458 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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While my Jenner does 30 damage to the same spot? With the exact same loadout? This is "balance"? I think we will have to agree that we do not agree on this issue.

How does your Jenner do 30 damage with the same loadout? First off, Jenners dont run 3 PPCs that im aware of. And secondly, Jenners cant use clan tech. Also if youre firing 3 PPCs simultaneously youre incurring ghost heat penalties, which automatically makes the CERPPCs better by comparison. Its 12 additional heat for firing 3 PPCs at once, which makes each of those PPCs nearly as hot as a CERPPC. So im not really sure what youre talking about.

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Except most of the time you're going to lose at least 2.5 points of damge on the Clan ERPPCs - arm or leg hits are automatic damage reduction of 2.5 points because there is only one adjacent section.

Right but they have no min range and a much higher max range. So youll gain damage from that as well. I would say 2 CERPPCs are equal to 3 ISPPCs for damage and slightly better overall because of the range advantage and no min range and the tonnage/crits advantage. I do not believe CERPPCs should have their heat lowered.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2014 - 11:01 PM.

[Jman5]

How are crit-hits going to work with the 10-2.5-2.5 damage split of the Clan PPC?

[Koniving]

Cavendish, on 07 June 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

While my Jenner does 30 damage to the same spot? With the exact same loadout? This is "balance"? I think we will have to agree that we do not agree on this issue.

Khobai, on 07 June 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

How does your Jenner do 30 damage with the same loadout? Jenners dont run 3 PPCs that im aware of. And Jenners cant use clan tech.

Somehow I suspect "6 medium lasers."
5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 = 30.

...but the same spot is only if both targets are perfectly still or going less than 30 kph. Otherwise the comparison of 6 ML to 2 Clan ER PPC is a joke. In the typical fast mech, 6 ML is really spread.

Even here, it's never perfect pinpoint compared to the PPCs.

[Khobai]

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Somehow I suspect "6 medium lasers."
5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 = 30.

But thats not the "same loadout" as x2 CERPPCs nor is it even in the same ballpark as PPCs because lasers arnt frontloaded damage dealers.

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How are crit-hits going to work with the 10-2.5-2.5 damage split of the Clan PPC?

I imagine the same exact way they work with LBXs. Each instance of damage will have a chance to generate a crit. So it would seem the CERPPC could propagate multiple crits in different locations.

Edited by Khobai, 07 June 2014 - 11:06 PM.

[DONTOR]

The triple gauss final hurrah! Join with me my brothers!

[Saber Avalon]

Gauss: makes sense and it's for IS too, so yay.

ERPPC: Interesting and good way to "balance" it. Still better than IS equivalent, same FLD plus some "splash" damage so more overall.

Clan AC: I was not expecting it to work like this. I thought they were going to be the same as IS ACs we have now. Even when PGI gets the ammo switching to work, it means they are going to have burst fire still. I thought UACs were getting the burst treatment, not LBX Slug rounds too. Honestly, that has me worried when compared to IS in the FLD department with all the other "balancing" going on. Don't get me wrong, I like the burst fire option more than the FLD of the IS, but with IS having it still.... clan has nothing to compete with.

LRMs: This is disappointing, an advantage we're supposed to have and it's being removed until they can figure it out, if they figure it out. Given our lack of FLD, I'd rather see no minimum range at full damage till PGI can sort it out.

Targeting computers are not functional yet, another "if they get it working". So even that bonus isn't of help.

Add to this we haven't been given clarification on if base armour can be increased or decreased or if it's at a set amount. We know we can move the points around, but not if we can add/subtract.

Then there are the quirks, the only other thing that I can think of that might even things out. We still don't know what those will be yet. Oh and I suppose beam weapons will be better, maybe. Depends on if they bump up the heat or not and how they do the added burn time.

I don't know about this, clans may be over "balanced" and without advantages we should have based on "technical difficulties".

[Vassago Rain]

Cimarb, on 07 June 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

I am still hoping these changes are just tests to see if they can balance different manufacturer variants of the weapons. THAT is what I want out of CW - real weapons variants that depend on what planets you hold.

You're setting yourself up for more disappointment.

[Monky]

Can we get the clan LBX setup for the IS? In that, IS can choose a 'burst fire' LBX cannon as well as the canister fire we already have? I would love to see IS LBX 10 be a 2 shot burst for 5 damage, at least as an option.

Edited by Monky, 07 June 2014 - 11:47 PM.

[Navid A1]

why are the placeholder ACs going to fire in burst instead of a single slug?

Paul said that the clan LRM min range will ramp up slowly up to 100m and then ramps up fast till 180m. Why can't they keep the ramp between 0 and 10m instead of this two stage damage slope?... the min range will be still in place but with no noticeable effect.

