325 replies to this topic

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Roland, on 26 May 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

When you say tryhard, you confirm that you are garbage at the game.

I'm confirming I'm sick of the garbage, and eagerly awaiting PGI to take it out.

[AP514]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 May 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Sure.

Although when players have consistently and accurately predicted future issues based off of current decisions, and the company decides, instead of trying to listen and sort and test and see if maybe their community might be on to something, tells them they are on an island and that they don't listen to them, I would say that kinda skews the accountability ratio to like 90% the Devs, 10% the Players.

Cheers.

+1

We tried to tell them they were SCREW'n up way back in closed BETA....DEAF EARS..

[Mavairo]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 25 May 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

So how you can blame us for anything...it's just unreal?

No if MWO were Unreal, it wouldn't be a pile of steaming crap 50 percent of the time.

[TehSBGX]

Roland, on 25 May 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

His position is utterly without merit though. He has no idea what he's talking about. At this point, we're beyond opinion, and into cold hard facts.

Look at this. He's saying that this game, a side scrolling beat-em-up is somehow comparable to a game like DotA, or League of Legends.

No dude. It's not. They're not the same genre of game. They are not only different games, but they are totally different TYPES of games.

The fact that someone would make the comparison means that their perception of a game like LoL is superficial to the extent that they don't really grasp even the most basic understanding of what the game is even about.

It has fantasy themes... You choose a character... and that's the end of the similarity. Games like DotA and LoL are STRATEGY games, not RPG's. If someone doesn't grasp this most fundamental aspect of them, then it means they are not equipped to evaluate those games.

Looking at a game like DotA or LoL and then saying, "Derp, that's a terribly designed RPG game!" is ridiculous... because they AREN'T RPG GAMES. Which really would be obvious to someone who played them for more than 5 seconds.

Again, I'm really not a fan of MOBA games, but I at least know what they freaking are... and forgive me if I'm not real impressed with someone who presumes to make claims about game design but isn't able to differentiate between totally different game genres.

Funny thing is, KoD has a cult following that praises it's strategic depth.

Anyhow, I used to spend way too much time in WC3 ladder matches. I was akin to the meta players we have now. Five minutes is all it took for me to understand dotalikes are trying to mash warcraft and dynasty warriors together and it doesn't work. So whether you like it or not, dotalikes do have beat 'em up like quality with psuedo rpg elements.

So yes you can compare the two. Because dotalikes are nothing more than the ******* offspring of dynasty warriors and Warcraft, which sadly dotalikes fails at being as good as either of those things. Mind you Dynasy Warriors is for when you have buddies over and a lot of Whiskey, but still fail and understanding what makes DW fun and end up having no redeeming Value what so ever.



Oh and believe it or not, a lot of people can't stand tf2. Just say you like it on an Unreal Tournament forum and see how angry everyone gets.

[Pjwned]

Thread got absolutely #rekt within the first reply.

Are the players at some fault for exploiting the crappy system? Yes.

Are the players at just as much fault as the developers who let this happen despite the warnings and obvious signs? ABSOLUTELY NOT

Go damage control somewhere else.

lockwoodx, on 26 May 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

I'm confirming I'm sick of the garbage, and eagerly awaiting PGI to take it out.

I'd love to hear how you expect PGI to "take out the garbage."

Edited by Pjwned, 27 May 2014 - 01:11 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Pjwned, on 27 May 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

I'd love to hear how you expect PGI to "take out the garbage."

Simple - 2 Queues -
Ranked Match - every game no matter if 12 vs 12, Solo PUG or 4er Premade is - ranked (like ELO but visible) - increased C-Bill income the higher you rise in the ranking

Not Ranked Match - everything is possible maybe not even a ELO rating at all - lower income.

[DeadlyNerd]

I like how OP gets trolled by his own thread, pages of posts after he "won".
What's more, I like how he only replies to those he hasn't argued with, as if he's afraid he'll have to embarrass himself again.

This is seminar worthy research right here, for anyone studying human psychology.

