325 replies to this topic

[DeadlyNerd]

And OP just keeps on sinking in his pool of excrement.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 27 May 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[Magna Canus]

lockwoodx, on 27 May 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Thank you for some much needed sanity amongst all the tears being jerked from those jerks. PGI only wishes they could address their own community in this way, which is where those who can understand the bigger picture come in. If it wasn't for PGI's reluctance to take action by addressing bad game design, and if it wasn't for the community resorting to exploiting bad game design in order to get PGI's attention, maybe MWO could begin to grow and thrive again. One of these parties will have to take the first step and give in. PGI has constraints such as project scope, deadlines, manpower issues, legal material, etc..... The community are the ones who can act much swifter, but have become the most bitter. That kind of sour attitude is destructive, and they want to watch this small world mechwarriors call home burn before admitting reform is needed. That makes them just as at fault for poor game design, when to win at all costs they shamelessly use it to abuse those that would lend their support for the sake of their egos.




That's if your video game doesn't depend on a studio running it, and a community to support keeping the lights on.

There's an old saying... "you can only pick two of these three things: Cheap, Fast, Quality".

When it comes to F2P MMOs you can only pick two of these three things: Community, Content, Quality.

The content has made steady progress at the cost of quality and community. PGI has no quick fix for anything sadly, so lets focus on community (focus away from the meta and telling d-bags to tone it down a notch) while they're busy with quality (bug squashing, net code, engine tweaks etc) and more content (community warfare, tournaments, mechs etc).

LOL. The people you are imploring to stop running the meta are likely not even on these forums reading your post in the first place. They don't care what you think, with which justification, or the amount of conviction you can bring to your words.

A community is a group of people that have some sort of connection with each other. If those that have put a thorn in your side are not part of the community per se, then there is nothing a community can do to appeal to their "sense of fairness". Since there is a policy again "name and shame" you can't even mount a torch & pitchfork squad to TK them on sight.

Bishop said it best with the 99% making a gentleman's agreement and being foiled in the end by the 1% that does not care. I don't use meta builds, but does that stop anybody from using them? No.

Just recently Sneeking was saying (in jest I assume) that he was going to report everyone that used LRMs as a griefer. will you do the same with meta builds?

The entire discussion is infantile. When you play a game and don't like some aspect, then you can create house rules (private matches) or if you can't (public matches) and the developer won't "fix it" then you have the choice of either playing anyways or not playing at all. If you find something you don't like the first option is not funding the company until you are happy with the state of the game, and the escalation thereof is to not play at all. At the latest, when the player pool has run dry and the well is muddy, maybe PGI will listen. Maybe. At least you have some means of influencing the developers, you have no reliable means of influencing the people that are using the meta besides changing the meta through the developer themselves.

Again, unless you intend on forming lynch mobs.

[Almond Brown]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

Games have rules. You might have house rules when you play them, but you go to Vegas and expect them to play by your house rules, how far does that get you?

If you dislike how a game is played, petition the game developers to change it. But don't blame the players for following the rules. I hate the "two letter word list" in scrabble, as most on the list break their own stated rules..... and yet Scrabble allows it. So while I might not allow them at home (which would be akin to Private Matches" here) I cannot insist the game be played without them in other people's home or in Official Tournament play (Which is what the Public Matchmaker represents)

There is a lot I dislike. But blaming the players for the loopholes and poor planning of the Developers is simply ludicrous. That would be like blaming the taxpayers in a city for using a certain road to do their daily business, just because the construction of said road was an unpopular and contentious decision within the town.

This is PGI's game and this is PGI's House, so Yes we are playing by their House rules, many of which have been set down at the behest of the Players. Anyone who thought the TT rules would not have to be modified and likely heavily has, obviously, never player the other MW games before.

Like it or not House rules have to exist, otherwise it would be called TT/BT, we would be rolling dice to hit, and not MW. What parts one likes or dislikes about the over-all game design (past the Foundation that HAS to be layed down before anything else can proceed, is totally personal and likely highly biased.

But to say the players have not had a hand in it is Ostrich like behavior and results in the same thing the Ostrich gets? Nothing worthwhile when your arse is still sticking up in the air, while pretending to be hidden.

Edited by Almond Brown, 27 May 2014 - 08:16 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Almond Brown, on 27 May 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

This is PGI's game and this is PGI's House, so Yes we are playing by their House rules, many of which have been set down at the behest of the Players. Anyone who thought the TT rules would not have to be modified and likely heavily has, obviously, never player the other MW games before.