[Cavendish]

Khobai, on 07 June 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

How does your Jenner do 30 damage with the same loadout? First off, Jenners dont run 3 PPCs that im aware of. And secondly, Jenners cant use clan tech. Also if youre firing 3 PPCs simultaneously youre incurring ghost heat penalties, which automatically makes the CERPPCs better by comparison. Its 12 additional heat for firing 3 PPCs at once, which makes each of those PPCs nearly as hot as a CERPPC. So im not really sure what youre talking about.



Right but they have no min range and a much higher max range. So youll gain damage from that as well. I would say 2 CERPPCs are equal to 3 ISPPCs for damage and slightly better overall because of the range advantage and no min range and the tonnage/crits advantage. I do not believe CERPPCs should have their heat lowered.

Yes, missread your post and edited my reply.

Second, you can not seriously consider splash damage as equal to direct damage. 20+splash is not better then 20 damage due to how the game currently works. Lets look at the LPL, it does more damage for less heat then PPC, yet you so not see any builds used by top end teams use LPLs + AC. The name of the game is direct, pinpoint, damage not "overall total damage" because it that was the case, the LRM would be the king of the battlefield and the go-to choise.

Now I accept that we will not be seeing 15 damage Clan ERPPCs due to how it would break the game, but looking at how they will implement the Clan ERPPC (and lets not forget, you can not chose the lower heat PPC option as Clan) it will gimp some prime builds.

[MisterPlanetarian]

If you people can't see the advantage of 2 slot DHS and on average 20% crit and weight savings aswell as 10 slot XL engines then no wonder you need clan tech to be OP to stand a chance. This thread has been amusing so far

It's funny watching all the low ELO clowns calling clans DOA because of an ERPPC that won't be monstrously overpowered. 15 damage for 15 heat, and besides it's a test run for the IS changes. You can bet your life that IS autocannons and PPC's will be getting this treatment before fall.


Meanwhile: I'll enjoy my 15 damage 6 slot, 12 ton Gauss rifles and 1.5 ton SRM6's, 5 ton LRM20's, 7 damage medium lasers and 1km PPC's.

Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 08 June 2014 - 12:11 AM.

[ManDaisy]

So if the clan autocannon2 shoots 2 rounds at 1 damage each, will the clan autocannon 20 shoot 20 rounds at 1 damage each or 5 rounds at 4 damage each?

Edited by ManDaisy, 08 June 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[Cavendish]

Koniving, on 07 June 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

Somehow I suspect "6 medium lasers."
5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 = 30.

...but the same spot is only if both targets are perfectly still or going less than 30 kph. Otherwise the comparison of 6 ML to 2 Clan ER PPC is a joke. In the typical fast mech, 6 ML is really spread.

Even here, it's never perfect pinpoint compared to the PPCs.

No, I was thinking of his "2 CERPPC equals 3 IS ERPPC". If I was suicidal enough to field 3 IS PPCs on a 35 ton mech it would still be better damage due to those 30 points hitting the same spot, compared to 20+10 (irrelevant) splashed over 2 nearby locations. However I missread his post and have since edited my reply.

As per your own example video, spread damage is not even in the same ballpark as direct pinpoint.

[Cavendish]

MisterPlanetarian, on 08 June 2014 - 12:08 AM, said:

If you people can't see the advantage of 2 slot DHS and on average 20% crit and weight savings aswell as 10 slot XL engines then no wonder you need clan tech to be OP to stand a chance. This thread has been amusing so far

It's funny watching all the low ELO clowns calling clans DOA because of an ERPPC that won't be monstrously overpowered. 15 damage for 15 heat, and besides it's a test run for the IS changes. You can bet your life that IS autocannons and PPC's will be getting this treatment before fall.


Meanwhile: I'll enjoy my 15 damage 6 slot, 12 ton Gauss rifles and 1.5 ton SRM6's, 5 ton LRM20's, 7 damage medium lasers and 1km PPC's.

Please, get a Jenner, fit it with 2 ER PPCs put in a 200 XL engine and 4 extra heatsinks. Now you have a Adder Prime. Do a few drops in it and then come back and explain just how balanced that is compared to having JJs and 5 medium lasers going 150/kmh and running decently cool.

If you would have read what I posted I do NOT want buffed CERPPCs ( I do have a brain, the 15 damage 15 heat CERPPC would break the game, if not for the Clan lights then certainly for heavy+assults), I want them to consider adding hardpoints to the omnipods. The Adder prime has 2 energy hardpoints, you have no choise but to put in 2 heavy energy weapons.