[Barantor]

Don't agree with OP, there are too many instances of the Devs doing some silly stuff since the beginning and not going back to actually change it but rather just add some new measure on top. Eventually the rotten pancake at the bottom affects the whole stack.

@Bishop - Correct in most of the stuff here.

@Roland - I don't like TF2 or LoL and I have played and tried to love both for hours and hours because my friends play those two. TF2 is too spammy whereas I like my shooting games to have more depth and realism, it is pretty repetitive too me as well. LoL has about the worst community for any game I have seen and I do not like the top down view, I have been playing smite and actually like it a lot better, both are better with friends and that is the only way I play them, never played Dota. I haven't played CoD because it doesn't interest me from what I have seen of the gunfighting, I'm more into the simulations like the Arma series.

Lets make a real analogy.

There is an intersection in town that folks use as a U turn to get to a driveway to a restaurant since there is a median in the way to make a left into the drive. Lots of folks hate that it gets used as a U-turn and it has caused accidents to the point it has been brought up as a safety concern by the local media.

In this play we will call the Restaurant IPG, the corrupt City Council PGI, the folks using the meta as the U turn drivers and the folks that just play the game are the concerned citizens.

Now it isn't the u turn drivers fault that there is no sign telling them not to uturn, they want to do it to get to their end goal which is getting to the restaurant.

The restaurant doesn't really care, because it just wants the money earned by the u turn people too.

The corrupt city council doesn't care because it is getting some money from the restaurant to do nothing.

The concerned citizens are upset because they see the problem yet nobody seems to do the right thing.

Add in a media that makes money from the restaurant's advertising and you have what we have here... (I'll let you guess what is the media).


Hopefully this got read before this all took the K-Town train.

[Silentium]

Barantor, on 27 May 2014 - 04:12 AM, said:

Hopefully this got read before this all took the K-Town train.

I read it, and that seems like a good analogy to me.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Pjwned, on 27 May 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

I'd love to hear how you expect PGI to "take out the garbage."

For starters implement trial only and stock only queues. D-bags are welcome to try as hard as they want when there's other avenues for players to enjoy via ad-hoc dropping. Private matches while refreshing don't encourage players due to the lack of stat gain and are more for 12s practice. Just straight up name 12s to the "Hardcore" queue, PUBs would be the "Custom" queue meaning anything goes, Trials would be the "Cadet" queue, and stocks would be just that, the "Stock" queue.

Secondly an in-game voice system so more experienced players can explain to casuals while the match is in progress what to expect and lend sympathy with a mute toggle naturally. Also a toggle that hides/allows the chat from dead players to help reduce unneeded taunting.

Before dropping into a match there needs to be a briefing of some sort, and not just the "ready window." Create a pop-up window that briefly describes the map conditions in more detail than what casio watch from the 80s could tell you, along with a faux consent form the player must click instead of the ready button that warns the player about the "seriousness" of other player's attitudes they might encounter. I.E. 12s "Greetings brave warrior you are about to fight for the glory of your house in contested battle blah blah this is why you become a mechwarrior blah blah and be warned it is very common for warriors of this rank to exploit every advantage without mercy or remorse blah blah this drop type is for the most advanced and serious warriors only."

PPCs: My first idea would be to add the gauss firing mechanic to PPCs and see how that goes. I know you're suppose to be able to snap shot them in canon but lets face it, the gauss mechanic isn't that bad, promotes skill, and something has to be done. Ironically tryhards cried the hardest over the new gauss mechanic because it forced they to have to try harder. Poetic justice at its finest. Secondly the critical damage has to be addressed across all weapons, but especially ones that do full damage for 1 point getting through armor. I don't mean to pick on PPCs here, they just make the best example and there's a reason tryhards use nothing but them and AC/5s.

Speaking of poptarts.... What goes up, must come down. I'd like to see a mechanic tested with JJs/Jumping where your maximum heat scale shrinks in proportion to your JJ fuel being used up leaving 10% heat scale remaining after a maximum jump, then rise again at the speed which your fuel recovers. This avoids having to directly add heat to JJs in order to discourage tarting, and forces the player to choose if they want a shot at the apex of a climb at the cost of shutting down mid air.

