145 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 May 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

I've considered the Gauss/Tag version I have seen...with the "laser sights"......

I tried it, but ultimately I felt 1 ton was too costly for the benefit, and it also gave away the major advantage that Gauss has in that targets aren't able to figure out where exactly you are firing from.

[Joe Decker]

Posted this a couple of Times - lets see how long it takes PGI to realize : We need adequate falling Damage to the Legs if a Mech falls to the Ground without using his JumpJets to reduce the Fall Height.

Poptarting will be mostly over after this very small Adjustment.

It is a Joke that you get more Falling Damage to your Legs when you are in a light Mech than a 60 to 90 ton Mech.

60 to 90 tons get more Damage to the Legs than 25 to 35 tons if you let them fall down from a certain Height.

Of Course if they want to keep that Meta they do not need to change a Thing. I am just saying this in good Hope they want to change it.

As I remember in Battletech there was never the Problem with "Poptarts" ^^

And of Course when they fix that they can instantly overwork the whole Jumpjet System, so that it makes Sense.

Edited by Joe Decker, 24 May 2014 - 11:58 AM.

[Gigastrike]

Joe Decker, on 24 May 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

Posted this a couple of Times - lets see how long it takes PGI to realize : We need adequate falling Damage to the Legs if a Mech falls to the Ground without using his JumpJets to reduce the Fall Height.

Poptarting will be mostly over after this very small Adjustment.

...That actually makes sense. Mechs weren't designed to withstand repeated drops. Or rather, to my knowledge, only the Highlander was.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gigastrike, on 24 May 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

...That actually makes sense. Mechs weren't designed to withstand repeated drops. Or rather, to my knowledge, only the Highlander was.

Even it was meant to use jjs to cushion it. More than a few meters is not good on machinery. Though many mechs were built around very rough and tussle tactics like jump kicks (the old lore even talked about the Wasp getting reinforced hip structures because of stress from jump kicking causing the leg to shear off at the hip!)

[Zerex]

Sarlic, on 24 May 2014 - 12:51 AM, said:

I agree, but i would like to add

Its my opninion, like it or not. Any team should be able to play with all variaties. Not some meta packed team. I do blame the poor balance, yet again 'anything for a win, right?' I agree with you on PGI and so on. In dont play meta builds, never do.

Looking at the current State of the game with all these meta players (which are awfull alot of them) makes me sad. As you point out we always will have meta, but the large group of meta users is just...pathetic. Community has their own responsibility aswell.

I believe alot of pilots are experienced on the team, nothing wrong with their skills, but its the meta packs i dont like.

As a member of the one of the teams in the tourney that ran all those Dragon Slayers i feel i have to speak up and point out why the DS's were used so much, for us it was a matter of bring a strong drop deck with a god min/max balance it also fitted in with our game plan. As a comp team you need to be looking for mechs with good speed, high pin point fire output and JJ's for more options of how to move around the map (not just pop tarting). In the games where DS's were heavily used, Antares Scorpions and SJR both of them were used a mid range brawlers and pushing on the enemy teams not pop tarting.

Yes the DS is meta but so is the Yen Lo Wang and so is the SHD-2D and Firestarters and Jenners and Lrms and stalkers are the big meta in PUG games, yet no one ever moans about them all being meta. The real problem here is people not knowing what they are talking about, they see 3D's and DS's and call "Meta poptart" without even seeing how they are being used, just because i have a mech that can pop tart doesn't mean that i will being using it like that, to assume so will only lead to u being caught of guard by (an) aggressive mid brawler(s) that u thought was ridge humping.

This thread asked why so many DS's were used and the answer is because for the drop weights and map they made sense, but it quickly turned in to a Meta pop tart witch hunter which is strange as there was no jump sniping done by both teams that used them the most.

