684 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Lynx7725, on 09 June 2014 - 01:54 AM, said:

[/size] Dude. If I can aim for a component with my LRMs, I would. PGI nerfed my LRMs by not letting me aim at components.

Yep, if PGI had introduced MW4 skill based SSRM mechanic to missiles, I will be making people cry even harder.

[xMintaka]

Zerberus, on 09 June 2014 - 01:57 AM, said:

Any what you`re saying is that you can`t tell the difference between a spider pilot and an LRM boat pilot in an easily comprehensible statement becasue you are too preoccupied with belittling anyone that disagrees for being a no skill lrm n00b.

Because the SPIDER pilot is the one that posted, that you quoted, and therefore utterly failed at belittling, and it was very clear throughout the post.

Yup, I fail at reading comprehension.

My point stands though, it's just directed at his buddies rather than him.

Lynx7725, on 09 June 2014 - 01:54 AM, said:

[/size]
Dude. If I can aim for a component with my LRMs, I would. PGI nerfed my LRMs by not letting me aim at components.

I'm sure you would, much the same as I would on the rare occasions that I boat LRM's (or even bring just a few).

[Cavendish]

ShinVector, on 09 June 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

A lot of skilled LRM users should try using lasers only builds to compare 'skill level required'.

I agree, they would then learn that direct fire where you only have to put the crosshair on target and press a button is a helluva lot easier and requires no skill. Keeping a lock on the other hand, thats a mans job.....

(That was sarcasm btw).

Spamming LRMs at anything you can lock is simple and not very effective. It does not require much in the way of skill.

Using LRMs as an effective fire support where needed takes skill.

Shooting a mech standing still with an AC20 takes no skill.

Shooting a light mech running 152km/h at 810m range takes skill.

All these examples shows that it is very much up to the "target" to make themselves hard to hit, breaking line of sight/finding cover/use ECM bubbles to their advantage/not parade infront of poptarts... you get the idea.

[KharnZor]

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Zerberus]

KharnZor, on 09 June 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Couldn`t you have replied first and saved us all this time?

[Dracol]

Lightfoot, on 09 June 2014 - 01:29 AM, said:

LRMs should have a lower turn rate so Lights can evade them easier, but do more damage with line of sight to the target. They're not skilless because they can't compete with direct-fire weapons at all. If you succeed with LRMs you are a tactical wizard.

I'll give ya a hint how to avoid LRMs in a light.... don't run away, run towards them.

[wanderer]

You know what the best part about people whining about no-skill LRMs?

It's how you can tell the no-skill players. It's easy to hit people who never bothered to learn how missiles worked to begin with, or actual cover, or have this strange aversion to ECM.

The better the player I'm shooting, the harder it is to hit them, and it is a TON easier to dodge LRMs than it is mastering how to hit people who learn that.

[MechB Kotare]

Koniving, on 08 June 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

Skill-less? Yes.
Overpowered? No. They are drastically underpowered with a 0.55 to 1 ratio with source for a single use and a 1.3 to 1 ratio for 10 seconds.
Most weapons 1.5 to 1 ratio in 10 seconds.

They're effectively underpowered. But their spam and stacking so many of them cause problems.

Details

Spoiler

The average mech carries no more than 2 LRM-15s. 4 is considered a boat. This mech carried 6 LRM-15s.


Now, what was wrong? Was it really all that overpowered? 20 LRM-15s were fired to get 1 kill. That's 330 damage right now. Back then, it was 360 at the time. And it was pathetic.

And in this video, those 20 LRM-15s? That would have been 540 damage at 1.8 per missile as it was back then.

Best damage on the team. 385 damage. That's 1.8 damage per missile...but it gives you an idea of how many missiles would miss.

Right now missiles are 1.1 damage. Very low. And in all of these, do you see the huge dependance on LOTS of launchers and LOTS of missiles to have any discernible effect?

The problem ultimately rests on this. Spam.

Skip to 3:40. Hear how frequently the alarm goes off? I timed every alarm for when the AMS goes off right before the missiles hit. It was so frequent that I had to cut back on them because it was driving me nuts.



