208 replies to this topic

[Thunder Child]

Low Gravity on HPG + Spider-5V running 12 JJs = Home Run?
Because he's outta the Park!

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Thunder Child, on 06 June 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Low Gravity on HPG + Spider-5V running 12 JJs = Home Run?
Because he's outta the Park!

Going out of bounds that way once or twice will breed caution.

[Amaris the Usurper]

This is good, but...

The best way to balance jump sniping is to eliminate jump sniping: make weapons inaccurate while airborne, period.

With that done, jump jets can be buffed until they become worth taking because they improve maneuverability in close combat. You know, like they should per canon (and, more importantly, common sense).

This from a repeat-offending poptart who has no choice but wishes he did.

[Thunder Child]

ShadowWolf Kell, on 06 June 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

Going out of bounds that way once or twice will breed caution.

But... But.... I believe I can Flyyy. I believe I can Touch the Skyyyyyy. I think about it evvery *Poof, explodes as 6 poptarts line up the launching Spider*

[Pariah Devalis]

Thunder Child, on 06 June 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

But... But.... I believe I can Flyyy. I believe I can Touch the Skyyyyyy. I think about it evvery *Poof, explodes as 6 poptarts line up the launching Spider*

Sounds like an improvement to Clan Nova Cat's target practice sessions. XD

[Thunder Child]

But on a serious note, I am loving how this is looking. My only concern is the effects of increased Heat on JJ Brawlers, as they tend to redline anyways. That, and I really hope a controlled landing causes NO damage.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Amaris the Usurper, on 06 June 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

... snip ...

No.

Jump sniping is a valid tactic, and should be a viable means of dealing damage. It should not, however be the end-all-be-all solution to every engagement (like it is now).

Jump jet brawling should be valid tactic, as well, and having continuous shake while airborne would hurt this as bad (or worse).

Increasing the heat for jumping and damage for falling will, at a minimum, make it a bit more difficult to jump snipe continuously. I don't like the idea that the risk you incur for jump sniping is self-imposed (i.e.: you might leg yourself).

Another solution might be to gradually taper off jump jet shake, so that instead of immediately having no shake after cutting your jets, it takes maybe a half second for the shaking to completely stop. You could shoot before then, minimizing your risk to being shot at a penalty to accuracy or jump higher, cut your jets, wait until the shaking stops, then shoot, increasing the risk that you get hit by incoming fire.

[Amaris the Usurper]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 06 June 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

Jump sniping is a valid tactic[.]

What do you mean by "valid"?

Anything you can do without breaking rules is valid, but that does not mean that it improves the game. By that reasoning, any game that has rules is the best it could possibly be merely because it has rules. Which is absurd.

What does jump sniping bring to the table that makes it a necessary component of MWO?

Edit: Also, I am not proposing shake while airborne (which would make no sense). I am proposing cone of fire while airborne.

Edited by Amaris the Usurper, 06 June 2014 - 06:53 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Can we please get some verification from PGI on if every mech in the air for more than one second will take damage? If this is indeed true they have just ended use of jump jets in brawling.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Amaris the Usurper, on 06 June 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

What do you mean by "valid"?

I mean that it is a tactic that should be a part of the game, just like brawling, missile fire support, scouting, hit-and-run striking, etc.

The problem right now, is that it gives the most rewards for the least risk. I like that this fix increases the risk and the skill threshold for minimizing that risk, but don't necessarily like that the risk is solely controlled by the jump sniper. I would prefer something that increases the risk of the jump sniper being damaged by opponents, rather than himself.

Edited for grammar and clarity.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 06 June 2014 - 07:11 PM.

[NemesisXIII]

It seems disappointing that the threshold at which you take damage isn't being addressed better especially for light mechs. My locusts and jenners take damage at the slightest of falls. One second *might* work but still seems to be too little. Maybe it should be like gauss rifles- 1.5 seconds...

[Wintersdark]

Cimarb, on 06 June 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

We definitely need to know this, as it makes a LOT of difference. I would assume feathering the fall will lessen the damage, just like it currently does, but verification would be great.

Yeah. These (command chair) posts are generally not written to bear "rules lawyering".

I understand how its actually written, but as I said above, I think a more liberal interpretation is still that fall damage is scaled by speed with zero damage at lower fall speeds. That, because it makes sense. Now, I'm not going to argue with people about it, but a literal interpretation of what they posted doesn't make much sense in any way. Suffering minimum damage for any jump over 1s is quite simply ridiculous. As such, people should put on their thinking caps.

