106 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

How high does my KDR need to be to see these amazing jump snipers? :T

Its only 1.26 atm. Was leveling a lot, recently. How high does it need to be?

KDR doesn't matter for Elo. Only W/L counts. But there's no need to get a higher elo by having a better W/L. Just go on Twitch TV and check out some of the guys who were in the Tournament semi-finals and finals.

I'm a mediocre player but every once in awhile I do get to play against these guys. Honestly it would be fun to play against them all the time, since it would provide more opportunities to learn and improve.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

YueFei, on 08 June 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

KDR doesn't matter for Elo. Only W/L counts. But there's no need to get a higher elo by having a better W/L. Just go on Twitch TV and check out some of the guys who were in the Tournament semi-finals and finals.

I'm a mediocre player but every once in awhile I do get to play against these guys. Honestly it would be fun to play against them all the time, since it would provide more opportunities to learn and improve.

W/L is 489 / 435.

I'll try to get raise both higher. Then maybe I'll have a better idea of what some of you are talking about.

.

[Darian DelFord]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

W/L is 489 / 435.

I'll try to get raise both higher. Then maybe I'll have a better idea of what some of you are talking about.

.

Please stop feeding the troll, he truly is clueless, the fact that he thought KDR affected ELO should be a hint.

[YueFei]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

W/L is 489 / 435.

I'll try to get raise both higher. Then maybe I'll have a better idea of what some of you are talking about.

.

Well, the main thing really is that JJ mechs can all shoot things together, and since it's a team game, that matters a lot. It's not that making a Mech into a jump-sniper loadout suddenly turns it into a fighting god all by itself.

Even in PUG games, take 2 different 4-man groups, 1 in each team. Let's say both 4-man groups have equally skilled pilots, and they're both on teamspeak and coordinating. Put 1 team in a bunch of non-JJ mechs. Put the other team in JJ-capable mechs. You'll see the team without JJs is having a hard time navigating the map, tripping over terrain, and then either clumsily trying to climb hills to shoot, or tripping over each other trying to peek from the same corner. Meanwhile the team with JJ's can concentrate fire because they can all clear obstacles and shoot together. They also have more options for navigating the map.

Ever played StarCraft? If you have 1 force that's all balled-up, and put it up against an equivalent force that's managed to form a firing line, the force that's lined-up (or formed in a concave) is going to win.

I do tend to think people focus too much on the jump SNIPER part of the description. It's really more that the ability to jump is so amazing. Or rather, it seems so amazing now that mechs have such a hard time climbing hills. It's not that jump-sniping is overpowered. It's more like they nerfed everybody else's ability to move around on the map. =/

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Darian DelFord, on 08 June 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

Please stop feeding the troll, he truly is clueless, the fact that he thought KDR affected ELO should be a hint.

Dawg. I drop in a lot of games where players on the opposing team have founders, phoenix and similar tags.

I always thought I was in a high ELO bracket. :/

How high is your W/L out of curiosity?

YueFei, on 08 June 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

Well, the main thing really is that JJ mechs can all shoot things together, and since it's a team game, that matters a lot. It's not that making a Mech into a jump-sniper loadout suddenly turns it into a fighting god all by itself.

Even in PUG games, take 2 different 4-man groups, 1 in each team. Let's say both 4-man groups have equally skilled pilots, and they're both on teamspeak and coordinating. Put 1 team in a bunch of non-JJ mechs. Put the other team in JJ-capable mechs. You'll see the team without JJs is having a hard time navigating the map, tripping over terrain, and then either clumsily trying to climb hills to shoot, or tripping over each other trying to peek from the same corner. Meanwhile the team with JJ's can concentrate fire because they can all clear obstacles and shoot together. They also have more options for navigating the map.

Ever played StarCraft? If you have 1 force that's all balled-up, and put it up against an equivalent force that's managed to form a firing line, the force that's lined-up (or formed in a concave) is going to win.

I do tend to think people focus too much on the jump SNIPER part of the description. It's really more that the ability to jump is so amazing. Or rather, it seems so amazing now that mechs have such a hard time climbing hills. It's not that jump-sniping is overpowered. It's more like they nerfed everybody else's ability to move around on the map. =/

If you say so. [:

I'm still not seeing how jump jets are supposed to be overpowered.

.

[YueFei]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

If you say so. [:

I'm still not seeing how jump jets are supposed to be overpowered..

I don't think jump jets are overpowered. I think jump jets are fine. They're tons of fun to use, and to see used with and against me.

I think the problem is that they nerfed non-JJ mech mobility too much. I wish they'd either get rid of it or relax it.

[Nikkoru]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

Dawg. I drop in a lot of games where players on the opposing team have founders, phoenix and similar tags.

I always thought I was in a high ELO bracket. :/

Did you just say Dawg? Like, not ironically? Oh, you are just too precious...

