205 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

WarHippy, on 28 May 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

It really isn't opinion, or at least not the lower damage part because we have had lower damage before and almost nobody used them because they were junk even at 30 damage. That is why they upped it to 40 to begin with. As for arrival time that isn't the same as a longer cool down that I mentioned, but even then a long arrival time will also make them pretty pointless for anything other than a few seconds of making the enemy shift position in particular when it is rather easy to avoid as is.

What the heck are you talking about? Before arty only had 10 damage, and it was understandable why it wasn't picked. We never got to use them at 30 damage. Devs just suddenly boosted the damage by 400% from 10 to 40. Are you sure you are playing the same game or hasn't gone senile?

Making the enemy shift position is precisely why it is good against the prevalent meta. It is still worth the C-Bills.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 May 2014 - 01:07 PM.

[Mystere]

WarHippy, on 28 May 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

It really isn't opinion, or at least not the lower damage part because we have had lower damage before and almost nobody used them because they were junk even at 30 damage. That is why they upped it to 40 to begin with. As for arrival time that isn't the same as a longer cool down that I mentioned, but even then a long arrival time will also make them pretty pointless for anything other than a few seconds of making the enemy shift position in particular when it is rather easy to avoid as is.

Replace the red smoke with a 3-5 second TAG paint on a map coordinate and I will not mind a longer arrival time.

Edited by Mystere, 28 May 2014 - 01:08 PM.

[Maxx Blue]

Before trying anything like new mechanics, it is probably worth tweaking the variables we already have. I would start by increasing the global cooldown and the smoke warning duration. Also, this would be a PERFECT item to try out on the public test server. Leave it up for a week and let folks mess around with it to see how a potential change feels. I'm sure some of the larger groups would organize 12v12's to try it out and provide feedback. Maybe change the values every two or three days, adding one second to the smoke and 30 seconds to the global cooldown each time. I'd bet players would be able to figure out when play started to 'feel' different, and they started to consider other modules.

Seriously...use the test server for this. You will generate goodwill just by letting the players be involved in this process.

Edited by Maxx Blue, 28 May 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Gyrok, on 28 May 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

If strikes cost 300k cbills each...then it would be about right. 300k cbills is about what it should cost for ~250-400 free damage.

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

What the heck are you talking about? Before arty only had 10 damage, and it was understandable why it wasn't picked. We never got to use them at 30 damage. Devs just suddenly boosted the damage by 400% from 10 to 40. Are you sure you are playing the same game or hasn't gone senile?

Making the enemy shift position is precisely why it is good against the prevalent meta. It is still worth the C-Bills.

Searching for facts is Lostech.

http://mwomercs.com/...49-15-oct-2013/

Paul's Overbuffhammer said:

Airstrike damage per shell has been increased from 10 up to 40.
Artillery damage per shell has been increased from 10 up to 40.

Edit:
Yes, I'm fully aware that WarHippy wrote the original comment... "quotes" only work so effectively...

Edited by Deathlike, 28 May 2014 - 01:32 PM.

[WarHippy]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

What the heck are you talking about? Before arty only had 10 damage, and it was understandable why it wasn't picked. We never got to use them at 30 damage. Devs just suddenly boosted the damage by 400% from 10 to 40. Are you sure you are playing the same game or hasn't gone senile?

Senility is possible as there was so much discussion about consumables from the day they were announced to the day they were made usable that I might be mixing some things up in my head. Either way they need to be extremely careful with lowering the damage or they make them useless. Last night I stood dead center on both an artillery strike and an air strike while focus firing the person dropping them on me. I killed him and lost a fare amount of armor, but I lost no equipment and was able to continue fighting that match. I'm probably lucky that it wasn't worse, but that was the gamble I made to take out the threat and if the damage was lowered to even 30 that is a gamble I would be a fool not to take because at that point its almost a sure thing.

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Making the enemy shift position is precisely why it is good against the prevalent meta. It is still worth the C-Bills.

If they lower the damage, and/or decrease the frequency the enemy won't bother shifting position. It is only worth the c-bills if it is something to be feared. That being said what did you think of the suggestion I made ignoring the opening line you disliked?