In this video, it's moments after we rushed and killed several LRM boats I was being hit so bad by LRMs that I couldn't read my hud. I literally gave up when I overheated, minimized the game, pulled out fraps, accepted to run it as admin, pulled the game back up, started recording, started my mech back up tried to fire the arm lasers but hit the wrong button, shut down.. I was going to count how long it took to die but my team went and attacked the LRM boats with me killing two while I was minimized.

At one point in time I sat and waited for LRM fire to kill me. It took 39 seconds for 3 LRM-15s to kill me in a Hunchback. Constant spam. Most of it was CT damage.

But as I was saying... the problem isn't that they are overpowered. They are pathetically underpowered in my opinion.

The issue is how frequently they fire. With enough launchers you can fire frequently enough to render an AMS useless; as in it will stop destroying ANY missiles what-so-ever because it can't keep up. It takes a fraction of a second to change from a destroyed missile to a living one. It always goes for a relatively close one. It needs 1/3rd of a second to destroy one missile. It takes 1/8th of a second to change targets. But every time you get hit, it has to take 1/8th of a second to switch targets. During that you have 1/4th of a second before the next missile it is going to shoot at hits you. So eternally the AMS becomes deadlocked into being ineffective.

Furthermore, with just 4 LRM-15s the number of missiles you lob in 10 seconds surpasses the number of bullets a machine gun fires in that same time frame. These are high explosive missiles being slammed into launchers and lobbed faster than MWO's MG can chamber rounds and fire them!

With this spam there is no time to react, no time to go for cover, no time to approach to kill to counter to fight... there just isn't any time.

So I've established two things. LRMs are underpowered. LRMs fire way too fast.
Lets fix both.
Double damage. Double the reload time. Double heat. Reduce LRM ammo to 120 per ton.
Instead of firing three times in 10 seconds, most launchers will fire twice.
For an LRM-20, this means 9.5 seconds before you can fire again. But for that, with some tactical positioning and careful consideration of when you fire, you could score a hit of 44 damage with just 1 launcher.
LRM-15? 8.5 seconds. 33 damage.
LRM-10? 7.5 seconds. 22 damage.
LRM-5? 6.5 seconds. 11 damage.

Just a thought.

This. I Keep saying all this time that ******' spamming is the real issue here. Boost the damage, boost the refire rate.

[wanderer]

Quote

A lot of skilled LRM users should try using lasers only builds to compare 'skill level required'.

Consider that at short range, most LRM boats have approximately the firepower of a Locust.

Darn skippy we learn how to use our lasers, you can't waste shots. Heck, I cut my teeth on my old Atlas-RS burning things with ERLL fire while lobbing missiles at the same time. You learned to use one to take advantage of the other. Considering most of us use TAG in direct-fire mode, keeping a beam on something (and where you want your missiles focused) is second nature.

[Livewyr]

Oh boy, another set of [insert derisive epithet here] who think LRMs are skill less.

Let me set the record straight.

LRMs require a different kind of skill than directfire weapons. Sure, you could point your LRMs at a red box on the other side of terrain and pull the trigger, and you might get a hit, admittedly more-so than you could with a direct-fire weapon trying to hit the target on the other side of terrain. That much is true.

Here's where the Skill-less idea falls through though: In order to hit a target with directfire, you line up your shot on said target, lead slightly as necessary, and pull the trigger. If your fine motor skills are good, you'll likely hit. Now lets try applying that same "skilled technique" to LRMs: You line up your shot on the targeted mech with your cross-hairs, and pull the trigger. (the same thus far) Now, the target, having received warning of your flight of missiles ducks behind a wall. Your flight hits the wall.

That is equivalent use of skill- point -> click -> profit or don't.

Here's what goes through the mind of a skilled LRM user:
LoS:
How fast is it? Is it likely to be worthwhile sending a salvo at something moving 150kph? (Probably not) How close is viable cover? How fast could he get to it? How long will I need to remain exposed for this salvo to land? Are their any [sic] ECM mechs nearby? No (move to next step) Yes is TAG use viable?
Is there anything that is going to block my salvo? (Ceiling of cave, tunnel, or landing pad)

Everything check out? Fire.