*laughs*

And you think that dropping with founders and phoenix means you are in a high bracket? Oh, I love you, you are the cutest troll ever.

*slow clap*

Bravo, my good troll.

Bravo!

Edited by Nikkoru, 08 June 2014 - 09:46 PM.

[zortesh]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

Dawg. I drop in a lot of games where players on the opposing team have founders, phoenix and similar tags.

I always thought I was in a high ELO bracket. :/

How high is your W/L out of curiosity?

Its based on win/loss by weight class, mine is as high as 2.0 on some mechs, considerably lower on others.

I'd say I scrape right at the bottom of the high elo bracket, sometimes I'm with medicore players other times with extremely good players.

Its very easy to tell when your in a high elo game... 8 out of ten mechs are either cataphract 3d's or dragon slayers, when you see dual guass jagermechs headshotting moving lights reliably at 600 meters your almost there.

[Kh0rn]

Its kinda strange I watched some of these so called High elo players like some of the house of lords use mechs that at non meta and fall apart they simply have no idea how too play the game with out there poptarts. Hawken is the game for flying mechs Mechwarrior are tank like bipedal war machines slogging it out....ON THE GROUND. JJ are suppose too be a mobility advantage and nothing more.

[Wrathful-Khan]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

On a 1 vs 1 basis, I have killed plenty of dragon slayer and victor jump sniper builds in assault/conquest/skirmish

As a brawler, I definitely agree with this statement - On a 1 vs 1 basis. The problem, as a brawler, is that quite often you are the only brawler in your whole team and 1 vs 12 isn't a bet i'd put money on.

Had some great matches recently on River City / Crimson, where a couple of us srm jockeys were able to dominate. However, this obviously had a lot to do with the amount of cover available. A solo brawler could never dominate on most maps vs a long range team.

I do have a jumpsniping Shawk I take out on occasion when i'm feeling jaded. It's much more effective and much less fun. But still more fun than being the useless guy with short range weapons in a war of PPC and LRM campers.

Edited by Indiandream, 09 June 2014 - 05:13 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Why JJ's are good.

Manovering, sure, but more of a brawler scenario. In order to get into brawling range you need cover, which JJ's help take away.
Map movement, sure, but with the current meta, there is a singular tatic that both sides emply, so no need to move around too much.

The biggest advantage is window of opportunity. The only way to avoid damge is to stay behind cover, so minimizing the time out of cover is how you win. Mechs with high mounted weapons out perform those with low mounted weapons (like the stalker or jag), as you are leaving your opponant less of a window to return fire. Mechs with JJ's out perform because they can do exactly what non-jj's mechs are doing, but better (minimizing time out of cover).

Are they OP? Maybe.
Does something need to change so JJ mechs don't clearly out perform, and are the most commonly used mechs with the most commonly used builds creating stale game play? For sure, even those enjoying meta poptarts will get bored.

[Klaus]

Oh my god this thread is embarrassing. How do people use this forum without getting a headache?

Look, if you're not jump sniping in most cases you hurting your team by being worthless. There are a few exceptions, but regardless if you're not jump sniping you're simply suboptimal compared to what you could be doing.

If you can't see that for yourself in game then you're either in low elo where all you see is really bad jump snipers or you're just plain dense.

[Xyroc]

I Zeratul I, on 07 June 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

Have you ever tried jump sniping?

Jump jets cause you to rise slowly. Especially if you have only one or two of them. Even with full jumpjets you're still not going to gain much height quickly.

Jump snipers are vulnerable until their jets carry them high enough for their torso & arms to clear whatever they're standing behind.

The first part of their mech to come into view is the head, then shoulders. Someone who is fast can shoot a jump sniper in the head or upper body before their jets raise them high enough to return fire.

A lot of jump snipers inflict more damage on themselves than enemies by jump sniping.

I'm not seeing a reason why its worth complaining over. :T

you are trying to argue jump sniping is hard? pfffft.

[Mawai]

People will ALWAYS use tactics to maximize the damage they inflict while minimizing the damage received.

This includes hiding behind terrain - buildings and hills as well as jump sniping.

As long as weapons will deliver all of their damage in one burst to one targeted area at one time ... then ANYTHING that allows a mech to expose themselves to return fire for the least amount of time to get that shot off will be the optimal approach to play.

Brawling (which everyone seems to like) is the last recourse since it is the LEAST effective at causing damage to your opponent while receiving the least amount of damage in return ... EXCEPT when you are working with team mates and outnumber the opponents locally ... in which case you can overwhelm and eliminate the opposition while minimizing the damage received.

Given this ...

IF jump sniping is too effective and disliked by a large enough fraction of players ...
HOW do you change it?