[El Bandito]

WarHippy, on 28 May 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

Senility is possible as there was so much discussion about consumables from the day they were announced to the day they were made usable that I might be mixing some things up in my head. Either way they need to be extremely careful with lowering the damage or they make them useless. Last night I stood dead center on both an artillery strike and an air strike while focus firing the person dropping them on me. I killed him and lost a fare amount of armor, but I lost no equipment and was able to continue fighting that match. I'm probably lucky that it wasn't worse, but that was the gamble I made to take out the threat and if the damage was lowered to even 30 that is a gamble I would be a fool not to take because at that point its almost a sure thing. If they lower the damage, and/or decrease the frequency the enemy won't bother shifting position. It is only worth the c-bills if it is something to be feared. That being said what did you think of the suggestion I made ignoring the opening line you disliked?

See, we can argue about it round and round and offer up opinions, but what we need, and what PGI is finally going to do, is to lower the strike damage and actually see which one of us is right. And I for one, am glad that PGI has finally moved their lazy bums to nerf the strikes. At least then there will be some changes we can measure with.

Again, bottom line is to make strikes fall in line with other modules, not to keep it far ahead of everything. Meaning situational, not mandatory on all configs.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 May 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[WarHippy]

Deathlike, on 28 May 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

Searching for facts is Lostech.

http://mwomercs.com/...49-15-oct-2013/



Edit:
Yes, I'm fully aware that WarHippy wrote the original comment... "quotes" only work so effectively...

Yeah, I went and found that as well so I don't know what I was remembering. Perhaps it was something they tried on the test servers? I seem to recall damage at 20 then very soon after at 30, and people still complaining about uselessness. Either that or I completely fried my brain reading all those old threads about consumables.

[Deathlike]

WarHippy, on 28 May 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Yeah, I went and found that as well so I don't know what I was remembering. Perhaps it was something they tried on the test servers? I seem to recall damage at 20 then very soon after at 30, and people still complaining about uselessness. Either that or I completely fried my brain reading all those old threads about consumables.

Your brain is fried. I wrote 10k posts already. Surely your head would explode if you read them all!

[WarHippy]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

See, we can argue about it round and round and offer up opinions, but what we need, and what PGI is finally going to do, is to lower the strike damage and actually see which one of us is right. And I for one, am glad that PGI has finally moved their lazy bums to nerf the strikes. At least then there will be some changes we can measure with.

I just hope that they do thorough testing on the test servers first before they try to hammer over the top changes into place. I really don't want to see them anywhere near as pointless as they were.

[El Bandito]

WarHippy, on 28 May 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

I just hope that they do thorough testing on the test servers first before they try to hammer over the top changes into place. I really don't want to see them anywhere near as pointless as they were.

Even reducing them to 20 damage a pop, that's still twice as much damage as first incarnation. They will never be as useless as before. Unless Paul dies to one.

[WarHippy]

Deathlike, on 28 May 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Your brain is fried. I wrote 10k posts already. Surely your head would explode if you read them all!

Between you, Bishop, Joseph, and Roadbeer my brain probably needs a break.

[Mystere]

WarHippy, on 28 May 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

I just hope that they do thorough testing on the test servers first before they try to hammer over the top changes into place. I really don't want to see them anywhere near as pointless as they were.

Unfortunately, measuring player psychology is next to useless when done on a test server. How will they objectively measure FEAR on a test server players barely use?

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Even reducing them to 20 damage a pop, that's still twice as much damage as first incarnation. They will never be as useless as before. Unless Paul dies to one.

Yes, that makes them only half as useless as the original.

Edited by Mystere, 28 May 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[WarHippy]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Even reducing them to 20 damage a pop, that's still twice as much damage as first incarnation. They will never be as useless as before. Unless Paul dies to one.

At 20 damage I would be more than happy to stand there and take it because at best you are only going to get hit by one or two shots three if you are exceptionally unlucky, and even those are going to hit different locations. Sure, I would still probably try to avoid it in some circumstances, but at the same time dumping more fire down range is probably going to be the more effective play than giving ground and/or letting the enemy take a more advantageous position. Like you said though we can probably argue round and round and never come to an agreement. I just hope it gets a great deal more testing than the normal 2 hour test window before they release it to the live servers.