A 1s minimum to take any damage is good, as it prevents odd falls/slides down mountains and such from doing absurd damage. But taking damage from any jump where you've been in the air for more than a second, even if you just lightly touch down? That's silly.

Of course, there is a possibility that PGI means to do exactly as this post said, but that's pretty unlikely. (Queue "PGI did this other stupid thing so they'll clearly implement this in a ridiculous way" comments)

[Amaris the Usurper]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 06 June 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

I mean that it is a tactic that should be a part of the game, just like brawling, missile fire support, scouting, hit-and-run striking, etc.

The problem right now, is that it is give the most rewards for the least risk.

Good answer. Your idea about the inaccuracy lasting a short period after deactivating the jets is solid. That way, the jumper is more exposed, and there is a longer window to return fire.

I would be satisfied if jump sniping were reduced to one among many tactics that are situationally valid, as you propose.

Also, concerning your comments about fall damage being a self-imposed deterrent, I can only assume that all 'mechs will continue to be able to jump straight up for full duration and fall back down to the same level without taking damage, as is the case currently (AFAIK). So you would be able to (1) jump safely and present an easy target or (2) present a harder target at greater risk of significant leg damage. I often choose to exchange a couple of points of leg damage for a chance to fire at the enemy; if this is increased to ten points, I will have to plan my attacks much more carefully. This situation seems to fit your criteria pretty well, since the enemy can maneuver in such a way that my only means of inflicting damage involves damaging myself (even if they do not inflict the damage directly).

Edit: But maybe they mean what they say, in which case the argument still applies.

Edited by Amaris the Usurper, 06 June 2014 - 07:46 PM.

[Lily from animove]

not really sure.

its good that it increased.
But its too low for lights.
It takes "time in th air" as a calculation variable? Why? this should be height and not time in th air, or dos thiis "time in the air" means dropping time?

So when I jump from a low ground on a high building needing 2 seconds, while this makes me drop maybe 2m only when I cross the buildings edge to land on its roof, then I will take damage?

[Lyoto Machida]

Wouldn't it make more sense to apply the damage to internal structure instead of armor (or both)? Or a chance at a leg actuator failure? Even though, technically, actuators don't really do much of anything but crit pad.

[Felio]

My hope is that below a certain number, this damage rounds down to zero. Lights should not take damage in the normal course of running around on bumpy terrain.

EDIT: Never mind, I had missed the new 1-second rule.

Edited by Felio, 06 June 2014 - 07:43 PM.

[OznerpaG]

so how will this affect pop-tarting as a skill compared to what it is now then? will it turn into gauss - you really have to practice it to use it effectively?

note in 3500 games i'v never even tried pop-tarting so i don't know anything specific about the details and intricacies of executing it - i only know everyone complains about it lol

Edited by JagdFlanker, 06 June 2014 - 08:00 PM.

[Leigus]

Good stuff! Keep this up!

[Nyden]

As someone who speaks English as a first language and is generally considered a pretty good writer in that language, I feel pretty confident in saying that if they had meant you would take damage when falling at ANY speed they would have said that rather than 30ft/s-60ft/s.

They're implying that there isn't a damage multiplier less than 1 or more than 1.4. Naturally, values below the threshold will be at a x0 multiplier and values above (unless the engine caps fall speed at 60 ft/s) will be at the maximum multiplier (1.4). If that isn't what they meant then their ability to communicate in written English leaves much to be desired. Especially seeing as this is a formal Command Chair post.

They could have said that damage scales from 0 - 60 ft/sec. They could have said that damage is at a flat x1 multiplier up to 30 ft/sec, at which point it starts to increase. They didn't say either of those things; There was definitely a minimum - maximum threshold.

Also, as someone who has an excellent grasp of Newtonian physics, I can tell you that if your jumping from a low position to a ledge you will not be falling very far (you fall from where the jump jets stop providing thrust) before you stop and, therefore, you won't be falling very fast. On the other hand, if you have 4 or 6 jump jets and use all your fuel going straight up, you will be falling very quickly by the time you hit the ground.


On a related note, why are the physics in this game so poor? Why isn't gravity implemented? It should effect projectile range as well as jump and fall speed. I had always thought that the great advantage of the cryengine was its ability to handle physics, but that may just be because so many of the games using it happen to have great physics.

Edited by Nyden, 06 June 2014 - 08:12 PM.

[Onlystolen]

I wonder how this will effect the glitches that occur, when a mech collides with another mech and is then tossed into the air and then is placed back on the ground. how will glitches and other sort of mechanics effect mechs? what if a light is legged due to this glitch? what will happen in that case?