1) Weapons are made difficult or impossible to synchronize
2) Weapons are redesigned so that NONE of them deliver all their damage in one burst
3) Weapons are made less accurate while jumping

These address the two issues ... delivering all damage to one component at the same time.

From a "realistic" perspective the best approach would be to make weapon fire less accurate while jumping due to vibration. Each weapons moves slightly in its weapon mount, targeting isn't as precise and there is then some spread in the convergence/aim point of every weapon fired from a jumping mech. The amount of spread would need to be tuned ... but it would reduce the effectiveness of long range jump sniping while having limited effect on using jump jets at close range or while brawling.

[kapusta11]

Mawai, on 09 June 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

People will ALWAYS use tactics to maximize the damage they inflict while minimizing the damage received.

This includes hiding behind terrain - buildings and hills as well as jump sniping.

As long as weapons will deliver all of their damage in one burst to one targeted area at one time ... then ANYTHING that allows a mech to expose themselves to return fire for the least amount of time to get that shot off will be the optimal approach to play.

Brawling (which everyone seems to like) is the last recourse since it is the LEAST effective at causing damage to your opponent while receiving the least amount of damage in return ... EXCEPT when you are working with team mates and outnumber the opponents locally ... in which case you can overwhelm and eliminate the opposition while minimizing the damage received.

Given this ...

IF jump sniping is too effective and disliked by a large enough fraction of players ...
HOW do you change it?

1) Weapons are made difficult or impossible to synchronize
2) Weapons are redesigned so that NONE of them deliver all their damage in one burst
3) Weapons are made less accurate while jumping

These address the two issues ... delivering all damage to one component at the same time.

From a "realistic" perspective the best approach would be to make weapon fire less accurate while jumping due to vibration. Each weapons moves slightly in its weapon mount, targeting isn't as precise and there is then some spread in the convergence/aim point of every weapon fired from a jumping mech. The amount of spread would need to be tuned ... but it would reduce the effectiveness of long range jump sniping while having limited effect on using jump jets at close range or while brawling.

OR you can reduce JJ's thrust like you did with Highlander so that people can actually return fire to poptarts.

Low risk? - that is true, High reward? - just the same as in any other mech, if you ask me.

Edited by kapusta11, 09 June 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

StaggerCheck, on 08 June 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

Zeratul, you strike me as an unprofessional wanna-be jump sniper who is downplaying how outlandishly easy it is to jump snipe in an effort to abort further nerfs to your favoured tactic. Either that, or you are one horrible jump snipe player who cannot figure out how effective it is in practice.

I fixed that for you

Edited by Trauglodyte, 09 June 2014 - 07:24 AM.

[Flyby215]

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

How high does my KDR need to be to see these amazing jump snipers? :T

Its only 1.26 atm. Was leveling a lot, recently. How high does it need to be?

I always select conquest, assault and skirmish in every game. And drop all 4 clases from light to assault.

Seriously. I've never had a problem with jump snipers on here. I don't think I've ever seen a dragon slayer do more than 500 damage, ever. I've seen lots of dragon slayers and killed a lot of them. I finished one earlier today and still had 92% armor left.

In that sense, I really don't know what you're talking about if indeed jump snipers are a problem.

I Zeratul I, on 08 June 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

W/L is 489 / 435.

I'll try to get raise both higher. Then maybe I'll have a better idea of what some of you are talking about.

.

Okay, I think I have a better understanding now, and to be honest, we might be seeing right here why pop-tart balance changes are so slow in coming. You're still in a pleasant bracket, where some players are still learning the game, and most are enjoying the experimentation of varied builds. I suspect mechs are teeming with LRMs too.

I have a hair under 10,000 matches played, about 60 mechs owned (most fully mastered), and while my K/D W/L is not spectacular, the sheer volume of games and experience puts me in a tougher bracket.

When PGI looks at the statistics, they will probably see a balanced number of AC/PPC usage, kills, deaths, because maybe they are looking at the overall statistics of the game. Newer players probably prefer missiles and lasers for their ease of use, experienced players prefer ACs and PPCs. The overall numbers balance, and PGI feels they have a great game going.

They don't. Players who are merely looking to have fun, playing random builds, passionate mechs, with friends of varying skill, eventually encounter another set of players playfully known by the community as "try-hards".

"Try-hards" are players who are strictly here to win. With military-like discipline and precision try-hards play nothing but the absolute best possible mech, whatever the game mechanics allow to be abused, with the sole purpose of winning by the greatest margin possible each and every match.

The mech of choice? Pop-tart (Dragonslayer, Cataphract, sometimes Shadowhawk/Highlander). Anything else would be a detriment to their team (light pilots will take Jenner-F or Ember). There's a reason pop-tarts are the mech of choice, it allows large amounts of FLD, speed, armour, a sheild arm, the ability to jump, shoot, hide, rinse and repeat.