Like it or not House rules have to exist, otherwise it would be called TT/BT and not MW. What parts one likes or dislikes about the over-all game design (past the Foundation that HAS to be layed down before anything else can proceed, is totally personal and likely highly biased.

But to say the players have not had a hand in it is Ostrich like behavior and results in the same thing the Ostrich gets? Nothing worthwhile when your arse is still sticking up in the air, while pretending to be hidden.

so, by your reasoning, when I drive 65 in a 65 mph zone (playing the game to the limit of the rules), I am contributing to bad driving (or bad game play), because there are a couple of people who feel that regardless of the speed limit (aka the game mechanic and rules) I should only drive 55?

[Almond Brown]

Bront, on 27 May 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

Douchebag involves treating other people poorly, not how you play an online game. Otherwise, anyone who uses the game rules to win is a Douchebag.

When the Rules finally become "Official" and written down for that last time, then we will have to play by the Rules.

MWO doesn't have a complete set of hard and fast Rules, yet. MWO is not complete and the sole reason why, the much lamented lack of documentation, is that way.

Why ever write down a bunch of things that change on a whim, especially when the Community gets all growlie about a current derivative of any such rule. LRM's perhaps? What is their set RULE currently?

[Bront]

lockwoodx, on 27 May 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Correct. It's not that they are playing within the game's rules simply to win. It's that certain groups of players are knowingly exploiting bad game design to win at any cost, and its costing MWO warm bodies to fill mechs. That's the point of this thread, to highlight that knowingly exploiting bad game design is just as bad as studios who refuse/are slow to take action.

But it's on PGI to fix game mechanics. Not the players. And how is playing to win being rude to new players? If they weren't willing to help newbs (or worse, actively griefed them), THEN it would be an issue.

If a new player isn't willing to suck for a bit while they learn the game, they're not going to last much in most games.

[Almond Brown]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

And if everyone always conveniently forgot every broken promise and lie told to them, the world would indeed be a paradise for conmen, charlatans and hucksters, wouldn't it.

There Is a really ancient principle, one version found in an old book called the Bible. "Be cautious as serpents, yet innocent as doves", another version of the same principle being "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".

Most of us are rather willing to give PGI a chance. Most of us hope the game succeeds. But based on their past record we cannot blindly assume they will follow through, and many of us no longer trust us with our money until they demonstrate they are indeed worthy of trust again.

Go look up Alcoholics Anonymous, and look up the definition of an "Enabler". Sadly, the kumbaya approach you merit, while sounding wonderful, actually hurts both parties more in the long run.

We call those Life Lessons, learned by trial and error. Perhaps the Dev are doing the same thing. If the Community can learn by trial and error, then why hold the Dev to a higher standard? Just because.

P.S. A Digital game and the Bible. Who would have thought.

Edited by Almond Brown, 27 May 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 27 May 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

P.S. A Digital game and the Bible. Who would have thought.

Both are a work of fiction from where I sit.

[Bishop Steiner]

Almond Brown, on 27 May 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

When the Rules finally become "Official" and written down for that last time, then we will have to play by the Rules.

MWO doesn't have a complete set of hard and fast Rules, yet. MWO is not complete and the sole reason why, the much lamented lack of documentation, is that way.

Why ever write down a bunch of things that change on a whim, especially when the Community gets all growlie about a current derivative of any such rule. LRM's perhaps? What is their set RULE currently?

it's a free to play game. By it's definition, it will achieve it's final form ONLY after it shuts down. So you are saying for the entirety of it's existence, we should be bound by the opinions of what the (not quite) rules SHOULD mean, according to a select few, rather than what the Powers That Be, actually enforce?

That makes no sense, sorry.

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Nope. I get reminded all the time of stupid things I've done in the past. Normally I laugh about it, other times I thank those who remind me. It keeps me honest and vigilant.

Do you get reminded every day by everyone you meet who knows about those things? Don't you think you would get your fill soon enough if they did? A gentle reminder is one thing. Calling everything the Dev do a Lie, or that they are running some kind of illegal "Ponsey" scheme in the backroom is BS and senseless. Well not for those who apparently have nothing better to do with their time.

That is the saddest part in all of this really. Some of the stuff said around here borders on "litigatable slander". Why they ever say anything is a mystery really.