Just to give u the inside look in to my mind, i HATE pop tarting, it bores me beyond belief, i and my unit are and have always prided ourselves on our brawling merits (Watch our second match) but with SRM's hit reg MIA, pushing a brawl at the minute with the game in its current state on open maps offers no real advantage, sure u can get close, losing mech(s) to get the brawl, but then what? you have no real punch up close so why push in? With the game in this way are u saying i should just quit comp play til brawling comes back in? Or i should be happy to be losing games that could be won just to say i didn't use meta? or should i quit the game totally (with the chance of not returning because i'll be playing something else) until brawling comes back?

just a quick question on meta to ponder on, when SRM's are fixed and and Cent 9-A's become meta once more, will u stop using SRM's and any of the many missile meds and post on the forums that they too are meta?

[Bishop Steiner]

Zerex, on 24 May 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

As a member of the one of the teams in the tourney that ran all those Dragon Slayers i feel i have to speak up and point out why the DS's were used so much, for us it was a matter of bring a strong drop deck with a god min/max balance it also fitted in with our game plan. As a comp team you need to be looking for mechs with good speed, high pin point fire output and JJ's for more options of how to move around the map (not just pop tarting). In the games where DS's were heavily used, Antares Scorpions and SJR both of them were used a mid range brawlers and pushing on the enemy teams not pop tarting.

Yes the DS is meta but so is the Yen Lo Wang and so is the SHD-2D and Firestarters and Jenners and Lrms and stalkers are the big meta in PUG games, yet no one ever moans about them all being meta. The real problem here is people not knowing what they are talking about, they see 3D's and DS's and call "Meta poptart" without even seeing how they are being used, just because i have a mech that can pop tart doesn't mean that i will being using it like that, to assume so will only lead to u being caught of guard by (an) aggressive mid brawler(s) that u thought was ridge humping.

This thread asked why so many DS's were used and the answer is because for the drop weights and map they made sense, but it quickly turned in to a Meta pop tart witch hunter which is strange as there was no jump sniping done by both teams that used them the most.

Just to give u the inside look in to my mind, i HATE pop tarting, it bores me beyond belief, i and my unit are and have always prided ourselves on our brawling merits (Watch our second match) but with SRM's hit reg MIA, pushing a brawl at the minute with the game in its current state on open maps offers no real advantage, sure u can get close, losing mech(s) to get the brawl, but then what? you have no real punch up close so why push in? With the game in this way are u saying i should just quit comp play til brawling comes back in? Or i should be happy to be losing games that could be won just to say i didn't use meta? or should i quit the game totally (with the chance of not returning because i'll be playing something else) until brawling comes back?

just a quick question on meta to ponder on, when SRM's are fixed and and Cent 9-A's become meta once more, will u stop using SRM's and any of the many missile meds and post on the forums that they too are meta?

yes.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 May 2014 - 03:19 PM.

[Zerex]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 May 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

yes.

So this has nothing to with being against the "Meta" but just about being against "jump snipers"?

[Bishop Steiner]

Zerex, on 24 May 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

So this has nothing to with being against the "Meta" but just about being against "jump snipers"?

nope.

this has everything to do with giving a trolly answer for giggles. crazy right?

Because if you read my comments throughout the thread, they actually aren't anti-anything......except maybe anti-ignorance.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 May 2014 - 03:35 PM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Dunno if this has been also stated in the previous pages. But the dragon slayer's movement is now the same as what all the other varients had before the nerfhammer fell. So it is the most manuverable one left. Which poptart or not poptart, is the best reason to bring one anyways.

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 24 May 2014 - 03:41 PM.

[Zerex]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 May 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

nope.

this has everything to do with giving a trolly answer for giggles. crazy right?

Because if you read my comments throughout the thread, they actually aren't anti-anything......except maybe anti-ignorance.

And this is why i don't bother entering into these forums anymore, i come here take time to explain the truth behind the question from inside one of the teams that used the Dragon Slayers and you openly admit your just trolling this thread.

[Bishop Steiner]

Zerex, on 24 May 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

And this is why i don't bother entering into these forums anymore, i come here take time to explain the truth behind the question from inside one of the teams that used the Dragon Slayers and you openly admit your just trolling this thread.

