106 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Everyone says its "so easy" to deal high amounts of damage and kills jump sniping.

Yet, none of you has video evidence to prove it.

Why is that?

If jump sniping is "taking over" the game and "dominating" everything.

Why is it that none of you can prove it?

Because I only have 2 gigs of ram, and video recording while gaming would cause my PC to catch fire.

But honestly...how can you not see that poptarting is the least challenging and most rewarding playstyle? It takes very little "skill", since MWO doesn't have anything to curb it. Don't fire until you let go of the JJs, and you have no penalty.


It's too easy to do.

[Rhent]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

If it was easy to pull off, there would be video clips of people scoring 1000+ damage jump sniping.

Could you find me even a single clip of someone in this game doing a lot of damage jump sniping, thus proving its "too easy"?

I see a lot of people *trying* to jump snipe who get murdered without breaking 200 damage. Maybe its not as easy as you think it is?

1. An atlas is supposed to be rare.
2. Clan technology is supposed to be rare.
3. Poptarts are supposed to be rare.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

It doesn't matter whether its supposed to be rare or not.

What matters is what is good or bad for the game.

It would be bad for the game if there were only 20 atlas.

It would be bad for the game if there were only 20 madcats.

It would be bad for the game if there were only 8 poptarts.

Trying to nerf poptarts to a point where there are only 8 poptarts is as bad as limiting the number of atlas or clan mechs in this game.

It doesn't make sense and there's no reason for it.



Everyone says its "so easy" to deal high amounts of damage and kills jump sniping.

Yet, none of you has video evidence to prove it.

Why is that?

If jump sniping is "taking over" the game and "dominating" everything.

Why is it that none of you can prove it?

Idiot, look at ALL of the champion ship videos, 80% of the matches were a bulk of poptarts versus poptarts. Are you that dense or inbred that you can't go: "gee, maybe if the bulk of the championship matches were poptarts" it might be indicative of an abused playstyle. Just saying or are you that stupid that you can't critically judge for yourself.

I understand not wanting to see your favorite low risk high reward tactic to get adjusted, but its needed if this game is going to continue to grow. Once you hit ELO hell, you are stuck with poptart scum like yourself. SCREW that. I'm purposely playing other builds to avoid the Victor/Highlander/3D mess. After switching to a VTR-DS to compensate for it, the play style is lame as it comes. Pop, fire, torso twist, land, move, pop, fire, torso twist, land and rinse and repeat again and again until you want to vomit. To have to play a certain build in a certain mech to be competitive is a PRIME example of a broken system.

[KharnZor]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

#1 Jump sniping is rare & might be difficult to pull off in this game. Then again, an atlas is supposed to be rare. Yet we see 8 of them in some games. Who says everything needs to conform 100% to battletech canon?

#2 Jumpjet sniping & brawling have been an integral part of every mechwarrior game ever. Its always been easier to successfully shoot a mech in the cockpit by using jump jets. That's the way its been in the mechwarrior genre for the last 10+ years. Things have always been this way. How could it not be canon?

#3 Poptarts never do 500 damage, much less 900 damage. If you jump enough to hit those numbers your legs will be completely destroyed probably before you manage to do 400 damage. Try it, sometime. Try to do 500 damage jump sniping. I bet none of you complaining about jump snipers being "overpowered" could manage to do even 400 damage jump sniping.



Finally someone honest who knows what they're talking about.

You got it right. Jump sniping isn't overpowered. You won't get a lot of kills or do a lot of damage doing it.

I think tournament players add jump jets to give them a plan b option. Its so they have more options other than going around the corner. .

Totally clueless.
Before i put the meta aside to increase my enjoyment of the game it wasnt uncommon for me to do 800+ damage in my Highlander, rarely going below 600 damage with kill totals that varied from 0 to 9 (if i was lucky) and there are way better pilots out there now doing the same.
What your post shows is a lack of any real knowledge of whats going on with the game currently.
Now, back to the corner you go.

