162 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

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Not really. Good jump snipers would love this. Good jump sniping is not just going up, but also having some forward or backward momentum as well, not enough to lose your cover, but enough to make you EVEN HARDER to hit on top of already being very hard to hit. Arcing through the air is harder to hit than straight up and down. You learn this pretty quick.

So again this would be a "it might work" fix that doesnt actually fix the problem, and in some cases make it even worse.

True it would help the better snipers.

So still seems having shaking trailing off on the way down is the best option. Plus making sure SRMs are a real threat.

[Mystere]

XX Sulla XX, on 10 May 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

Now what it looks like is happening is PGI is basing their balancing on the feed back from the NGNG and the more organized teams that have direct communication with those running PGI. The problem with this is the top 1% of players have a very very narrow view of the game. And they tend to fail to see how the changes they suggest effect the other 99% of the players.

Franky, who gives a flying f**k about the jump-sniping meta-whores and their wannabe minions? They are relegated to a small enough corner of the playerbase. Why ruin the game some more with even more stupid game mechanics because of them?

Let the jump-sniping meta-whores lie in the bed they have made for themselves.

[East Indy]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 May 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

The thing here is, PPCs and AC5s for instance already travel at different velocities, so at even a moderate range, if the target is moving the two weapons will not hit the same component. This is a fact.

Before going into details, if the velocity change were effective, we'd have seen players at all levels of play abandoning PPC-AC/5 — and that did not happen. High-end guys are trying Gauss, and I respect PGI making surgical changes, but if the goal was to encourage variety this didn't work.

At 450 meters, an AC/5 round hits a target moving laterally about 0.091 seconds after a PPC bolt. Your average heavy going 70 kph spreads the rounds by 1.7 meters, which may or may not split damage but in most cases everything hits the target.

Compare this with a full 250 milliseconds, which spreads the PPC and AC/5 potential impacts on the same target by 4.5 meters — half the length of a full-size 'Mech — even if AC/5 velocity is raised to 1,500 mps. And that's just the first AC round. Right there, the one-button, 540-meter 20-pointer is dead. If you want to land all your shots with a zillion grouped guns, you have to stagger fire while you re-aim, which has just lowered your accuracy, facilitated your target's return fire and increased time-to-kill.

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the CoF suggestion

To clarify, this is simply a quality-of-life alternative to graphically representing the shaking reticle. As it is, the reticle bounces too quickly for anyone to actually respond to it (which is why pinpoint is shot on descent).

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 11 May 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

Franky, who gives a flying f**k about the jump-sniping meta-whores and their wannabe minions? They are relegated to a small enough corner of the playerbase. Why ruin the game some more with even more stupid game mechanics because of them?

Let the jump-sniping meta-whores lie in the bed they have made for themselves.

because all too often I find those dirty whores trying to crawl into my bed, and I am tired of having to visit the free clinic?

[Nathan Foxbane]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 May 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

The thing here is, PPCs and AC5s for instance already travel at different velocities, so at even a moderate range, if the target is moving the two weapons will not hit the same component. This is a fact.

I have thought about the CoF suggestion, and while I initially thought it might be a good idea. However, it definitely rewards bad players (in that they can count on someone with perfect aim not hitting the component that they are trying to hit) and punishes good players.

Bishop's suggestion with having a the reticle shake linger and diminish a second after stopping jump thrust is a good idea. Having the reticle shake all the way down wouldn't really make sense though.

Or they could just desync the weapons by making ACs fire projectile bursts so they spread damage instead of all FLD. Why should the clammers get all fun with that feature.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nathan Foxbane, on 11 May 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Or they could just desync the weapons by making ACs fire projectile bursts so they spread damage instead of all FLD. Why should the clammers get all fun with that feature.

would still punish brawlers more than poptarts who will merely switch to a different weapon

[topgun505]

To say pinpoint damage is not a problem currently is either massive ignorance or a deliberate troll.

Adiuvo, on 10 May 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Pinpoint accuracy is not a problem. Being able to jump and deal 30 damage, say, every 10 seconds or so is not a problem. To do that without spreading damage you need to hope that the opponent is brain dead and doesn't torso twist, and you need to have relatively decent aim. Innate inaccuracy is a frustrating, annoying mechanic that only serves to lower the skill cap of the game. Adding in some kind of splash damage reduces the effectiveness of torso twisting, and harms mechs that have smaller hitboxes to begin with.

I'm not in favor of increasing heat on JJs though it's not a terrible idea. All jump jets (including lights) need the tweaks that the Highlander's JJs had. Namely, massively reduced initial thrust and a better scaling as you equip more JJs. These changes reduced the DPS of a jumpsniper Highlander massively which is the reason you don't see them taken anymore. Do the same thing to the Victor and it will fall out of favor as well, requiring either more tonnage dedicated to JJs, reducing it's heat capacity/engine size or a move to Cataphracts, which are squishy and slow if they're snipers. Class II JJs should probably have their tonnage increased to two as well.