Nope. Again, you don't take time to read. I said I trolled that POST (and in a good natured fashion, at that). And that if you bothered to actually READ my earlier posts, I was not posting anti-anything. In fact, if anything, I was coming across...somewhat pro poptart..... which.... makes me wonder if I have been drinking again.

Also, as a side note: It's an internet forum for a bloody video game. Loosen the heck up. And get over yourself.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 May 2014 - 04:06 PM.

[Zerex]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 May 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

Nope. Again, you don't take time to read. I said I trolled that POST (and in a good natured fashion, at that). And that if you bothered to actually READ my earlier posts, I was not posting anti-anything. In fact, if anything, I was coming across...somewhat pro poptart..... which.... makes me wonder if I have been drinking again.

Also, as a side note: It's an internet forum for a bloody video game. Loosen the heck up. And get over yourself.

I answered the question and u trolled the answer, so clearly you don't seem to care about the the true answer to the OP. If u did have anything worth saying its falling on deaf ears because i 'm clearly not going to go back and read any of ur posts, because of the 4 posts on this page i can read u have nothing of worth being said and 1 is a troll post. Crazy right??

And before u bother replying to this post "Loosen the heck up. And get over yourself "

Edited by Zerex, 24 May 2014 - 04:18 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Zerex, on 24 May 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

I answered the question and u trolled the answer, so clearly you don't seem to care about the the true answer to the OP. If u did have anything worth saying its falling on deaf ears because i 'm clearly not going to go back and read any of ur posts, because of the 4 posts on this page i can read u have nothing of worth being said and 1 is a troll post. Crazy right??

And before u bother replying to this post "Loosen the heck up. And get over yourself "

Ignorance is indeed bliss, I suppose. Enjoy the view with blinders on. (ZOMG!! ! Imma serious Mechwarrior, how dare someone ever gimme a trolly answer to a wall of text on teh intrawebz!!!!")

GG, Close, sparky. Oh....and loosen up, k, thx?

[Diablobo]

I thank you all for the honest answers. It has been a very enlightening thread. I learn by asking questions, and you guys have done great.

It seems to me that poptarting is the main problem with the meta.

Since they added the shake, players just wait until the burn ends to shoot, so I like the idea of continuing to shake a short time after the burn. Actually, why not make the mech shake throughout the entire time it is in the air? Jumping in TT was not for poptarting, it was for movement. It also is supposed to give a substantial to-hit penalty, which the shake would model.

Also, the issue of leg damage needs looking at too. When a mech gets to max height and just plops down, it should take some pretty substantial damage to the legs. As it is now, the damage is negligible. Raising falling damage would make the risk/reward equation balance better.

Another idea is to lower the mech tonnage for 2 ton jumpjets to 80 tons and above.

Bam! No more poptarts. If they can still tryhard with these things, then they deserve to win.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Victors weren't a problem back in my day....

[Alaskan Nobody]

Diablobo, on 24 May 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

Another idea is to lower the mech tonnage for 2 ton jumpjets to 80 tons and above.

Causes some problems with stock builds.

Though that is one I have wondered about since I first started learning about it

Anyone know why the TT didn't go by weight class for the weights of JJ?

Rather surprised that most Heavies weren't paying 1.5 tons for their JJ.

[Bishop Steiner]

Diablobo, on 24 May 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

I thank you all for the honest answers. It has been a very enlightening thread. I learn by asking questions, and you guys have done great.

It seems to me that poptarting is the main problem with the meta.

Since they added the shake, players just wait until the burn ends to shoot, so I like the idea of continuing to shake a short time after the burn. Actually, why not make the mech shake throughout the entire time it is in the air? Jumping in TT was not for poptarting, it was for movement. It also is supposed to give a substantial to-hit penalty, which the shake would model.

Also, the issue of leg damage needs looking at too. When a mech gets to max height and just plops down, it should take some pretty substantial damage to the legs. As it is now, the damage is negligible. Raising falling damage would make the risk/reward equation balance better.

Another idea is to lower the mech tonnage for 2 ton jumpjets to 80 tons and above.