[YueFei]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

#3 Poptarts never do 500 damage, much less 900 damage. If you jump enough to hit those numbers your legs will be completely destroyed probably before you manage to do 400 damage. Try it, sometime. Try to do 500 damage jump sniping. I bet none of you complaining about jump snipers being "overpowered" could manage to do even 400 damage jump sniping.

If the poptarts you've seen wreck their own legs, they aren't that good. Good jump snipers make the shortest possible jump to get a shot, like <10 meter high jumps. The initial lift from JJs is very fast, so you can clear cover quickly to fire. To jump unnecessarily high exposes you to return fire for much longer, because you'll rise slowly after the initial lift and hang in the air longer.

The proposed leg damage mechanic overhaul is actually going to screw over non-JJ mechs and non-poptarting JJ mechs trying to get big air or make huge leaps. With the proposed mechanic, you can fall 5 meters and damage your legs. To put that in perspective, a Centurion is 14 meters tall. Basically you can fall less than waist-high and damage your legs. Non-JJ mechs won't have any way to cushion their falls. And the JJ-using mechs who aren't poptarts will injure themselves if they try to make giant leaps.

Meanwhile the skilled jump sniper just keeps on keeping on. Paul aims his nerf gun and misses again. And, as usual, hits innocent bystanders.

[YueFei]

Speaking of the proposed fall-damage mechanic: now, I don't think very highly of Paul's understanding of the game, or even his ability to do some basic investigation into relative weapon balance and strengths and weaknesseses.

But, it absolutely baffles me how he can propose to make 5-meter falls damaging to mechs. That's like a human falling 2 feet and hurting his legs. Does the man just have no sense of scaling? I have jumped off the roofs of houses from 10 feet up, nearly twice my height, and landed without injury. Pretty soon though my Centurion is gonna fall from something barely taller than its knees and hurt itself. Do all of our mechs have arthritis or something?

[FupDup]

YueFei, on 08 June 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

Speaking of the proposed fall-damage mechanic: now, I don't think very highly of Paul's understanding of the game, or even his ability to do some basic investigation into relative weapon balance and strengths and weaknesseses.

But, it absolutely baffles me how he can propose to make 5-meter falls damaging to mechs. That's like a human falling 2 feet and hurting his legs. Does the man just have no sense of scaling? I have jumped off the roofs of houses from 10 feet up, nearly twice my height, and landed without injury. Pretty soon though my Centurion is gonna fall from something barely taller than its knees and hurt itself. Do all of our mechs have arthritis or something?

When the changes get added, I think we'll need a new Life Alert consumable that calls in some construction mechs to drag you back to base.

"Help I've fallen (off a 10 meter drop) and I can't get up."



Heck, maybe this is why one of the bonus modules is going to be faster movement speed while legged. Tinfoil hat, ENGAGED!

Edited by FupDup, 08 June 2014 - 02:18 PM.

[YueFei]

FupDup, on 08 June 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

When the changes get added, I think we'll need a new Life Alert consumable that calls in some construction mechs to drag you back to base.

"Help I've fallen (off a 10 meter drop) and I can't get up."



Heck, maybe this is why one of the bonus modules is going to be faster movement speed while legged. Tinfoil hat, ENGAGED!

LOL!

Is that new bonus module for real? I don't even.... I..... wha?

[FupDup]

YueFei, on 08 June 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

LOL!

Is that new bonus module for real? I don't even.... I..... wha?

Yup, it is. They announced it in the most recent VLOG but didn't give any specific values.

[divinedisclaimer]

JUST ADD FUEL TO JUMP JETS SO THAT AN ATTEMPTED JUMP IS AN ATTACK THAT COSTS A RESOURCE.

The problem is that you can jump endlessly fishing for firing opportunity. Make it so that jumping just to check if there's a target potentially wastes an opportunity to fire at that target (since you aren't ready for their exact position) and then tune the fuel costs down.

