162 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

AssaultPig, on 10 May 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

to be clear, that was a response to the suggestion that there be .5 seconds or whatever of shake at the start of the descent. I don't really think that would matter, unless you make it last so long that you functionally can't jump-snipe anyway.

as far as applying the thrust change to other mechs, I guess I'd be in favor of it, but also don't think it's really a solution to the problem. You can do relatively low DPS and still be quite effective if (as in the case of jump sniping) there is little to no return fire (also, if you have a high alpha.)

this upcoming tournament will be a good testbed, I suppose. We'll see how many non-jump-snipe mechs get used by the winning teams.

The short-term DPS of such builds is a big part of the problem. If a team tries to push on them, they have the necessary short-term burst damage to hold strongly against such a push. The game would play out differently if they *didn't* have the necessary short-term burst damage, then they'd be forced to abandon their position, retreat, regroup, etc., to buy time to cool off.

A 2xPPC + 2xAC5 build with 15 DHS and a CoolShot can fire 9 consecutive salvos back-to-back-to-back on a heat neutral map before it overheats and shuts down. That's kind've a problem.... caused by the massive heat cap we have.

And even though external DHS in this game aren't true doubles, once you factor in pilot efficiencies increasing dissipation by 15%, in MWO 15 DHS are actually superior to having 15 TT "true" DHS. In TT, 15 DHS would bleed off 30 heat in 10 seconds. In MWO, 15 DHS bleeds off 31.05 heat in 10 seconds (that's from 20*1.15 + 7*1.15 = 31.05).

If we had a hard heat cap of 30, removed pilot efficiencies affecting heat cap and dissipation, and made DHS true double heat sinks, and removed CoolShots, you'd shut down on the second consecutive salvo. You'd *have* to retreat and reposition against opponents closing in on you, since you wouldn't have enough short-term burst DPS to cripple or kill them before they were on top of you.

Edited by YueFei, 10 May 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

AssaultPig, on 10 May 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

to be clear, that was a response to the suggestion that there be .5 seconds or whatever of shake at the start of the descent. I don't really think that would matter, unless you make it last so long that you functionally can't jump-snipe anyway.

Then you are, for whatever reason, not thinking it through. The window now to shoot as one drops is actually pretty small, because the ideal is to just clear your guns from cover, drop the jets, fire and drop to cover.

A .5 second of shake AFTER cutting the thrust forces them to jump higher, thus exposing more of their mech, and for a longer period, thus balancing the risk/reward ratio, which is currently very skewed in their favor. In fact, to achieve the height needed to do it, would likely force jump capable mechs to equip more than the 1-2 JJs that are customary to Jumpsnipers now, so you also have more mass devoted to the JJs, not ammo, armor, heatsinks.

Combine that with the proposal NGNG put out to increase leg damage, scaling up as you get heavier, unless one uses their JJs to feather their landing, and you further add to the degree of difficulty, and exposure of the mech as they can't just jump and drop anymore, without causing serious damage to their legs.

The thing is, from the tone of your posts, you don't really want jumpsniping mitigated, you simply want it gone, which is a totally unrealistic, and overreactionary approach. The proper approach is to find the point where it is still a viable tactic, without it being the dominant tactic. But I don't think that is what you want, TBH, and thus your argument. If I am wrong, my apologies.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 May 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

actually, yeah, most of the old timers on here would like that, actually.

Or heat causing the pilot to black out. Yeah there are a lot of things that would be nice, but somehow I don't think the typical casual player is going to want, or enjoy that much depth.

I'm all for falling damage, proper heat scaling (and all the adverse effects), skidding on pavement, falling over while climbing/decending hills because you have to compensate for the gyros and so on.

That's not even "realism", just standard TT rules. Utlimately, I'd love a Mech game with Falcon 4.0's depth on 100%. Never gonna happen though.

[GreyGriffin]

I've got an idea. What if all movement caused reticle shake? I mean, walking wouldn't have to do a lot, just shake around a little bit. But running and jumping should cause a lot. Obviously, it should gradually change depending on how you're handling your throttle/jump jets.

But all this reticle shaking all over the place would just be really distracting. So why not just make your targeting reticle expand and contract based on the range your shot should land in?

Brilliant. Why haven't I thought of it before?