Players are forced to adapt (bring a poptart of their own) or die in a ball of fire. Personally, I prefer to burn playing my mechs (leveling Dragons right now) than to bring a "meta" mech. I am now a detriment to my team.

There are many players like myself, as we see this pop-tart argument quite frequently. On the other side of the argument, are players like yourself who have not yet encountered elo-hell and try-hards. Also defending poptarting are try-hards who want to protect their dominance over non-meta players.

There's a reason the final match of HoL and SJR in the 12v12 tournament was mostly pop-tart vs pop-tart. There's a reason pop-tarts appear far more frequently in high elo play. There's a reason it's complained about. I'll let someone else explain the details behind the pop-tart advantage, I'm just trying to impart on you what 10,000 matches has taught me.

[Alexandrix]

Reading this thread gave me a headache.

[Toadkillerdog]

Flyby215, on 09 June 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Okay, I think I have a better understanding now, and to be honest, we might be seeing right here why pop-tart balance changes are so slow in coming. You're still in a pleasant bracket, where some players are still learning the game, and most are enjoying the experimentation of varied builds. I suspect mechs are teeming with LRMs too.

I have a hair under 10,000 matches played, about 60 mechs owned (most fully mastered), and while my K/D W/L is not spectacular, the sheer volume of games and experience puts me in a tougher bracket.

When PGI looks at the statistics, they will probably see a balanced number of AC/PPC usage, kills, deaths, because maybe they are looking at the overall statistics of the game. Newer players probably prefer missiles and lasers for their ease of use, experienced players prefer ACs and PPCs. The overall numbers balance, and PGI feels they have a great game going.

They don't. Players who are merely looking to have fun, playing random builds, passionate mechs, with friends of varying skill, eventually encounter another set of players playfully known by the community as "try-hards".

"Try-hards" are players who are strictly here to win. With military-like discipline and precision try-hards play nothing but the absolute best possible mech, whatever the game mechanics allow to be abused, with the sole purpose of winning by the greatest margin possible each and every match.

The mech of choice? Pop-tart (Dragonslayer, Cataphract, sometimes Shadowhawk/Highlander). Anything else would be a detriment to their team (light pilots will take Jenner-F or Ember). There's a reason pop-tarts are the mech of choice, it allows large amounts of FLD, speed, armour, a sheild arm, the ability to jump, shoot, hide, rinse and repeat.

Players are forced to adapt (bring a poptart of their own) or die in a ball of fire. Personally, I prefer to burn playing my mechs (leveling Dragons right now) than to bring a "meta" mech. I am now a detriment to my team.

There are many players like myself, as we see this pop-tart argument quite frequently. On the other side of the argument, are players like yourself who have not yet encountered elo-hell and try-hards. Also defending poptarting are try-hards who want to protect their dominance over non-meta players.

There's a reason the final match of HoL and SJR in the 12v12 tournament was mostly pop-tart vs pop-tart. There's a reason pop-tarts appear far more frequently in high elo play. There's a reason it's complained about. I'll let someone else explain the details behind the pop-tart advantage, I'm just trying to impart on you what 10,000 matches has taught me.

It's not even so much the discipline or anything that makes poptarts a pain in the ass, you can have a skilled lance of anything else, it's that poptarts essentially sacrafice the entire game (both for themselves and their enemy) solely for the sake of winning. If the meta were something that required moving around and actually fighting, something like splatcats or ac40 jagers, a lot of us wouldn't mind so much, but teams of poptarts turn the game into a long drawn out trench war, and there is no viable way to counter them. They take what's supposed to be an active fighting game and turn it into a chore, simply a competition to see who can sit in one spot and hit the other more. It's like playing Starcraft with only siege tanks.

[Foxwalker]

Kh0rn, on 08 June 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

So pro , much wow , uberleet, such skill. Those guys who slog it out in the non meta mechs like Quickdraws , commandos , Trebs, Atlas -D and Awesomes those are the real skillful mechwarriors. Pulling high numbers and kills with those requires skill. And if you want too go a step further Stock mech matches. No meta no bullshit, Mech on mech.

I agree completely with this. This past weekend, running a Commando 1D, (No ECM) with a small laser, a medium laser and 2 streaks. I used no artillery or other consumables and had a string of games doing between 400-700 damage, sometimes with multiple kills. Not really bragging here (OK, a little bit ), I had enough games where I came around a corner and was insta-killed by dual gauss or dual AC20 in the first few minutes of a game. Just catching the outside of an Arty strike will kill you or take both your arms in a 25 ton mech. Win or loss, live or die those games were FUN.

The ponit is, there is a real sense of accomplishment after completing those matches I do not think I would have, if I did the same using configurations that exploited the game mechanics. I get it though, for some, wining is more important than anything else. I like to win too, just on my own terms.