Scale those costs based on weight class so the light mech jumpjet game isn't broken.

[Toadkillerdog]

alright guys, this zeratul guy is either in denial or just trolling, but either way let's stop feeding him.

divinedisclaimer, on 08 June 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

JUST ADD FUEL TO JUMP JETS SO THAT AN ATTEMPTED JUMP IS AN ATTACK THAT COSTS A RESOURCE.

The problem is that you can jump endlessly fishing for firing opportunity. Make it so that jumping just to check if there's a target potentially wastes an opportunity to fire at that target (since you aren't ready for their exact position) and then tune the fuel costs down.

Scale those costs based on weight class so the light mech jumpjet game isn't broken.

while this would hurt poptarts, it would hurt mechs that actually use them as intended a lot more. Lights would be effected by this a lot more, since they have to constantly run and jump, rather than simply wait till targets are in sight. Decent idea, but scaling it I think is a bit beyond PGI's abilities. Honestly, the leg damage thing isn't a terrible idea, since assaults that aren't poptarting only occasionally use thier JJs, like when you're running around canyon

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Mcgral18, on 08 June 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

But honestly...how can you not see that poptarting is the least challenging and most rewarding playstyle? It takes very little "skill", since MWO doesn't have anything to curb it. Don't fire until you let go of the JJs, and you have no penalty. It's too easy to do.

Is poptarting easier than locking on and firing LRM's?

Is it easier than holding down the button to fire AC's and aim?

How can you say poptarting is easier than either of the above with a straight face?

Obviously, there are a lot of things in this game easier and less challenging than poptarting.

The real question is, why poptarting should be nerfed.

Claiming poptarting is the "easiest" and "least challenging" thing in the game is ridiculous & makes no sense.

Rhent, on 08 June 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Idiot, look at ALL of the champion ship videos, 80% of the matches were a bulk of poptarts versus poptarts. Are you that dense or inbred that you can't go: "gee, maybe if the bulk of the championship matches were poptarts" it might be indicative of an abused playstyle. Just saying or are you that stupid that you can't critically judge for yourself.

I understand not wanting to see your favorite low risk high reward tactic to get adjusted, but its needed if this game is going to continue to grow. Once you hit ELO hell, you are stuck with poptart scum like yourself. SCREW that. I'm purposely playing other builds to avoid the Victor/Highlander/3D mess. After switching to a VTR-DS to compensate for it, the play style is lame as it comes. Pop, fire, torso twist, land, move, pop, fire, torso twist, land and rinse and repeat again and again until you want to vomit. To have to play a certain build in a certain mech to be competitive is a PRIME example of a broken system.

100% of the mechs had engines! Does that mean... engines are an abused playstyle?

How many mechs carried arty strikes? Are arty strikes an abused playstyle?

One thing I noticed is a lot of the matches ended with only 1 kill on either side. Maybe, if teams in the tournaments used something better than crappy dragonslayer jump snipers they might actually have succeeded in killing more than 1 enemy mech on the other team.

If there's a complaint to be made here its that brawlers are under represented and not seen as viable at tournament level. Maybe its because no one wants to take a risk and try to rush in and brawl against meta or jump sniper builds. Whatever the reason, its unfair to say jump snipers are overpowered just because none of the teams in the tournament could find it within themselves to test brawler builds or try rushing.

On a 1 vs 1 basis, I have killed plenty of dragon slayer and victor jump sniper builds in assault/conquest/skirmish. Victor jump snipers are nothing special or worth writing home about. I killed a victor jump sniper a few days ago with a wolverine 7k. They aren't worth nerfing because they're already worthless as things stand.

Its baffling the amount of paranoia people have about jump snipers and poptarts in general.