SRMs regging properly would fix a myriad of problems, but they can't be nerfed whatsoever if you're looking to reward gap closing.

[Adiuvo]

topgun505, on 11 May 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

To say pinpoint damage is not a problem currently is either massive ignorance or a deliberate troll.

And yet I was the one who explained my reasoning, while you just made your statement.

I'm also fairly certain I understand this game much more than you do.

[Deadfire]

Adiuvo, on 11 May 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

And yet I was the one who explained my reasoning, while you just made your statement.

I'm also fairly certain I understand this game much more than you do.

XX Sulla XX, on 10 May 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

Now what it looks like is happening is PGI is basing their balancing on the feed back from the NGNG and the more organized teams that have direct communication with those running PGI. The problem with this is the top 1% of players have a very very narrow view of the game. And they tend to fail to see how the changes they suggest effect the other 99% of the players.

For example in the latest podcast from NGNG they are suggesting more nerfs of jump jets with heat etc but they are symptom of the problem instead of the real problem. Now if you nerfed them enough it might at some point reduce jump jets in the most competitive 12 mans. But it would have a drastic effect on the other 99% of the games where it was not a problem to begin with.

It appears we don't Adiuvo, being competetive and in a top tier team means we know nothing about the game at all it seems. Reminds me why I never visit the forums often, as it further proves the presentation of our scene is solely lacking.

Edited by Deadfire, 11 May 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

would still punish brawlers more than poptarts who will merely switch to a different weapon

True. I was thinking of trying to narrow down FLD to PPCs and Gauss, but it then struck me that since clan built LB-Xs may be able to switch between ammo types, it just takes the option away from IS players. Tweaking Ultra 5s to burst might still be fun.

Really getting away from poptarting while leaving actual jump snipers and jumping brawlers intact is turning out to be a complex problem with no easy solution.

topgun505, on 11 May 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

To say pinpoint damage is not a problem currently is either massive ignorance or a deliberate troll.

Pin point damage was more interesting with arms had a convergence time desync with the torsos. Waiting that extra half second for so for all the weapons to converge became a judgment call and a timing skill. Of course returning that might really screw with arm mounted Gauss Rifles.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nathan Foxbane, on 11 May 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

True. I was thinking of trying to narrow down FLD to PPCs and Gauss, but it then struck me that since clan built LB-Xs may be able to switch between ammo types, it just takes the option away from IS players. Tweaking Ultra 5s to burst might still be fun.

Really getting away from poptarting while leaving actual jump snipers and jumping brawlers intact is turning out to be a complex problem with no easy solution.


Pin point damage was more interesting with arms had a convergence time desync with the torsos. Waiting that extra half second for so for all the weapons to converge became a judgment call and a timing skill. Of course returning that might really screw with arm mounted Gauss Rifles.

maybe I am biased, I think my idea, with some tuning, at the outset answered it pretty simply, without any convoluted mechanics, but just by utilizing what is already in game.

[Ningyo]

First off they really should fix falling damage. you take the same dmg going over a bump in a locust as falling 250 meters jumping off a cliff in a highlander. In a perfect world you could calculate dmg off Mass*Acc^2, but lets face it fall speeds in MWO do not accelerate in a realistic manner. So maybe a simple Tonnage/10 * Meters Fallen/20 = dmg (Maybe * slope of fall to reduce dmg from sliding down a mountain).

So a locust going over a bump would take about 0.1 damage
a Highlander falling 10m would take 4,5 damage
a Highlander jumping off a 250m cliff would take 112.5 damage probably completely taking out both legs

This should add a bit of risk to poptarting and add some piloting skill back into the game.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Secondly Make DHS do 1 heat on internal engine heatsinks and 2 on additional heatsinks
This will make them while still better than SHS in most cases, no longer be better in every single case. Also it will make many mechs trade off a weapon for a couple more Heatsinks reducing the high alphas slightly.

(I think most Poptarts run around 14-16 DHS? At 15 DHS this method would lower dissipation from 27 to 20, but if they raised up to 20 DHS it would only reduce from 34 to 30)

__________________________________________________________________________________

Third raise heat on (U)AC/5 to be in line with other autocannons

Presently:
AC/2 = 1.49 HPS
AC/5 = 0.60 HPS (This should probably be doubled to 1.20 HPS)
AC/10= 1.20 HPS
AC/20= 1.50 HPS

________________________________________________________________________

I think these would make a lot of good changes in gameplay including making poptarting less of an OP tactic, while still leaving it viable.


(on someones comment earlier about people sayign they get 400-600 dmg on average in a game they likely mean "in an average game" not "on average in a game" for instance in my cicada CDA-3M in 50% of games I get between 450-550 damage. My average damage in it is only 407 damage though since I have more 150-200 dmg games than 700+ damage games)


I am fine with many of the other options out there too like fixing convergence, but I doubt they will do them so I have rather given up and try to offer simpler to program solutions.