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Even reducing them to 20 damage a pop, that's still twice as much damage as first incarnation. They will never be as useless as before. Unless Paul dies to one.

That assumes... Paul plays the game!

[El Bandito]

WarHippy, on 28 May 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

At 20 damage I would be more than happy to stand there and take it because at best you are only going to get hit by one or two shots three if you are exceptionally unlucky, and even those are going to hit different locations. Sure, I would still probably try to avoid it in some circumstances, but at the same time dumping more fire down range is probably going to be the more effective play than giving ground and/or letting the enemy take a more advantageous position. Like you said though we can probably argue round and round and never come to an agreement. I just hope it gets a great deal more testing than the normal 2 hour test window before they release it to the live servers.

Now multiply that damage by the number of locations hit + number of teammates hit and you might see that the enemy who did the strike can have a significant lead over you just by using a single module. And how exactly are you going to dump more fire effectively when your screen is shaking and is covered with explosions?

Deathlike, on 28 May 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

That assumes... Paul plays the game!

He probably tried out during the second faction tourney and got blasted face full of Artillery+LRMs+ACs. Hence the nerfs and new anti-LRM modules.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 May 2014 - 02:07 PM.

[WarHippy]

The question of damage aside I still think the suggestion I made on the previous page would at least make the mechanic of arty/air more interesting from a gameplay perspective. I guess in the end that's all I'm looking for is for them to be both usable and interesting. Right now they are usable, but they are not particularly interesting or enhancing to the game play.

[Gyrok]

Mystere, on 28 May 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

Replace the red smoke with a 3-5 second TAG paint on a map coordinate and I will not mind a longer arrival time.

As long as when you hop off the ridge it is interrupted, or plants right in your face when the TAG hits the rocks in front of you from bad terrain hit boxes...ok.

#artyyourself

[WarHippy]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

Now multiply that damage by the number of locations hit + number of teammates hit and you might see that the enemy who did the strike can have a significant lead over you just by using a single module. And how exactly are you going to dump more fire effectively when your screen is shaking and is covered with explosions?

The number of location hit doesn't concern me anymore so than the guy hitting me in random locations with an AC/20(individually 20 damage really isn't that much), and as for teammates hit that doesn't really matter to me anymore than them getting hit by more conventional means. If I can risk ignoring the shake and the damage now to keep fighting what makes you think at lower damage it is even going to concern me? One enemy player who has an inflated damage score because he happened to hit a few of my teammates for individually insignificant damage doesn't bother me.

[TB Freelancer]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 27 May 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

I've seen a neat one so far about more warning, are there other ways in particular that it disturbs gameplay or seems to make things unfair?

To be honest I really don't mind seeing a little arty/air in a match, or even the damage they are capable of producing. My two biggest gripes with air/arty strikes are the sheer amount of them seen in some matches and some of the ways they can be used i.e. a poptart can jump, drop a strike, or a light doing a drive by. They are simply too easy to use and should require a little more deliberate action to make happen, not just shooting them from the hip.

One idea would be for the mech to be required to paint the targeted ground for 'x' amount of time before a strike can be called, or that they paint the area from the time they call the strike to when it actually begins otherwise it either simply doesn't happen or gets spread so wide that its a waste of cbills/mc.

Another idea, since no one seems to use the accuracy modules would be to require them to maintain the current AoE and spread the current AoE so wide that without the accuracy module, strikes are more a psychological tool than a damaging one. That would significantly increase the investment to run strikes by doubling the modules required to use them. It would also greatly diminishing the number of mechs who double up on air/arty, relieving one of the biggest complaints, that being the sheer number of them teams are capable of fielding.

They could also be made, with maybe a few exceptions and either or case. You can have air, or you can have arty, only select mechs (if any) could carry both.

Personally I think things like air/arty, even UAVs should be restricted to certain types of mechs or roles. For instance, air/arty to command mechs or lance/company leaders, UAVs to scout mechs.