KharnZor, on 08 June 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Totally clueless.
Before i put the meta aside to increase my enjoyment of the game it wasnt uncommon for me to do 800+ damage in my Highlander, rarely going below 600 damage with kill totals that varied from 0 to 9 (if i was lucky) and there are way better pilots out there now doing the same.
What your post shows is a lack of any real knowledge of whats going on with the game currently.
Now, back to the corner you go.

Plenty of people do 800+ damage and 5+ in a highlander without poptarting or having jump jets.

Are you trying to say that any mech that does 800+ damage is overpowered? What are you saying exactly?

"Poptarts are overpowered because they do more than 800 damage."

That makes no sense. Not that any of you ever came near to making sense.

YueFei, on 08 June 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

If the poptarts you've seen wreck their own legs, they aren't that good. Good jump snipers make the shortest possible jump to get a shot, like <10 meter high jumps. The initial lift from JJs is very fast, so you can clear cover quickly to fire. To jump unnecessarily high exposes you to return fire for much longer, because you'll rise slowly after the initial lift and hang in the air longer.

The proposed leg damage mechanic overhaul is actually going to screw over non-JJ mechs and non-poptarting JJ mechs trying to get big air or make huge leaps. With the proposed mechanic, you can fall 5 meters and damage your legs. To put that in perspective, a Centurion is 14 meters tall. Basically you can fall less than waist-high and damage your legs. Non-JJ mechs won't have any way to cushion their falls. And the JJ-using mechs who aren't poptarts will injure themselves if they try to make giant leaps.

Meanwhile the skilled jump sniper just keeps on keeping on. Paul aims his nerf gun and misses again. And, as usual, hits innocent bystanders.

There aren't a lot of places on a map where you can poptart with x < 10 meter jumps.

If you watched the tournament you might have noticed poptarts stood in the same places and didn't move much. This is because the number of places they can poptart without jumping high are low.

This means: if you're doing low jumps you have to stand in the same place. If you stand in the same place its easy for someone to aim where you're going to jump and shoot you.

If you're moving and poptarting you have to jump high sometimes, because the number of places you can jump low are limited and in short supply.

If a poptart is taking fall damage its not because they're new. Its because there are only a few places on the map where they can jump low to avoid damage, and maybe most of the experienced players already know where those places are.

The way I see it, most of the people who post on the forum don't play the game.

They're people who come on the forum to troll, complain or cause trouble.

Those are the people who are the loudest voice on this forum. This forum which a lot of people deliberately avoid because they don't want to be subject to the negativity.

What sucks about this is, this forum is also where PGI and developers seem to take most of their feedback.

In essence, most of the feedback from this game comes from people who don't play the game who just come on the forum to troll, complain or cause trouble.

That doesn't seem like a good way to do things...

[KharnZor]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

*1.Plenty of people do 800+ damage and 5+ in a highlander without poptarting or having jump jets.

*2.Are you trying to say that any mech that does 800+ damage is overpowered? What are you saying exactly?

"Poptarts are overpowered because they do more than 800 damage."

*3.That makes no sense. Not that any of you ever came near to making sense.

Way to go on the defensive.

1. No, they don't.
2. Clearly i wasn't saying that. Reading comprehension fail.
3. The only person not making sense here is you. I recommend playing the game yourself sometime as you clearly have limited knowledge and experiance.

[YueFei]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

There aren't a lot of places on a map where you can poptart with x < 10 meter jumps.

If you watched the tournament you might have noticed poptarts stood in the same places and didn't move much. This is because the number of places they can poptart without jumping high are low.

This means: if you're doing low jumps you have to stand in the same place. If you stand in the same place its easy for someone to aim where you're going to jump and shoot you.

If you're moving and poptarting you have to jump high sometimes, because the number of places you can jump low are limited and in short supply.

If a poptart is taking fall damage its not because they're new. Its because there are only a few places on the map where they can jump low to avoid damage, and maybe most of the experienced players already know where those places are.

The way I see it, most of the people who post on the forum don't play the game.

They're people who come on the forum to troll, complain or cause trouble.