[Jonathan Paine]

Disclaimer: I love mixed weapons brawling.

There are many things that I like about MWO and how mechs handle. Jump jets are not one of them.

I want jump jets to violently propel a multi-ton un-aeorodynamic metal colossus through the air at crazy velocity, terminating in a rough landing where the penalty for not having enough jump jet thrust left is losing half the (potential full) armor of the legs.

I want mechs that OVERHEAT in mid air to faceplant into the ground, suffering catastrophic amounts of damage.

I want mechs that get HIT in mid air to juggle like crazy and risk faceplanting.

Jump jetting should be immense temporary mobility coupled with great risk. I find the idea of accurately jump sniping to be ludicrous. However, I'll settle for something like Bishop's 0.5 second of diminishing inaccuracy for now. Enough time that you risk someone reacting to the jump and hitting you.

[XX Sulla XX]

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There are many things that I like about MWO and how mechs handle. Jump jets are not one of them.

Sounds a lot like I do not like jump jets so lets nerf them into the ground.

[Aresye]

XX Sulla XX, on 11 May 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

Sounds a lot like I do not like jump jets so lets nerf them into the ground.

Quite literally, from the way he's suggesting

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 May 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

because all too often I find those dirty whores trying to crawl into my bed, and I am tired of having to visit the free clinic?

Don't take them home with you then!

[DaZur]

My singular issue with the forwarded premise that poptarts/jump-sniping is a problem is the presumption that what is OP and unbalanced at the top tier levels of play holds true for the greater unwashed middling player group.

For those of us in the middle of the proverbial player pack, jump-sniping is not nearly as dominant and as such, not nearly the game-breaking mechanic that is is at the highest levels.

Point being... The tactic of jump-sniping is no more unbalanced than any other means players utilize to gain advantage over another for the purpose of winning.

The reality is "people" are broken and unbalanced... not necessarily the mechanic being abused.

[Ningyo]

Except DaZur you only don't find them often in Mid-Elo play because it is really OP and they move into higher brackets quickly.

I PUG exclusively so far thus my ELO cannot rise above high-mid level (I often get a loss doing 600-1000 dmg, even if you are top dmg/kills on your team every single match you will only average a 1.3-1.5 W/L if you drop solo). At my ELO I see poptarts or groups of them every 3-4 matches and they nearly always are all at the very top in dmg/kills.

there are exceptions since again if they drop solo they could have really bad team and no support but thats a separate issue.

[DaZur]

Ningyo, on 11 May 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

Except DaZur you only don't find them often in Mid-Elo play because it is really OP and they move into higher brackets quickly.

I PUG exclusively so far thus my ELO cannot rise above high-mid level (I often get a loss doing 600-1000 dmg, even if you are top dmg/kills on your team every single match you will only average a 1.3-1.5 W/L if you drop solo). At my ELO I see poptarts or groups of them every 3-4 matches and they nearly always are all at the very top in dmg/kills.

there are exceptions since again if they drop solo they could have really bad team and no support but thats a separate issue.

Understood...

That said, IMHO the constant efforts to mitigate the FOTM and meta-builds is as damaging to the game as those who take wholesale advantage of game mechanics to leverage their wins.

The reality is I don't care what PGI does to battle gamers gaming the game.... there will always be a meta, and with that the players who will use it to gain advantage.

Watering down every tactic and game mechanic that is perceived as OP in the name of balance is the fastest way for a game to suddenly become mired in mediocrity and stagnation.

[Gas Guzzler]

East Indy, on 11 May 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

Before going into details, if the velocity change were effective, we'd have seen players at all levels of play abandoning PPC-AC/5 — and that did not happen. High-end guys are trying Gauss, and I respect PGI making surgical changes, but if the goal was to encourage variety this didn't work.

At 450 meters, an AC/5 round hits a target moving laterally about 0.091 seconds after a PPC bolt. Your average heavy going 70 kph spreads the rounds by 1.7 meters, which may or may not split damage but in most cases everything hits the target.

1.7 meters is typically enough to separate between two components. I have used it, and that has been my experience.

People kept the AC + PPC combo (I switched to Gauss on most of my meta mechs, it is actually a lot more fun) because it is still very effective on people who aren't moving or in closer range situations. Hell, it still works but not as well and when you are "sniping" at 450 m and someone is moving moderately quickly, you are not going to get all your damage onto one component.

Overall, I am of the opinion that pinpoint damage is not something that should be removed. Some of the ideas to make jump shooting over cover more difficult, like a finely tuned time delay of throttle shake after releasing jump jets, would make things a little more interesting. It makes sense that they create some heat as well but that will hurt other playstyles more than jump shooting.