are good by accident. PGI don't appear to play their game very much, they aren't very good at balancing it, either. There are 20 hero 'mechs that are not as good as those two. It's not P2W by design. At worst, it's P2W by accident.

All that is needed is a little re-balancing of those 2 problematic hero 'mechs.

[Eglar]

GalaxyBluestar, on 31 May 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

can anyone answer why the teams DIDN'T use heros... of course you can't cause you wanted the biggest advantage or were you using your crappier mechs in a finals?

that's what vass is getting at, free players can't be top tier and your decks are proving it. Now say if HOL were to use free mechs against the steel using heros would you excpet? would you win?

if you achieved both then there'd be no argument but as the tourney shows... you guys can't compete without them for fear of the other team using them and having the advantage, your choice PROVES that right?

i never believed this game was P2W but damn if you want to be on top looks like you need 8 pay mechs on your side to win comps...

Just because some of our players prefer playing Victors (heimdelight) Cataphracts (Schoppenhauer) Shadowhawks (Celyth) doesn't make them p2w but rather individual preference.

CTF-3D	kaffeangst	70
CTF-3D	Proton	70
CTF-3D	Heimdelight	70
CTF-3D	BananaNutMuffins	70
CTF-3D	Schopenhauer	70
CTF-3D	Eglar	70
CTF-3D	Trevelyas	70
SHD	Celyth	55
JR7-F	Adiuvo	35
JR7-F	Wispsy	35
JR7-F	P33p3rs	35
CTF-3D	Rickrom	70

Edited by Eglar, 31 May 2014 - 03:58 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Eglar, on 31 May 2014 - 03:51 AM, said:

Just because some of our players prefer playing Victors (heimdelight) Cataphracts (Schoppenhauer) Shadowhawks (Celyth) doesn't make them p2w but rather individual preference.

so they happen to not prefer the freemechs which can poptart just as well... or just maybe some mechs are more equal than others?

[Eglar]

GalaxyBluestar, on 31 May 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

so they happen to not prefer the freemechs which can poptart just as well... or just maybe some mechs are more equal than others?

Yes the CTF-3D performs just as good as the Dragonslayer, especially if you can fielld one more 3D instead of a light. Considering that we were going to Brawl, we did prefer Embers but in a "normal" match the Jenner-Fs do have a significant advantage in both 1v1 Light Vs Light and Medium Range Harrasing.

[Zerex]

Rubidiy, on 31 May 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

Sorry, Z, but cann't agree with that.
Dragon Slayer and Ember are P2W. It was obvious on day one of their release. Yes, jump-sniping may be nerfed one day completely, but does not cancel the fact that Ds was P2W for many months. All these weapon tweaks are supposed to make players buy new mechs over and over again. But for now DS and Ember have exceptional fighting capabilities compared to any other mech and this is a definition of P2W.
If you want to know at what stage a free-to-play game is, look at ammount of P2W in it. The fact that 4 best teams used multiple ammounts of DSs and Embers in semifinals and finals of ultimate MWo tournament means a lot...
This game is definitely on the other side of it's hill.

While i know what ur saying Rubidy and agree to a point, the DS and Ember are the best variant of their chassis it is not a clear pay to win line being crossed, ur not paying for damage but u are getting a better grouping of those weapons for less misses and/or more pin point in the case of the DS. IF the Dragon slayer is classed as P2W today and the PPC nerf comes tomorrow making the DS a non viable comp build is it still classed a s P2W? i don't see how something can be P2W 1 day and not the next, this to me more of problem that the game isn't quite balanced at the minute and a few mechs which benefit from this are Hero mechs.

I guess it comes more down to where u feel the line is for P2W, for me this game hasn't crossed it yet because those advantages that make these mechs seen a P2W could pulled at any second, any one remember when this the case for the Ilya? are we still classing that as P2W?

Edited by Zerex, 31 May 2014 - 04:03 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Zerex, on 31 May 2014 - 03:58 AM, said:

While i know what ur saying Rubidy and agree to a point, the DS and Ember are the variant of their chassis it is not a clear pay to win line being crossed, ur not paying for damage but u are getting a better grouping of those weapons for less misses and/or more pin point in the case of the DS. IF the Dragon slayer is classed as P2W today and the PPC nerf comes tomorrow making the DS a non viable comp build is it still classed a s P2W? i don't see how something can be P2W 1 day and not the next, this to me more of problem that the game isn't quite balanced at the minute and a few mechs which benefit from this are Hero mechs.

I guess it comes more down to where u feel the line is for P2W, for me this game hasn't crossed it yet because those advantages that make these mechs seen a P2W could pulled at any second, any one remember when this the case for the Ilya? are we still classing that as P2W?