Scarlet letters for sync droppers: Players who drop from the same queue into the public should be labeled via color coding or some form of identification. This helps pub players better understand the situation if they are getting stomped might help discourage that type of behavior.

They're not the best ideas, but you wanted some so that's what I've got for now and I hope it reminds you how genuine I am about doing my part to help instead of just calling D-bags out for the fun of it. If this game didn't depend so much on public players, and I didn't enjoy it so much, trust me I wouldn't be wasting my time. In the past I've taken up to 6 months at a time off of MWO in protest because PGI has had some pretty bad game design, but it's just as much the players fault if it's common knowledge and they take advantage of it, especially when it's also common knowledge that exploiting bad game design in a game like this kills it for everyone.

My solution in the past was to just walk away and hope the tryhards would get bored and also move on. Now the pool of fresh players has become so stagnant because of tryhards that there's barely anything left to come back to, and right when PGI was getting their **** together. This time, the bullies are being confronted and shown exactly how they harm the game with threads like this with the hope that attitudes change so PGI can continue to work on features and doesn't have to step in with the nerf bat.

Cheers

[Bishop Steiner]

DeadlyNerd, on 27 May 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

I like how OP gets trolled by his own thread, pages of posts after he "won".
What's more, I like how he only replies to those he hasn't argued with, as if he's afraid he'll have to embarrass himself again.

This is seminar worthy research right here, for anyone studying human psychology.

it's definitely Darwin Award winning, if nothing else.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Barantor, on 27 May 2014 - 04:12 AM, said:

There is an intersection in town that folks use as a U turn to get to a driveway to a restaurant since there is a median in the way to make a left into the drive. Lots of folks hate that it gets used as a U-turn and it has caused accidents to the point it has been brought up as a safety concern by the local media. In this play we will call the Restaurant IPG, the corrupt City Council PGI, the folks using the meta as the U turn drivers and the folks that just play the game are the concerned citizens. Now it isn't the u turn drivers fault that there is no sign telling them not to uturn, they want to do it to get to their end goal which is getting to the restaurant. The restaurant doesn't really care, because it just wants the money earned by the u turn people too. The corrupt city council doesn't care because it is getting some money from the restaurant to do nothing. The concerned citizens are upset because they see the problem yet nobody seems to do the right thing. Add in a media that makes money from the restaurant's advertising and you have what we have here... (I'll let you guess what is the media). Hopefully this got read before this all took the K-Town train.

U-Turns are illegal where I live, so that makes for a perfect example of how "tryhards" pulling U-Turns would be knowingly breaking the law for the sake of being lazy and taking the path of least resistance, endangering everyone else in the process and being just as at fault as the city who needs to design more avenues to travel.

[Bishop Steiner]

lockwoodx, on 27 May 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

U-Turns are illegal where I live, so that makes for a perfect example of how "tryhards" pulling U-Turns would be knowingly breaking the law for the sake of being lazy and taking the path of least resistance, endangering everyone else in the process and being just as at fault as the city who needs to design more avenues to travel.

So because your little part of the world is stupid, basically, you expect everyone else who doesn't live with your backward worldview to have to conform?


Brilliant.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

it's definitely Darwin Award winning, if nothing else.

Darwin would be proud I had the brass to show tryhards how to evolve past destroying the game's community for the sake of winning at any cost. Your insults are the greatest compliments I could hope to receive.

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

So because your little part of the world is stupid, basically, you expect everyone else who doesn't live with your backward worldview to have to conform? Brilliant.

MWO is a little world, and sadly your little mind can't grasp bigger pictures. You have my sympathy.

[Bishop Steiner]

lockwoodx, on 27 May 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

Darwin would be proud I had the brass to show tryhards how to evolve past destroying the game's community for the sake of winning at any cost. Your insults are the greatest compliments I could hope to receive.



MWO is a little world, and sadly your little mind can't grasp bigger pictures. You have my sympathy.