[Mcgral18]

Aresye, on 10 May 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

This isn't WoT, and we're talking 31st century targeting systems here.

Pinpoint accuracy is not some new thing in the MW series. You move your reticle over a target, it hits where you aim.

You want a counter-strike like game where you fire a good shot only to have the game decide, "Nope, you're gonna miss that one?"

No. F*** that. I don't play MechWarrior so I can have the same firing mechanics as Call of Duty.

Increase TTL? This game already has like...double the armor. It already takes much longer to kill a mech on average than any other MW game. Maybe if people learned how to pilot their mechs properly, they wouldn't be getting their XL or back shot out in 10s.

You keep saying doubled armor....but you're forgetting our AC60s! For the most part, weapons have 3 times their refire rate compared to TT, with some being only 2 and others used to be 20. To say doubled armor is too much is forgetting weapons are still doing 150% damage WITH doubled armor.

And don't forget in battletech, most mechs are hundreds of years old, cobbled together and have a hard time hitting anything further than 500M. Modern weaponry surpasses that significantly.

Random CoF when standing still? No, I'd say leave it as is. Running at 100% throttle? Yep, don't expect everything to hit the same loonie sized hole. In fact....you might even hit all 3 torso's at 400M. Similar events when jumping. All weapons shouldn't converge on the same location when faced with those external forces.
Another option includes static weapons. That is very predictable and would require skill to place shots on the same location, unlike the current game. This could be "exploited" by certain mechs that have hardpoints located near each other. Is the DS one of those?

If you want a twitch shooter...that isn't supposed to be MWO. But it is, in some regards.

[WarZ]

XX Sulla XX, on 10 May 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

This might work well.

Not really. Good jump snipers would love this. Good jump sniping is not just going up, but also having some forward or backward momentum as well, not enough to lose your cover, but enough to make you EVEN HARDER to hit on top of already being very hard to hit. Arcing through the air is harder to hit than straight up and down. You learn this pretty quick.

So again this would be a "it might work" fix that doesnt actually fix the problem, and in some cases make it even worse.

Edited by WarZ, 11 May 2014 - 01:03 AM.

[Aresye]

YueFei, on 10 May 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

Yeah, just take your total damage divided by matches played, for a particular mech variant, under your "Battlemech Statistics" tab.

I always find it amusing when people say they average 400 to 600 damage in a particular mech variant. There shouldn't be such a wide range specified if they actually checked their stats. Some people are just too lazy to even do that, even though to post on the forums they are already logged in. =P

For example, for my most-played mech since the stat reset, the Centurion-AL, I have 90 matches played in it, with a total of 41,465 damage. That's 460 damage per match.

That might seem decent, except I know it's kinda bad, because an even more interesting stat than damage-per-match is *damage-per-minute*. See, the Centurion-AL runs hot, so I spend alot of time cooling off and not helping my team. My win/loss in that thing is 1.07. I have spent 10:35:59 time driving that thing. So if you take my total damage and divide by the time, you get 65 damage per minute. Simply put, I am not putting out alot of pressure on the enemy team. In evaluating my performance, I think I should spend more time giving the enemy a bad target to shoot at, even if I'm at the heat limit and not going to shoot. Absorbing some hits on my Centurion's arm / arm stump / shoulder will help alleviate pressure from my teammates, and hopefully compensate for my lack of DPS.

I believe damage-per-minute is a far better indicator of how active you are in a match and how much pressure you are putting into the enemy team.

Thanks for the info!



Alright, so I've upgraded myself to a Victor 9S with 2 PPC, 2 AC5, JJ, and all that glorious nonsense.

I'll be comparing the stats of my most commonly used CPLT-C1(F) vs the VTR-9S(C).

CPLT-C1(F)
Loadout: 3 ER Large
Matches Played: 302
Average Damage: 505
DPM: 71

VTR-9S(C)
Loadout: 2 PPC, 2 AC5
Matches Played: 29
Average Damage: 603
DPM: 80

Overall I'd say those stats aren't too surprising, given that 3 ER Large gives an alpha of 27 per shot, and the 2 PPC, 2 AC5 gives an alpha of 30. The intersection point comes in the form of weapon accuracy. The ER Large may be close when it comes to average damage and DPS, but a lot of times that damage is scattered across multiple areas, whereas the meta build is FLD, and it shows in the KDR ratio (although running a Catapult with hitscan weapons does require more exposure time).