When two robots make up over half the mechs fielded in the grand finals, and they are both cashmechs, there's a chance they are pretty pay to win.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Eglar, on 31 May 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

Yes the CTF-3D performs just as good as the Dragonslayer

so why didn't you field more? is it because DS are in fact better or what? both teams tried to use as many as possible {steels more than lords!} so it's not really plausible trying to make out the 3d is just as good cause you would've used them more. DS has the armour, maneuverability, the jjs and best hardpoints {types and locations} that's why it was spammed, try denying it with logic and you're just saying we fielded the wrong mechs for the finals.

i'm not blaming you guys, it's pgi's fault for creating a meta and a mech which tops everything else and it just so happens to be the paywall one. if you guys could battle again with just 3d's against steels DS mob and win, the argument would close but i believe it's not possible... or you would've used those 3d's in the finals.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 31 May 2014 - 04:12 AM.

[Rubidiy]

Zerex, on 31 May 2014 - 03:58 AM, said:

IF the Dragon slayer is classed as P2W today and the PPC nerf comes tomorrow making the DS a non viable comp build is it still classed a s P2W? i don't see how something can be P2W 1 day and not the next,

I've explained it in my previous post. Changing P2W mechs is more than profitable for developers. Otherwise you can just buy 1 P2W OP mech and never care to buy anything else. If balance changes from time to time, you're forced to buy these meta-mechs to keep your performance on a same level.
PGI cann't release mechs that prevail on everything that was before them over and over again. It will lead to excessive fighting capabilities. So they nerf here and there to highlight specific mechs. Do you really think it is logical that 2ton Jump-jets are worthless, while 1ton JJs are viable??? I'd love to see the numbers of DS purchases before and after Highlander's JJs were nerfed into shite.

[Zerex]

Vassago Rain, on 31 May 2014 - 04:00 AM, said:

When two robots make up over half the mechs fielded in the grand finals, and they are both cashmechs, there's a chance they are pretty pay to win.

And if the Nerf comes tomorrow are they still pay to win? while i agree these 2 mechs are the best of their class/weight the teams are like the mechs its better to boat that have 1 of each mech for a roll, so if we're going brawling, we go full brawl, take our game against SJR last night, that was a full tilt full brawl, those SHD 2D's excel at point blank, it might have been better to run all SHD 2D's for us (but that could mean ur dropping 100 tons lighter than the other team). If SJR didn't get that 10 second heads up on us it could have gone to the wire. so that would mean a team running "free" mechs would have beat a team using alot of "P2W" mechs, how does this work into your P2W theory?

Hats off to a great game last night with SJR really enjoyed it and getting in that brawl but you countered so well, well played. maybe next time

[Eglar]

GalaxyBluestar, on 31 May 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

so why didn't you field more? is it because DS are in fact better or what? both teams tried to use as many as possible {steels more than lords!} so it's not really plausible trying to make out the 3d is just as good cause you would've used them more. DS has the armour, maneuverability, the jjs and best hardpoints {types and locations} that's why it was spammed, try denying it with logic and you're just saying we fielded the wrong mechs for the finals.

i'm not blaming you guys, it's pgi's fault for creating a meta and a mech which tops everything else and it just so happens to be the paywall one. if you guys could battle again with just 3d's against steels DS mob and win, the argument would close but i believe it's not possible... or you would've used those 3d's in the finals.

Eglar, on 31 May 2014 - 03:51 AM, said:

Just because some of our players prefer playing Victors (heimdelight) Cataphracts (Schoppenhauer) Shadowhawks (Celyth) doesn't make them p2w but rather individual preference.

There's your answer, the question could also have been "why don't you put aduivo into a Dragonslayer" or "Why don't you put Proton into a Jenner".

Heimdelight would prolly tell you that the DS is more durable, faster. While schoppenhauer will say that the 3D has superior Hardpoint Locations and has a way better Poptarting profile.

People will want to play the mech they've been playing for the last half year. And here, my point still stands:
8xCTF3D 1x SDH 3xLights would be just as good as what we fielded.

Edited by Eglar, 31 May 2014 - 04:26 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Zerex, on 31 May 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

And if the Nerf comes tomorrow are they still pay to win? while i agree these 2 mechs are the best of their class/weight the teams are like the mechs its better to boat that have 1 of each mech for a roll, so if we're going brawling, we go full brawl, take our game against SJR last night, that was a full tilt full brawl, those SHD 2D's excel at point blank, it might have been better to run all SHD 2D's for us (but that could mean ur dropping 100 tons lighter than the other team). If SJR didn't get that 10 second heads up on us it could have gone to the wire. so that would mean a team running "free" mechs would have beat a team using alot of "P2W" mechs, how does this work into your P2W theory?

Hats off to a great game last night with SJR really enjoyed it and getting in that brawl but you countered so well, well played. maybe next time

I don't know if you've noticed, but the dragonslayer has been the OP facesmashers since it released, but no one cared because PGI has never claimed to have a serious competition fair and balanced tournament before this.

I can personally attest that many weekends, I don't want to drop on assault or skirmish, because I know I'll keep randoming into 4 man dragonslayers.