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 27 May 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

Do you get reminded every day by everyone you meet who knows about those things? Don't you think you would get your fill soon enough if they did? A gentle reminder is one thing. Calling everything the Dev do a Lie, or that they are running some kind of illegal "Ponsey" scheme in the backroom is BS and senseless. Well not for those who apparently have nothing better to do with their time.

That is the saddest part in all of this really. Some of the stuff said around here borders on "litigatable slander". Why they ever say anything is a mystery really.

I've been married 25 years. Of course I do! As I tell most people, If whats being said is true... OWN it. If its not... Ignore it.

[Almond Brown]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

so, by your reasoning, when I drive 65 in a 65 mph zone (playing the game to the limit of the rules), I am contributing to bad driving (or bad game play), because there are a couple of people who feel that regardless of the speed limit (aka the game mechanic and rules) I should only drive 55?

Driving 65 in a 55 zone is in violation of the set rule for all. Currently, in MWO, the speed limit is yet to be Officially (the rules) posted.

I think the OP's underlying question might be "can we (the community) do more to help our game?
One could only hope the majority of responses would be Yes. Sadly, this Thread pretty much proves otherwise. So yes, shame on PGI and just as much, shame on the "community".

Community by definition describes a group who have a common interest and attempt to better themselves through mutual efforts. MWO does not have a Community. It has a bunch of Gamers, mostly angry over the mere fact they didn't get what they wanted, and will tell the world how butt hurt they have become and how it's ALL the Devs fault.

Yup, Community, NOT!

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

Both are a work of fiction from where I sit.

No Comment! Next!...

Edited by Almond Brown, 27 May 2014 - 08:35 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

I see where Op's coming from and to an extent I agree with him, but have to say even if PGi had adopted a harsher custom system the min/ maxers would have still min maxed, and they would have still carried over the D-bag attitude, just the meta would be far more sensible, and your 12 man would have still stopped fed up with the win at all costs of the other team.

Players in every case will take a system further than the developers thought possible, which is why, there were arguments over the system PGI ran with, because while alot of us saw the negative, a lot of founders and tester wanted thedumb open custom system to exploite and fought for it, with the battle cry of this is Mech warrior not table top, and sadly these were the people PGI listend to, because it was easier for them at the start, though its a headache now to balance.

Its easy to be smug and right with hindsight, but it still leaves a screwed up game.

To a degree the players of the game are part of the problem, but that's always the case, and they don't do the programming and its to late to change, this is what we're getting, and the people that helped, break the game won't hold themselves accountable to PGI's failure to balance this mess, they will put it squarely in PGi's court, those of course that haven't left this game they see as a failure.

People can only decide how much they can put up with, and take, and I've set my line in the sand, and the clocks ticking

[Bishop Steiner]

Almond Brown, on 27 May 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

Driving 65 in a 55 zone is in violation of the set rule for all. Currently, in MWO, the speed limit is yet to be Officially (the rules) posted.

I think the OP's underlying question might be "can we (the community) do more to help our game?
One could only hope the majority of responses would be Yes. Sadly, this Thread pretty much proves otherwise. So yes, shame on PGI and just as much, shame on the "community".

Community by definition describes a group who have a common interest and attempt to better themselves through mutual efforts. MWO does not have a Community. It has a bunch of Gamers, mostly angry over the mere fact they didn't get what they wanted, and will tell the world how butt hurt they have become and how it ALL the Dev fault.

Yup, Community, NOT!

Please re-read my post. 65 in a 65 zone. Which is what the people to OP are complaining about. They aren't using aimbots or the like. They are doing the speed limit. But because the OP either dislikes the set limit or is unable to drive it himself, he chooses to castigate those who can, and do.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 May 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 27 May 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

Driving 65 in a 55 zone is in violation of the set rule for all. Currently, in MWO, the speed limit is yet to be Officially (the rules) posted.

I think the OP's underlying question might be "can we (the community) do more to help our game?
One could only hope the majority of responses would be Yes. Sadly, this Thread pretty much proves otherwise. So yes, shame on PGI and just as much, shame on the "community".

Community by definition describes a group who have a common interest and attempt to better themselves through mutual efforts. MWO does not have a Community. It has a bunch of Gamers, mostly angry over the mere fact they didn't get what they wanted, and will tell the world how butt hurt they have become and how it ALL the Dev fault.

Yup, Community, NOT!



No Comment! Next!...