Edit; I also have not said it would be DOA, I said I suspect it would be but cant tell since I have not, ya know, actually had a chance to try it out.

Edited by Cavendish, 08 June 2014 - 12:24 AM.

[MisterPlanetarian]

Ofcourse but clan techs main advantage in MWO lies in tonnage and slot efficiency, this translates linearly into more firepower the way battletech works. The stock adder will struggle a bit with heat but then again even with 2.0 DHS we'd be having those problems unless weapon cycle time was doubled across the board. You can also swap out your hardpoints which will send any IS lightmech running for the hills once they run headlong into 20+ SSRM tubes.

But then again I don't see people judging the Victor based on it's stock 330ish armor now do i? And clans can change their armor values aswell...

[Reno Blade]

Gauss: Very nice change. Only a slight change and a good outcome for Boats.
But it does not limit Gauss/PPC combos or anything else.
I guess we will have to see if there is anything to fear from 2Gauss 2PPC, or if this is OK.
For now I like this enough already

LBX /AC: Good, Very Good! I feared to have FLD slugs and everyone would ignore UACs and LBX because they use burst/spread compared to a single slug of the AC.
Now you (Paul) said this is curently not for IS tech?
Why? Is the IS advantage on FLD part of the balancing? I hope not.
Burstfire solves a lot of un-balanced gameplay!

ERPPC: Great! This is the best news (next to the Burstfire ACs) for this invasion!
We asked for it a lot of times and with different ideas.
Now this is again not for IS tech? Why not?

I would put IS PPCs to 6 +2+2, and IS ERPPC to 8 +1+1.
That way you would get more out of the hotter ERPPC and still give both a place in the food chain. Heck, it could even work with 1 less heat for both in this case!
This would leave the Clan ERPPC with 10 +2.5+2.5 with a 66% FLD, the IS PPC with 6 +2+2 with 60% FLD and the IS ERPPC with 8 +1+1 with 80% FLD (but worst heat/damage ratio).



Now a quick note for skill involved in this.
Placing multipe shells into one body part needs more skill than a single shot.
Placing ERPPC into one spot where it's side-splash does not get wasted needs more skill.
Building a mech that uses more than just PPCs needs more skill.
You can use the ERPPC to crit-seek open sections.
You will use lasers to core stuff that is already stripped instead of your PPC (because you would waste damge for a lot of heat)
This needs more skill than just building pure-PPC mechs.

Thanks for these changes!

Edited by Reno Blade, 08 June 2014 - 12:38 AM.

[Asumaru]

Mhaha nice balance clan wpn. thx pgi.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Question:

How does the PPC damage arc work with damage transfer from hitting destroyed components? For instance:

CLERPPC hits a Zombie Centurion with destroyed RT and LT in its RT hitbox. Would it then deal 5 damage to CT from damage transfer, and 2.5 damage from the arc, giving it the same 50% transfer as other weapons?

Say that CLERPPC happens to hit CT on that Zombie Centurion. Would the 2.5 damage arc to the left and right torsos and transfer back into the CT, resulting in 12.5 damage to CT?

[Redshift2k5]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 June 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

Question:

How does the PPC damage arc work with damage transfer from hitting destroyed components? For instance:

CLERPPC hits a Zombie Centurion with destroyed RT and LT in its RT hitbox. Would it then deal 5 damage to CT from damage transfer, and 2.5 damage from the arc, giving it the same 50% transfer as other weapons?

Say that CLERPPC happens to hit CT on that Zombie Centurion. Would the 2.5 damage arc to the left and right torsos and transfer back into the CT, resulting in 12.5 damage to CT?

good question!

Cavendish, on 08 June 2014 - 12:23 AM, said:

Please, get a Jenner, fit it with 2 ER PPCs put in a 200 XL engine and 4 extra heatsinks. Now you have a Adder Prime. Do a few drops in it and then come back and explain just how balanced that is compared to having JJs and 5 medium lasers going 150/kmh and running decently cool.

If you would have read what I posted I do NOT want buffed CERPPCs ( I do have a brain, the 15 damage 15 heat CERPPC would break the game, if not for the Clan lights then certainly for heavy+assults), I want them to consider adding hardpoints to the omnipods. The Adder prime has 2 energy hardpoints, you have no choise but to put in 2 heavy energy weapons.

Edit; I also have not said it would be DOA, I said I suspect it would be but cant tell since I have not, ya know, actually had a chance to try it out.

Swap the arms for ones you like better, then.

[Eddrick]

I knew they were going to nerf the Clan ERPPC to give it a "differant feel"! EAT THAT, who said, "the Clan ERPPC WILL be front loaded, pintpoint damage!"

Edited by Eddrick, 08 June 2014 - 01:30 AM.