Those are the people who are the loudest voice on this forum. This forum which a lot of people deliberately avoid because they don't want to be subject to the negativity.

What sucks about this is, this forum is also where PGI and developers seem to take most of their feedback.

In essence, most of the feedback from this game comes from people who don't play the game who just come on the forum to troll, complain or cause trouble.

That doesn't seem like a good way to do things...

Any berm is a place where you can do low jumps. Instead of jumping from way behind the berm, requiring you to make a very high and slow jump, you creep up to the edge of it first, and then use a quick burst of jump jets to clear it and fire.

Prior to hill-climbing restrictions, every mech could hill-hump and do it nimbly. Jump-shots from behind a berm are nothing more than the equivalent of a berm drill. It's just that with the hill-climbing restrictions, jump-shots are executed faster than berm drills can be done now. Lights and Mediums can hill-hump quickly, but they don't have the mass to carry dangerous PP FLD loadouts. Hell, on some slopes, even a 50-tonner handles like a pig.

Without JJs, you get stuck on all kinds of things on the map. And without JJs, there are all kinds of slopes that you can't climb effectively. You think the number of places that serve as viable positions for jump-shooting are limited? What about the non-JJ-capable mechs then? The number of places they can go, and the number of places from which they can fire from, are *even more limited*! It's comedy gold to watch 3 or 4 non-JJ mechs all trying to use the same corner to shoot from, because that berm in front of them is too steep to climb. They can't maximize firepower and they block each other's firing lines. Meanwhile, put 3 or 4 JJ-capable mechs in that same spot, and they can *all* clear their weapons to fire simultaneously by jumping from behind that berm, line abreast.

That isn't to say that I think jump-shooting is overpowered. I don't think it is. It's just that the hill-climbing restrictions are too much. Now they're adding fall damage... and doing it in a way that is sure to screw the non-JJ mechs even more. Fall 5 meters and damage your legs. You know a Centurion is 14 meters tall? Fall from a height barely taller than your knees and damage your legs. Without JJs you can't even cushion your fall. I already greatly "enjoy" getting stuck on rocks, pipes, and other random bits of geology in my Centurion, pretty soon I'll be able to enjoy falling from waist-high ledges and damaging my legs, too.

If it were up to me I'd greatly relax the hill-climbing restrictions, and drop this idea of increased leg damage from falls.

[Nikkoru]

Watching Zeratul troll this thread is really fun.

It's like watching some guy try to convince everyone that there is no problem as the Hindenburg burns in the background.

Edited by Nikkoru, 08 June 2014 - 05:29 PM.

[Toadkillerdog]

Nikkoru, on 08 June 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Watching Zeratul troll this thread is really fun.

It's like watching some guy try to convince everyone that there is no problem as the Hindenburg burns in the background.

yeah, he is really trying hard, but I always get the uncomfortable feeling that he isn't a troll and really is just that nuts. If he's just trolling, that's some high quality **** right there
don't suppose you know how to post images in this damn forum? I need that picture of the stalker as the hindenberg

Edited by Toadkillerdog, 08 June 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[Lil Cthulhu]

Whoa, hold up a second.
Splatcats and Streakcats are low risk high reward? They used to be high risk, high reward but anymore they're just high risk, mediocre at best reward, and by mediocre at best I mean you pretty much have to be up against a team of absolute window lickers for them to be even remotely effective.

[Flyby215]

Zeratul, I sort of get the feeling you do not see jump-sniping as a problem because you are not yet in the Elo bracket where it becomes a major problem.
















You'll see in one match I am paired with the jump-snipers, keeping my W/L ratio at least reasonable. In my Jester or Misery I can usually compete a little better, but by not bringing metamechs few are even able to compete.

These are from today alone and is a small sampling of my solo routine. When I hit the "Search" button, the matchmaker spends 4-6 minutes finding these one-sided matches. I have 20+ more that look just like this from this weekend that I plan on submitting to PGI as a support ticket because it is absurd to think that anyone at PGI would feel the game is "close to where we want it".