Hey, one of my founding principles came from works of fiction!
My honor is my Life!

[Almond Brown]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

it's a free to play game. By it's definition, it will achieve it's final form ONLY after it shuts down. So you are saying for the entirety of it's existence, we should be bound by the opinions of what the (not quite) rules SHOULD mean, according to a select few, rather than what the Powers That Be, actually enforce?

That makes no sense, sorry.

So you agree then. There are no set rules as it is a F2P game? Good. So what rules are being broken by either side and where are these broken rules written down?

The solution to all of this, of course, is very simple. Remove all the offensive bits, but everyone gets to remove what they don't like or approve of, and see what is left.

My guess, SFA, worth bothering with. Expecting PGI to rebuild the foundation of MWO to suit the whims of a "few" borders on lunacy really. That is not to say it is not expected in EVERY game ever made in the past 35 years, but that doesn't make it right.

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

I've been married 25 years. Of course I do! As I tell most people, If whats being said is true... OWN it. If its not... Ignore it.

And when it is Lies, conjecture and general BS, and yet "you" (Dev) cannot respond in kind, then what Joe? Just man up right? Be the bigger person right?

Maybe the Community and Players could look into that same thought process as well then.

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 27 May 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

And when it is Lies, conjecture and general BS, and yet "you" (Dev) cannot respond in kind, then what Joe? Just man up right? Be the bigger person right?

Maybe the Community and Players could look into that same thought process as well then.

What do you mean, "I can't respond in kind."? I can, but whats the point? Why should I stoop to Lies, conjecture and general BS?

Depending on the Lie and who's spreading it... I will call the liar out to prove what they are saying.

[Almond Brown]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

Please tee read my post. 65 in a 65 zone. Which is what the people to OP are complaining about. They aren't using aimbots or the like. They are do inf the speed limit. But because the OP either dislikes the site limit or is unable to drive it himself, he chooses to castigate those who can, and do.

If that is what the OP implies, then that is his deal. I think the premise that the Players can help more than hinder, and hinder they do very well, is more of the slant I am pursuing.

Meta is Meta is Meta. Pick one and if you don't like any of it, you have 2 choices, pack your bags or try and get it fixed. But be assured, when Meta 1 is corrected, Meta 2 will appear like dandelions on a lawn. We can win the good "Fight" sometimes but be on notice, the "War" rages on...

But blaming PGI solely for decisions, many of which were strongly endorsed by the Players (CB) is just bad politicking.

The Open MechBay was the way to go, way more flexibility and choice. Funnily enough, the Stock Match Craze will soon fade as those same min/max'rs show up and "force" their BEST OF into that sphere of game-play too. 2-3 more weeks should about do it...

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

What do you mean, "I can't respond in kind."? I can, but whats the point? Why should I stoop to Lies, conjecture and general BS?

Depending on the Lie and who's spreading it... I will call the liar out to prove what they are saying.

PGI cannot do that publicly though. Garth was raked over the coals for even making a funny on the Forums that someone invariably took offense to. "How dare they treat their customers like that!"

They don't and can't respond Joe. That is the point. They are in no win situation and the beating never stops.

They carry on despite the "Forums" because they do see a "Community" in the rubble, buying and enjoying MWO for what it is. Perfect, not. As bad as many would have others believe, not even close.

As has been noted before. The F2P model puts many players into the game way earlier than ever in the past. The only change it makes is those players just don't get that it takes "a long time" to get a game to "stability". With this being what now 2.5 years in, in the old days the boxes would just be hitting shelves and the first Patched applied to the game PC's running it.

So in reality, this would be day 3 of MWO. I would think it was pretty good if that were the case. Other would disagree after 1 hours play time, surely, but that is where we are at now. Someone dnlds, plays 3 Matches and complains about the META (something they read about on a Forum somewhere, but don't really know WTF it is... lol

Edited by Almond Brown, 27 May 2014 - 08:57 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 27 May 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

PGI cannot do that publicly though. Garth was raked over the coals for even making a funny on the Forums that someone invariably took offense to. "How dare they treat their customers like that!"

They don't and can't respond Joe. That is the point. They are in no win situation and the beating never stops.

And who's fault is that? If we the players are so thin skinned that we cannot take a joke, then a man was fired for the truth, and that sir is a shame I will not tolerate.

I asked a Mod, If calling someone a name that is accurate (For instance calling Me arrogant), is still against the rules.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 May 2014 - 08:56 AM.