[Jyzene]

Sooooo... two weeks of getting out of bed at around 3am are finally over. I think i need some days of vacation now

First things come first. Congratulations to the House of Lords, who were the favorites to win the tournament to begin with. But I think I am speaking for most when I say that it was so much closer in the end then expected.

A big shoutout to the Antares Scorpions, who agreed to play a match for third place vs the 228th and all the other comiited teams who made that tournament possible.

Also big thanks to the livestreamers, commentators and all the other people behind the organisation of the tournament. You did a hell of a job.

Personally, I still feel honored that the 228th came up on Beadhanger, Shredhead and me and asked us to participate in this tournament.
And if I learned just one thing, hanging out with that bunch of positively crazy people: dont you ever click on a link queenblade posted!

gg all of you! Until next time.

[Deadfire]

Jyzene, on 31 May 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

Personally, I still feel honored that the 228th came up on Beadhanger, Shredhead and me and asked us to participate in this tournament.
And if I learned just one thing, hanging out with that bunch of positively crazy people: dont you ever click on a link queenblade posted!

Our symbol is a Iron Cross after all, it would be a shame if we didn't have some germans to add some overengineering to our drops.

Just as well we aren't crazy, it would mean we would need to be tested.... and well we all know who failed the don't click Queenblade's links test.

Thanks for killing your sleep time for us, hope you get some rest. Make sure to join us after

Edited by Deadfire, 31 May 2014 - 08:31 AM.

[Modo44]

Rubidiy, on 31 May 2014 - 04:13 AM, said:

I've explained it in my previous post. Changing P2W mechs is more than profitable for developers. Otherwise you can just buy 1 P2W OP mech and never care to buy anything else. If balance changes from time to time, you're forced to buy these meta-mechs to keep your performance on a same level.

You are giving Paul too much credit.

[Wispsy]

Vassago Rain, on 31 May 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

I don't know if you've noticed, but the dragonslayer has been the OP facesmashers since it released, but no one cared because PGI has never claimed to have a serious competition fair and balanced tournament before this.

I can personally attest that many weekends, I don't want to drop on assault or skirmish, because I know I'll keep randoming into 4 man dragonslayers.

Nope. Dragonslayer has been most op since the big highlander nerfs. Now Victors are the super mobile jumping assaults and the asymmetrical load out makes tactics and positioning very simple.

We used 4DS 3Cataphracts 2Embers 1Shd 1Jenner 1Spider. So our choice of 2 extra cataphracts for one less Victor and a Jenner and a Spider instead of 2 more Embers still managed to win against their extra p2w?

Balance is constantly changing, just PGI take it slowly for the most part. Assaults are midway through nerfs (I sure hope it continues Victors torso twist is still just crazy) and at this point in time the Victor fell into the top spot as those above it get slowly knocked down. All our DS pilots happen to be old Highlander heroes who simply picked the closest thing once it was nerfed.


228 had more Cataphracts and less DS and came very close to beating us. RJF even beat SiGs p2w deck with all cataphracts...


Lights are actually pretty well balanced in my opinion, except the Jenner has too much ct which has never been fixed.

[SpiralFace]

I think the only egregious thing right now is the dynamic between jump and none jump mechs across the board.

It goes beyond jump sniping itself and goes more into the fact that in order to even begin to have a competative machine, you need JJ's.

Its one of the main common denominators in all of this beyond pinpoint. You get too much for too little with litterally ZERO downsides. Which is a problem that stems all the way from the Locusts all the way up to the Altas'.

JJ's should be a force multiplier, but not to the point that they are now. There should be some given and take across ALL classes to use them. Because a mech's value should revolve around the fact that it can equip JJ's or ECM. No matter what the weight class.

[Ngamok]

Vassago Rain, on 31 May 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

I can personally attest that many weekends, I don't want to drop on assault or skirmish, because I know I'll keep randoming into 4 man dragonslayers.

http://cloud-2.steam...DA2EEBC65ED7C9/

What's the difference? Weapons are in the exact same place as the DS. DS gets a little more top speed, 1 ton JJs instead of 2 but a little less armor. People who can excel in the DS can do it with the HGN-733C as well, case in point screenshot.

Edit: I am not taking into consideration any weight limitations btw like the tournament.

Edited by Ngamok, 31 May 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[Ngamok]

Wispsy, on 31 May 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

Balance is constantly changing, just PGI take it slowly for the most part. Assaults are midway through nerfs (I sure hope it continues Victors torso twist is still just crazy) and at this point in time the Victor fell into the top spot as those above it get slowly knocked down. All our DS pilots happen to be old Highlander heroes who simply picked the closest thing once it was nerfed.

It's funny you say this because lots of people to this day still complain that the Victor turns exactly the same as an Atlas. You can look at the threads in the General section. This is why I hope the Devs never listen to people because everyone will tell you something different. It takes tournaments like this to get them watching and see instead and take their data from it.