This, Zeratul, is what most of us here see as a problem.

Edited by Flyby215, 08 June 2014 - 06:07 PM.

[Toadkillerdog]

Honestly Flyby, I sincerely doubt any amount of evidence would make zeratul change his opinion after seeing this thread. What worries me, though, is that all of your images are in conquest. Typically my team and I have been playing that to get away from poptarts, as they heavily populate skirmish matches (and probably assault), since they don't have to maneuver at all in those

[zortesh]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

Is poptarting easier than locking on and firing LRM's?

Is it easier than holding down the button to fire AC's and aim?

How can you say poptarting is easier than either of the above with a straight face?

Obviously, there are a lot of things in this game easier and less challenging than poptarting.

The real question is, why poptarting should be nerfed.

Claiming poptarting is the "easiest" and "least challenging" thing in the game is ridiculous & makes no sense.

Yes, in most games it is easier then finding a good lock.

Yes it is easyier then aiming ac's and holding down fire, it takes positioning and moving stealthily to get in a good fire position, and you have to take risks to do that usally you have lowslung arms and need to expose yourself for more then a second to fire, it takes more skill to be successful in a mech that has to risk return fire.

The meta is simply better to any other mech in almost any situation, it has the most lethal kick and the least weapon systems to worry about.

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

There aren't a lot of places on a map where you can poptart with x < 10 meter jumps.

If you watched the tournament you might have noticed poptarts stood in the same places and didn't move much. This is because the number of places they can poptart without jumping high are low.

This means: if you're doing low jumps you have to stand in the same place. If you stand in the same place its easy for someone to aim where you're going to jump and shoot you.

If you're moving and poptarting you have to jump high sometimes, because the number of places you can jump low are limited and in short supply.

If a poptart is taking fall damage its not because they're new. Its because there are only a few places on the map where they can jump low to avoid damage, and maybe most of the experienced players already know where those places are.

The way I see it, most of the people who post on the forum don't play the game.

They're people who come on the forum to troll, complain or cause trouble.

Those are the people who are the loudest voice on this forum. This forum which a lot of people deliberately avoid because they don't want to be subject to the negativity.

What sucks about this is, this forum is also where PGI and developers seem to take most of their feedback.

In essence, most of the feedback from this game comes from people who don't play the game who just come on the forum to troll, complain or cause trouble.

That doesn't seem like a good way to do things...

There are very few palces on any map where you have to expose yourself with very high jumps to poptart...

Few palces where you can poptart while having to jump less then 10 meters? i know your trolling, a meta 3d only jumps 11.3 meters.... So... uhh.. where you get the idea that you have to jump high is beyond me... you barely have to get over the terrain, and barely have to expose yourself.

Heck i normally get two jumps in a short time, and I shift position constantly, and I'm not even a good jumpsniper.

Your either terrible at it yourself, or at a elo level where you've only seen really bad jumpsnipers, heck taking fall damage is extremely rare and insignificant.

Also, there was only a few matches in tourneys where it ended in 1-0, look at the later ones, there were brawler rushes, and then poptarts played offensively.

The finals was actully a good match, although it was poptart vs poptart, and iot was all about movement and positioning.

Edited by zortesh, 08 June 2014 - 07:37 PM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

How high does my KDR need to be to see these amazing jump snipers? :T

Its only 1.26 atm. Was leveling a lot, recently. How high does it need to be?

I always select conquest, assault and skirmish in every game. And drop all 4 clases from light to assault.

Seriously. I've never had a problem with jump snipers on here. I don't think I've ever seen a dragon slayer do more than 500 damage, ever. I've seen lots of dragon slayers and killed a lot of them. I finished one earlier today and still had 92% armor left.

In that sense, I really don't know what you're talking about if indeed jump snipers are a problem.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 08 June 2014 - 08:03 PM.