147 replies to this topic

[Deitz]

E N E R G Y, on 07 June 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

So long as the heat doesn't totally nerf/eliminate/pose a huge threat to jump sniping, I'm OK with it. I'm sure this "JJ heat" is going to be negligible and very similar to the "jump jet shake" added to JJ mechs.

In other words, we just snipers are going to barely notice it and otherwise adapt, so if you kiddies thought this was the end of jump sniping, think again

I suspect it will keep us down for a little bit, but what they don't realize is the build and precision that is learned with that build. The more actuate we are, the more deadly we are. Keeping us out of the sky will just help keep our DPS up. LoL

[ImperialKnight]

Light mechs should not take fall damage and Class V JJs should produce no heat. Stop nerfing a class that already nobody wants to play

[TheFuzzyBunny]

So let me get this straight....

1) Jump Jets range in tonnage from 1/2 ton for the class V-IV, 1 ton for class III-II, and a whopping 2 tons for class I.
2) Jump jets generate more thrust and agility based on class. Class V being the best, and class I being the worst.
3) Jump jets will now also generate more heat based on class as well. Class V being the least, and class I being the most.

So, what I get from all that, is that you hate the Highlander.... It's the only user of the Class I Jump Jet. You have to put the most Jump Jets on, because of the scale to thrust and agility. They weigh TWO to FOUR times the amount of the other jump jets. Finally even using the over weighted, sadly under powered things, will heat you up the most....

You're heavy handed attempts to curb the poptarting meta is not going in the right direction. Either level the jump jet weights across the board, then implement all these other changes based on class. Or, even better, keep the weight differeance the like the are now and base these changes on the NUMBER of jump jets used by the mech.

One class I jump jet should do the same heat, thrust, and agility a class V does. You pay the difference in the TONNAGE, and the fact you can only mount a smaller number of them normally. If you limit the amount of jump jets you're able to use based on the mechs top speed you will remove a lot of these problems, so for example 1 jump jet able to be mounted per 20 KPH. So if your top speed is 60ish KPH you can only mount 3 jump jets, if its 160 then you can mount 8. If you set the amount of thrust and agility based on the amount of jets you equip you easily level the field with out all of this sillyness you're doing now. The Highlander with it's three jump jets, that cost six tons, would still be significantly inferior to the Jenner with it's 8 jump jets, that cost only four tons.

[Galenit]

I miss a relevant part:

When is the heat calculated?

Every 0.1 seconds, every 1 seconds?

[ApolloKaras]

I can see this hurting lights..... Lol a Spider 5V with all 12 Jets... 1.2 heat per second that's a lot of heat. Sounds like a good time to add 'quirks' to specific chassis say the 5V, 5K Spiders: no heat generated when jump Jets are used.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Saxie, on 07 June 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

I can see this hurting lights..... Lol a Spider 5V with all 12 Jets... 1.2 heat per second that's a lot of heat. Sounds like a good time to add 'quirks' to specific chassis say the 5V, 5K Spiders: no heat generated when jump Jets are used.

Umm except they didn't say 0.1 heat per second.

Read the whole damn post.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

So long as the heat doesn't totally nerf/eliminate/pose a huge threat to jump sniping, I'm OK with it. I'm sure this "JJ heat" is going to be negligible and very similar to the "jump jet shake" added to JJ mechs.

In other words, we just snipers are going to barely notice it and otherwise adapt, so if you kiddies thought this was the end of jump sniping, think again

Yep limited effect on jump snipers while killing jump brawlers. I seem to see a trend with changes.

[Zordicron]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 06 June 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

Salutations!

Please let us know your thoughts on the latest news from Paul on Jump Jets!
http://mwomercs.com/...-jet-heat-ramp/

NO NO NO NO NO

WHY: In MWO, adding JJ to your mech has minimal increase in accerleration force beyond the first JJ. What adding more JJ in MWO does: increases the size of fuel bar, which is a side step way of allowing more JJ to "jump farther". What additional JJ should do, is add acceleration force so that you jump farther over the same time as 1 JJ.

THIS IS WHY LINEAR HEAT IS NOT THE RIGHT SOLUTION. Think about it: more JJ = LONGER DURATION OF JJ FIRE. Now we have linear heat WHILE JJ ARE FIRING.

WAIT. so, in order to jump farther, you have to add JJ, but not so they make you go farther, but so they give you enough thrust time to make it that far. BUT NOW, USING THE LONGER BURN DURATION TO MOVE WILL MAKE YOU TAKE MUCH MORE HEAT OVER THE DURATION.

THIS IS A PENALTY TO THINGS LIKE 8-12 JJ SPIDERS.