Bam! No more poptarts. If they can still tryhard with these things, then they deserve to win.

well, the only reason I would not continue the shake all the way to the ground (aside from physics.... I might see a CoF being involved after the shake subsided, but not really reticle shake all the way down) is because while I find the tactic used repetitively to be boring, I do feel jump sniping IS a legitimate tactic.

The problem is not jumpsniping in and of itself, it's how easy it is to do it, and how high the risk/reward ratio is in favor of the Jumpsniper. (I usually reserve Poptart for the tryhards who just find a ridge and stand in place. Even if I feel it is a problem tactic, I feel the guys who perform it while on the move as part of a larger plan, can be very skilled). So I don't want to actually remove a legit and viable tactic, IMO, the goal should be to reduce the supremacy of said tactic, so that the meta gap is reduced.

There will always be meta builds, and there will always be (situationally, at least) dominant builds, but to close the gap without totally removing a part of the game is (again, IMO) better. I feel if one had the residual shake as the down jump started (which is also realistic, as sympathetic vibrations do not disappear instantaneously) it increase the risk, considerably, and steepens the skill cap, as you are now having to jump higher and expose more of your mech, while still timing a firing window on the way down.

In lower Elo, it would virtually disappear. In higher Elo and Comp, it would still be viable, but it would not be the clear cut "go to" it is now.

At least, in theory.

*edit* Leg damage should indeed increase exponentially based on elevation and mass. Light Mechs are unfairly penalized, when they actually would have LESS stress on their legs from minor drops and impacts.

Combining the two features would allow the tactic to exist and be legit, but punish the lazy player and increase the skill level required. All good things.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 May 2014 - 04:44 PM.

[Zerex]

Diablobo, on 24 May 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

I thank you all for the honest answers. It has been a very enlightening thread. I learn by asking questions, and you guys have done great.

It seems to me that poptarting is the main problem with the meta.

Since they added the shake, players just wait until the burn ends to shoot, so I like the idea of continuing to shake a short time after the burn. Actually, why not make the mech shake throughout the entire time it is in the air? Jumping in TT was not for poptarting, it was for movement. It also is supposed to give a substantial to-hit penalty, which the shake would model.

Also, the issue of leg damage needs looking at too. When a mech gets to max height and just plops down, it should take some pretty substantial damage to the legs. As it is now, the damage is negligible. Raising falling damage would make the risk/reward equation balance better.

Another idea is to lower the mech tonnage for 2 ton jumpjets to 80 tons and above.

Bam! No more poptarts. If they can still tryhard with these things, then they deserve to win.

I think the best answer to fixing pop tarts is in ur post, in my opinion JJ's should be for movement only, u shouldn't be able to fire ur weapons from the moment u use ur JJ's to lift off the ground until ur mechs feet are back on solid ground, making JJ's for movement only and not part of slightly boring/annoying tactic.

I truly believe tho that the reason there is so many pop tarts in Pugs is not comp players, but players that have cottoned on to the fact that Pugs for the most part are very passive with no real push to brawl and pop tarting offers a nice dmg to risk trade at distance and also that pop tarting is a way to avoid the crazy over powered Lrms boats because ur not insight long enough for a lock.
The best way to counter PPC/AC pop tarting is a large number of ER large lasers.

[Diablobo]

Zerex, on 24 May 2014 - 04:47 PM, said:

I think the best answer to fixing pop tarts is in ur post, in my opinion JJ's should be for movement only, u shouldn't be able to fire ur weapons from the moment u use ur JJ's to lift off the ground until ur mechs feet are back on solid ground, making JJ's for movement only and not part of slightly boring/annoying tactic.

I like the idea of not being able to fire while jumping, but I think a continuous shake would pretty much accomplish the same thing while still allowing the lights to do some fighting. I've found that even with the shake, I can jump and still use lasers. Also, streaks still work.

Edited by Diablobo, 24 May 2014 - 05:24 PM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

AC2's used to be a very wicked counter to poptarters. You would shake them fast and hard all the way up and down. But they nerfed those into near uselessness. Sometimes i think just for that reason...

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 24 May 2014 - 06:57 PM.