Wow, even your attempts at insults are paint by numbers, no wonder you have consistently come off as bringing a butter knife to a gunfight.

I'd say you have my sympathy, but there is already too much stupid in the world for me to extend it to willfully ignorant people.

Maybe if you spent half the time actually developing that "skill" you talk about in your "taking out the garbage" bit, that you do making pathetically feeble arguments here, you wouldn't be so butthurt by the big bad tryhard boogeymen owning you...and probably most of the non tryhard non meta players, to boot.

Must be kind of painful for such an "enlightened soul" as yourself that the "garbage" has consistently taken YOU out.

[MustrumRidcully]

The objective stated for a game is to win. The game requires its rules to be followed, and that's it.

If a player decides that he doesn't want to take the best/easiest route to win the game, that is his personal freedom and there is nothing wrong with it. But you cannot expect this behavior from every player.

So the best advice to any game designer is to expect playeres to play to win and identify strategies that are successful and thus will be common, and evaluate if you wanted this strategy to be as successful as it is. If not, you need to adjust.
You should try to anticipate player behaviour under the maxime that players will minimize risks and maximize rewards, and ensure that the type of play you want to see is the one that gives the least risks and the maximized rewards, and if you want the game to be succesful, there should probably be many ways to achieve this, instead of a small set only.



Or in other words - it's not the players fault that they play the game how it works, not how you imagined it to be.

[Almond Brown]

Roland, on 25 May 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Players have no control over game design.

stuff

That statement is as erroneous as the OP's. The players have had a lot of input and gotten many things changed based on that input.

What a Dev Team can't do is please everyone. Sadly everyone wants what they want and when they don't get it, they say the Dev ****** them over on purpose.

What we need around here is more maturity and less of the other.

[Barantor]

lockwoodx, on 27 May 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

U-Turns are illegal where I live, so that makes for a perfect example of how "tryhards" pulling U-Turns would be knowingly breaking the law for the sake of being lazy and taking the path of least resistance, endangering everyone else in the process and being just as at fault as the city who needs to design more avenues to travel.

U-turns are perfectly legal here which is the basis of my analogy.

I used to call folks 'tryhards' then I realized they are just playing the game within the definition of the rules. The rules are the problem, not the people playing within them.

It is akin to the first few people that figured out some odd tactic that broke the game in Warhammer 40k. The tactic was still valid until Games Workshop changed the rules to define that as not legal in the game.

Until PGI figures out they need some major changes then nothing is going to change and it isn't the fault of the U-turn users or the rules lawyers, it is the folks that make the rules.

If it gets your goat that they use the full panorama of the game to the point that you no longer enjoy it then stop giving the company money so they get the point. If none of the safety concerned citizens speak up (in the case of business with their wallets) then the u-turns will keep happening and folks like you will continue to be annoyed by it.

[Almond Brown]

Zolaz, on 25 May 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

Everyone calm down. PGI is doing the best they can. It is a weak company with a bad reputation of putting out really bad games. Do some research and you find that the people running the company are doing the same stuff they have been doing for awhile.

Does that excuse them? Nope, but you shouldnt be surprised. If you are mad because PGI misrepresented their time table and might have lied about stuff, you should be mad. However, the best indicator of future performance is past performance.

And PGI's past is "Failed To Meet Expectations". So, give em money or dont. We should have a barely viable game in a year or two.

And if everyone was held to same accountability as they hold PGI here, in their real lives, like never letting them forget past indiscretions, wouldn't life suck balls.

Living in the past never helps the future, of anything.

[Almond Brown]

Vassago Rain, on 25 May 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

It is not the paying players' fault that PGI have decided to balance based by grab deals.
Stop trying to shift the blame.

>yes, sir, the burger's raw, but it's just as much your fault as it is mine!

Doesn't work.

And never forget that "if" the Community that whines and wails so much ever got its collective **** together, perhaps proper change could be had. Never going to happen though, because the E-peen and Ego of the "needy few" will always far outweigh the "needs" of the many.