If you guys want to do a heat scale like this, you must rework JJ to add acceleration force so that it works more like TT, where more JJ = more jump distance through simple additive math, and not through jump duration. if you want a linera heat scale:

1 JJ should fire for 1 second(example) and jump distance X
12 JJ should fire for 1 second(example) and jump distance x*12.
Linear scale could be used, heat would build faster for the 12 jj mech, but not because they have more fuel, but because they are using more JJ. However, the 12 JJ mech now gains advantage for the extra heat because it can jump much farther then the single JJ mech.

Current in game method of JJ use is to use 1 or 2, because that is really all that is required for the poptart system to work. Putting more on simply gives you more reserve fuel so you can use the JJ a little more often, or in succession, etc. HOWEVER, NOW, ADDING THE LINEAR HEAT= NO CHANGE for the 1-2 JJ mechs, and RAGING INFERNO for 12 JJ spider when both jump max distances, because more distance requires more duration in MWO not just more JJ.

YOU GUYS ARE APPLYING A HEAT MECHANIC TO A SYSTEM THAT WORKS THE OPPOSITE OF HOW THE HEAT MECHANIC WOULD LOGICALLY BE APPLIED.

IF you are doing this to curb poptarts, it is going to fail. It is going to be a more severe penalty to mechs that use numerous JJ for terrain travel, by far, then for mechs that use them to hop up and down because, again, more JJ in MWO simply = more duration/fuel bar to get the longer jump distance. Linear heat +more duration= linear heat*jump distance.

Mechs already pay a tonnage and slots cost to get longer jump distances. Now they will pay a heat cost as well. Linear heat reinforces, with a hammer, the pattern of only putting one jet(or maybe 2 max) on a mech loadout. IF you go through with this linear heat scale change, i strongly suggest you look at ACCELERATION SCALE AND MAKE IT LINEAR ALSO, COMBINED WITH FLAT CAP ON FUEL BAR so that fuel bar/fire duration is the same on one jet or 20.

[New Breed]

E N E R G Y, on 07 June 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

So long as the heat doesn't totally nerf/eliminate/pose a huge threat to jump sniping, I'm OK with it. I'm sure this "JJ heat" is going to be negligible and very similar to the "jump jet shake" added to JJ mechs.

In other words, we just snipers are going to barely notice it and otherwise adapt, so if you kiddies thought this was the end of jump sniping, think again

Guess what, if the change isn't enough you can bet they will do something else. If they want people to watch tournaments do you think they want the public to see EVERYONE using JJ PPC AC5?. I'll give you a hint, the answer is no.

Edited by Ghost Bear, 07 June 2014 - 01:12 PM.

[anonymous161]

Doubt it will solve the pop tart issue they dont typically go super high or have it on the whole time.

A shame all the maps have tons of high hills everyone is gonna end p being a lot hotter now which will just slow down the matches.

Still maybe it will work to improve other things though.

[Gorgo7]

AWESOME!

[Prezimonto]

Reigning in, slightly, poptarts (probably not much since they often don't use a full completement of JJ anyway), which potentially crushing already under performing mechs like the Spider 5V.

Hurrah.

Eldagore, on 07 June 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

NO NO NO NO NO

WHY: In MWO, adding JJ to your mech has minimal increase in accerleration force beyond the first JJ. What adding more JJ in MWO does: increases the size of fuel bar, which is a side step way of allowing more JJ to "jump farther". What additional JJ should do, is add acceleration force so that you jump farther over the same time as 1 JJ.

THIS IS WHY LINEAR HEAT IS NOT THE RIGHT SOLUTION. Think about it: more JJ = LONGER DURATION OF JJ FIRE. Now we have linear heat WHILE JJ ARE FIRING.

WAIT. so, in order to jump farther, you have to add JJ, but not so they make you go farther, but so they give you enough thrust time to make it that far. BUT NOW, USING THE LONGER BURN DURATION TO MOVE WILL MAKE YOU TAKE MUCH MORE HEAT OVER THE DURATION.

THIS IS A PENALTY TO THINGS LIKE 8-12 JJ SPIDERS.

If you guys want to do a heat scale like this, you must rework JJ to add acceleration force so that it works more like TT, where more JJ = more jump distance through simple additive math, and not through jump duration. if you want a linera heat scale:

1 JJ should fire for 1 second(example) and jump distance X
12 JJ should fire for 1 second(example) and jump distance x*12.
Linear scale could be used, heat would build faster for the 12 jj mech, but not because they have more fuel, but because they are using more JJ. However, the 12 JJ mech now gains advantage for the extra heat because it can jump much farther then the single JJ mech.