Does it need a nerf? Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

To be quite honest, it really depends on the player. The meta definitely offers an advantage to players that already play well, but doesn't really give any advantages to newer players, or players that can't aim consistently. It doesn't seem to have that large of an impact on Win/Loss ratio (Ex: Orion w/ 100 matches: 2.16 vs Meta Highlander w/ 259: 2.08) (Ex2: Catapult w/ 302 matches: 1.74 vs Meta Shadowhawk w/ 333: 1.57).

Overall it's a loadout designed to maximize damage, but from what I've seen it has very little impact on a player's average damage (I'm willing to bet my VTR-9S will come down closer to 500 as time goes on), nor has a very large impact on the outcome of a game.

The problem happens when you have a coordinated drop of 1 or 2 premades on the same team that are all running the meta, which (given the plethora of other issues) is just more proof of a flawed matchmaking system.

*Edit*
And yes, I did buy 3 Victors (including MC for the champion) and mastered them all out just for the sake of seeing how much easier it would be. Overall it's not as fun as my Catapult, and most of the fun is just watching how many people complain in the chat and use it as an excuse for making poor decisions (like standing still in a light mech).

Edited by Aresye, 11 May 2014 - 02:47 AM.

[Tahribator]

I completely agree with the OP. While JJ nerfs have forced the metahumpers to downgrade to DS' from 100+ CT armored HGNs, it did a little to balance out poptarting with brawlers. AC5 nerfs barely hurt them and they switched to Gauss, and if the Gauss gets nerfed again they'll still find something else.

The problem is you can aim perfectly in the air, dump a huge alpha and dive into cover without any form of retaliation. This is such a huge advantage in MWO that invalidates any other build instantly. The metahumpers took a big hit when JJ shake was introduced until you touched the ground and they quickly "lobbied" for a comprimise, which in turn completely reversed any nerfs they suffered. It only hurt JJ brawlers in the end.

Like OP, I think you shouldn't aim perfectly while flying through the air. Disable convergence, reintroduce "shake until you touch the ground" and see how the "pro" meta people do. They'll go back to their Stalkers, which are even more boring to play and easier dispatched.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 11 May 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:

The problem happens when you have a coordinated drop of 1 or 2 premades on the same team that are all running the meta, which (given the plethora of other issues) is just more proof of a flawed matchmaking system.

truth.

Of course, fixing what ails MWO (short of a top 3 Dev transplant) is a multi-phase operation. I would disagree though about the use of Meta in lower tiers. It's true that for scrubs and n00bs, it matters little as the basics of the game are enough to keep them busy.

I would say (and pretty sure Gyrok and others would agree) that most Meta-Abuse happens in 2 areas though, yes the L33T Comp guys, which while making 12 mans boring (sorry, if jumpsnipe fests are your thing, can't say they are mine, though I don't want jump sniping gone, just not the clear go-to tactic it is right now), it is what it is (until they troll the PUG queue).

But in the mid levels, it is where the worst abuse of it happens. Good players will roll no matter what the meta is. We know this, but the basic learning curve of Poptarting is rather shallow, and the risk/reward, strongly weighted in it's favor. So adding a slightly higher degree of difficulty/risk, I don't think will impact top tier guys too much (slightly lower DPS, slightly more exposure, but that just balances the risk/reward ratio a little more) but it would remove the spamming of it almost entirely from the mid tiers, as most "Poptarts" (not to be confused with actual skilled, jump snipers) tend to be about as good as most Spider pilots really will turn out to be if they ever sort out hit registration.

Which is why I take a rather less aggressive, but (IMO) still substantive approach to jumpsniping in my recommendation.

Tahribator, on 11 May 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

I completely agree with the OP. While JJ nerfs have forced the metahumpers to downgrade to DS' from 100+ CT armored HGNs, it did a little to balance out poptarting with brawlers. AC5 nerfs barely hurt them and they switched to Gauss, and if the Gauss gets nerfed again they'll still find something else.

The problem is you can aim perfectly in the air, dump a huge alpha and dive into cover without any form of retaliation. This is such a huge advantage in MWO that invalidates any other build instantly. The metahumpers took a big hit when JJ shake was introduced until you touched the ground and they quickly "lobbied" for a comprimise, which in turn completely reversed any nerfs they suffered. It only hurt JJ brawlers in the end.

Like OP, I think you shouldn't aim perfectly while flying through the air. Disable convergence, reintroduce "shake until you touch the ground" and see how the "pro" meta people do. They'll go back to their Stalkers, which are even more boring to play and easier dispatched.

Actually, in many cases, the total nerfs to VTRs have them returning t HGNs at the upper tiers. Crazy, right? But if you have a choice of playing 2 mechs that handle like bricks (in a tactic that speed is not really of the essence), do you choose a 70-80 pt armored brick, or the 100+ pt armored brick, with 6-10 tons more weapons/armor and ammo to boot? Especially now that the VTR was triple agility nerfed, so it's one huge advantage (spreading damage easy via torso twisting and huge shoulders) is mostly gone?

[Aresye]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

So adding a slightly higher degree of difficulty/risk, I don't think will impact top tier guys too much (slightly lower DPS, slightly more exposure, but that just balances the risk/reward ratio a little more) but it would remove the spamming of it almost entirely from the mid tiers

That's sort of what I saw in the comparison to my Catapult ERLL build. Slightly lower DPS, and slightly more exposure.

Holy crap did we actually just agree on something?

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 11 May 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

That's sort of what I saw in the comparison to my Catapult ERLL build. Slightly lower DPS, and slightly more exposure.

Holy crap did we actually just agree on something?

looks like. I won't tell anyone, if you don't.

[Sarlic]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

truth.

Of course, fixing what ails MWO (short of a top 3 Dev transplant) is a multi-phase operation. I would disagree though about the use of Meta in lower tiers. It's true that for scrubs and n00bs, it matters little as the basics of the game are enough to keep them busy.

I would say (and pretty sure Gyrok and others would agree) that most Meta-Abuse happens in 2 areas though, yes the L33T Comp guys, which while making 12 mans boring (sorry, if jumpsnipe fests are your thing, can't say they are mine, though I don't want jump sniping gone, just not the clear go-to tactic it is right now), it is what it is (until they troll the PUG queue).

But in the mid levels, it is where the worst abuse of it happens. Good players will roll no matter what the meta is. We know this, but the basic learning curve of Poptarting is rather shallow, and the risk/reward, strongly weighted in it's favor. So adding a slightly higher degree of difficulty/risk, I don't think will impact top tier guys too much (slightly lower DPS, slightly more exposure, but that just balances the risk/reward ratio a little more) but it would remove the spamming of it almost entirely from the mid tiers, as most "Poptarts" (not to be confused with actual skilled, jump snipers) tend to be about as good as most Spider pilots really will turn out to be if they ever sort out hit registration.

Which is why I take a rather less aggressive, but (IMO) still substantive approach to jumpsniping in my recommendation.


Actually, in many cases, the total nerfs to VTRs have them returning t HGNs at the upper tiers. Crazy, right? But if you have a choice of playing 2 mechs that handle like bricks (in a tactic that speed is not really of the essence), do you choose a 70-80 pt armored brick, or the 100+ pt armored brick, with 6-10 tons more weapons/armor and ammo to boot? Especially now that the VTR was triple agility nerfed, so it's one huge advantage (spreading damage easy via torso twisting and huge shoulders) is mostly gone?

You should really quit moaning about VTR and Highlanders. Awesome i can get. Yesterday i played with a Highlander. He is a very good pilot considering the nerf. You can still deal when supported some good damage.

Also i had yesterday two VTR as my oppononents. They knew aside the nerf what they were doing. They were brawling right and how you should brawl with a VTR. They were top damage dealers.

Edited by Sarlic, 11 May 2014 - 03:27 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sarlic, on 11 May 2014 - 03:23 AM, said:

You should really quit moaning about VTR and Highlanders. Awesome i can get. Yesterday i played with a Highlander. He is a very good pilot considering the nerf.

Also i had yesterday two VTR as my oppononents. They knew aaide the nerf what they were doing. They were brawling right and how you should brawl with a VTR.

ah look....I got my own personal stalker, sniffing my crack like a puppy, how cute. Shame it's not just me who gets this, buttercup. But it's OK, someday you will actually know what you are talking about. Keep blustering until then. Now quiet, the grown ups are talking.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 May 2014 - 04:40 AM.