Current in game method of JJ use is to use 1 or 2, because that is really all that is required for the poptart system to work. Putting more on simply gives you more reserve fuel so you can use the JJ a little more often, or in succession, etc. HOWEVER, NOW, ADDING THE LINEAR HEAT= NO CHANGE for the 1-2 JJ mechs, and RAGING INFERNO for 12 JJ spider when both jump max distances, because more distance requires more duration in MWO not just more JJ.

YOU GUYS ARE APPLYING A HEAT MECHANIC TO A SYSTEM THAT WORKS THE OPPOSITE OF HOW THE HEAT MECHANIC WOULD LOGICALLY BE APPLIED.

IF you are doing this to curb poptarts, it is going to fail. It is going to be a more severe penalty to mechs that use numerous JJ for terrain travel, by far, then for mechs that use them to hop up and down because, again, more JJ in MWO simply = more duration/fuel bar to get the longer jump distance. Linear heat +more duration= linear heat*jump distance.

Mechs already pay a tonnage and slots cost to get longer jump distances. Now they will pay a heat cost as well. Linear heat reinforces, with a hammer, the pattern of only putting one jet(or maybe 2 max) on a mech loadout. IF you go through with this linear heat scale change, i strongly suggest you look at ACCELERATION SCALE AND MAKE IT LINEAR ALSO, COMBINED WITH FLAT CAP ON FUEL BAR so that fuel bar/fire duration is the same on one jet or 20.

This guy get's it.

Please read and carefully consider his points.

Edited by Prezimonto, 07 June 2014 - 01:48 PM.

[TamerSA]

Since I'm not really pro or smart enough to run meta (and mostly prefer playing builds I like for fun rather than conforming to what people tell me is the best), I was wondering:

Ignoring the new suggestions on fall damage, do poptarts even care about overheating?... Don't they just jump up, snipe, and then fall back into cover... what difference does added heat make to this scenario?

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I need some clarification, PGI

Are you suggesting that a Dragon Slayer with 2 jump jets is a more efficient jumper than a Dragon Slayer with 4 jump jets?
I am failing to see why a mech would want more jump jets, which weight more, and generate more heat, and provide zero benefit.

Like the Battletech game I would love to see mechs taking as many jump jets as available to them because it is the best build. I have been extremely disappointed that your hero and champion mechs only bring 2, it is such a Meta thing to do (yes Meta is a derogatory adjective).

[Butane9000]

You should really force that scaling way way up to make it so the only time a heavy or assault mech uses their jump jets is for actually moving around terrain. Or just add ghost heat.

[ATao]

Paul, please don't forget that Victor still retains it's unique position with class II JJs. It's an assault mech with JJs of a heavy mech. Where's the logic? Make Victor use class I JJs like all other assaults.

[DjPush]

I like the idea because I rarely use use jump jets. when I do. They help me to get up hills or jump over mechs. I'm willing to bet the ones complaining most about this have a Victor with 8 Class I JJ's loaded with 2 PPC's and (some array of AC). They are upset because their "optimized" mech is no longer "optimized" to kill in the most "optimized" way.

[DjPush]

I like how every one is making light mechs out to be so innocent of the poptarting game. THAT IS ALL THEY DO!!! JUMP AND SHOOT YOUR BUTT WHILE IN MID AIR. Most of them are mounted with ERPPC.


ERPPC'S!!!!!!!!!

Edited by DjPush, 08 June 2014 - 08:27 AM.

[Prezimonto]

DjPush, on 08 June 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

I like how every one is making light mechs out to be so innocent of the poptarting game. THAT IS ALL THEY DO!!! JUMP AND SHOOT YOUR BUTT WHILE IN MID AIR. Most of them are mounted with ERPPC.


ERPPC'S!!!!!!!!!

I agree that it's silly that a number of lights can run an ERPPC, spiders included, but you have to give up most of your JJ to manage it, or most of your armor and you need an XL...

I'm not saying it's right, the Panther is totally pointless as a mech, much like the Hunchback is basically pointless in the medium category because we don't have sized hard points.

The Spider 5V CAN NOT run a PPC though... only 2 energy hard points in the center torso where there's only 2 open slots. It's benefit is 12 class 5 jump jets. It's already a mostly useless mech in anything but stock mech monday matches, and this will only make it worse.

[Cimarb]

Alexander Malthus, on 07 June 2014 - 11:40 PM, said:

Paul, please don't forget that Victor still retains it's unique position with class II JJs. It's an assault mech with JJs of a heavy mech. Where's the logic? Make Victor use class I JJs like all other assaults.

It's because they use different metrics to determine JJ class as weight class. Weight is four classes, while JJs have five classes. This causes mechs at the low end of the weight class to fall into the high end of the JJ class.