[Sarlic]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2014 - 03:25 AM, said:

ah look....I got my own personal stalker, sniffing my crack like a puppy, how cute. Shame it's not just me who gets this, buttercup. But it's OK, someday you will actually know what you are talking about. Keep blustering until then. Now quite, the grown ups are talking.

Not really. I have nothing against you. But i see you constantly getting back on the VTR nerf. Keep it in the other threads.

You sound more like a guy who intents to influence others that the VTR nerf is the end of the World.

Edited by Sarlic, 11 May 2014 - 03:32 AM.

[Lightfoot]

I know. Make everyone play MWO with a joystick. Seriously, part of the reason players Mouse-camp is it's the easiest way to manage the mech's movement with a mouse. Add some jump-jets and the Mouse players actually feel like they are moving their mechs around. Take the jump-jets away completely and half would still mouse-camp the the ridges and then complain about being cored when they aren't even moving the mech to avoid being cored.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lightfoot, on 11 May 2014 - 03:48 AM, said:

I know. Make everyone play MWO with a joystick. Seriously, part of the reason players Mouse-camp is it's the easiest way to manage the mech's movement with a mouse. Add some jump-jets and the Mouse players actually feel like they are moving their mechs around. Take the jump-jets away completely and half would still mouse-camp the the ridges and then complain about being cored when they aren't even moving the mech to avoid being cored.

Boy howdy I would be happy if my old precision pro sidewinder would work. Maybe some set up the config for them by now, I know it was a hot sloppy mess back in closed beta, but I always love the feel I get using it in mw2/3/4. And I don't get the "bad aim" bit...... Jumpsniping in my Victor in MW4 is simplicity itself. Heh. If people think the MWO version was too agile before they should run the mw4 version. Gundam! Lol.

[Captain Stiffy]

I can hit jump snipers most of the time more easily than they can hit me. I get plenty of actual kills just waiting for someone using jump jets to start to fall. So easy to hit at that moment and very easy to predict the parabola.

[East Indy]

Two changes:

1. Break up front-loaded convergence for ACs and PPCs with millisecond delays.

• Single weapons aren't affected.
  
• Stationary targets are still punished.
  
• It scales, meaning a million ACs still have to fire in sequence.
  
• Heat scale and velocity changes for these weapons can be removed.

2. Significant reticle shake whenever a 'Mech is airborne. Ascending, descending, whatever. If you're in the air, you're trading mobility for precision. Since the bouncing reticle is just a representation of a randomized coordinate, perhaps replace, when jumping, the small reticle with a larger one encompassing all random points, in order to spare players eyestrain.


There are other solutions, but these are probably among the easiest to implement.

[Gas Guzzler]

East Indy, on 11 May 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Two changes:

1. Break up front-loaded convergence for ACs and PPCs with millisecond delays.

• Single weapons aren't affected.
  
• Stationary targets are still punished.
  
• It scales, meaning a million ACs still have to fire in sequence.
  
• Heat scale and velocity changes for these weapons can be removed.

The thing here is, PPCs and AC5s for instance already travel at different velocities, so at even a moderate range, if the target is moving the two weapons will not hit the same component. This is a fact.

I have thought about the CoF suggestion, and while I initially thought it might be a good idea. However, it definitely rewards bad players (in that they can count on someone with perfect aim not hitting the component that they are trying to hit) and punishes good players.

Bishop's suggestion with having a the reticle shake linger and diminish a second after stopping jump thrust is a good idea. Having the reticle shake all the way down wouldn't really make sense though.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 May 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

The thing here is, PPCs and AC5s for instance already travel at different velocities, so at even a moderate range, if the target is moving the two weapons will not hit the same component. This is a fact.

I have thought about the CoF suggestion, and while I initially thought it might be a good idea. However, it definitely rewards bad players (in that they can count on someone with perfect aim not hitting the component that they are trying to hit) and punishes good players.

Bishop's suggestion with having a the reticle shake linger and diminish a second after stopping jump thrust is a good idea. Having the reticle shake all the way down wouldn't really make sense though.

I aim to please, sensai!