Non-LoS:
How fast is the target? (Is it likely to break the lock of whoever is targeting it.)
How reliable is the lock? (Is it someone who just hit R as they engaged something else? Is that lock going to break right after the salvo is released? Or is it a designated spotter?)
Is that target already behind cover?
Will the LRM gods answer my prayer that no ECM is nearby?
Is there any obstruction between myself and the target? (Jumpjets are wonderful for this.)

If everything checks out- click -> pray -> possibly profit.

-----------------------------------------------------
Direct fire weapons arguably require more fine motor skills in most cases. (When there is ECM around, the missile mech must have excellent Fine motor skills to keep the TAG trained on target, especially for faster mechs.)

LRMs require a different set of skills that direct-fire doesn't have to think about.. LRMs have to essentially predict the future based on weighing of odds. (Cover, ECM, etc...) There is much more situational awareness required in using an LRM mech. (Not the least of which is positioning yourself not to be flanked and eaten relatively defensively at point blank.)

------------------
With all of that said: There is such thing as a skill-less LRM mech. IMO, I bristle at the waste of a mech that is the LRM Stalker/Awesome/Atlas/Banshee, because those are wastes of assault mechs. More often than not, they cannot acquire their own locks, and have little way of actually using the situational awareness skills that define a skilled LRM user. Unless they're a part of a team designed to spot for them, they are the epitome of "spray and pray." (Not fast enough to maneuver and gauge the surroundings, and do not have jumpjets to achieve the same goal...they simply spray 60 LRMs and hope it hits.)

So, don't call LRM's skill-less, they're far from it. (Salute your local Catapult/Kintaro/Trebuchet LRM boats.)

Edited by Livewyr, 09 June 2014 - 04:51 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Here's a question for those saying LRMs take no skill.

Would you prefer they act exactly like PPCs or ACs or lasers?

You point your cross hairs on the target (even for a split second) then click and those missles would track to the target your cross hairs were over (even the section they were pointed at). No waiting for a lock, no maintaing a lock, they just track.
All other current rules would apply, like ECM.

Would they then take skill? Seriously asking if that's how you feel.

[Livewyr]

Bobzilla, on 09 June 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

Here's a question for those saying LRMs take no skill.

Would you prefer they act exactly like PPCs or ACs or lasers?

You point your cross hairs on the target (even for a split second) then click and those missles would track to the target your cross hairs were over (even the section they were pointed at). No waiting for a lock, no maintaing a lock, they just track.
All other current rules would apply, like ECM.

Would they then take skill? Seriously asking if that's how you feel.

I love that, except, lets skip the tracking and just set them at 1100-1500 m/s. Long Range LBX.

[Khobai]

Taking ECM to hard counter LRMs requires absolutely no skill. ECM is completely automatic and requires the player to do absolutely nothing and in return they get a super magic missile shield for themselves and everyone near them. ECM is still the most overpowered piece of equipment in the game.

While firing LRMs requires little skill in of itself, the fact remains LRM users still have to find a way to counter a hard counter (ECM) before their missiles can land. And that absolutely requires skill.

PPCs/ACs on the other hand dont have to contend with any counters at all: not even soft counters. So one could argue using PPCs/ACs is more easy mode than using LRMs.

Edited by Khobai, 09 June 2014 - 05:26 AM.

[MechB Kotare]

You see, there are 2 kinds of Lurmers. Those packing very classy builds featuring double Lurm 10/15/20 along with some lasers, acs or whatever. These builds are so balanced, that with very limited ammo for LRMs, they need to reconsider range, position of enemy mech and its surroundings before they actually launch LRMs with biggest chance of hitting.

= Skill.

Then, there are builds, packing quad lrm 10/15s, or 6x lrm5 (+artemis) packing shitload of ammo, which is basicly almost impossible to deplete, shooting every lock like a brainless tard, mostly in chain fire to add some trollish suppressing screen shake. Gets even batter on unballanced map such as caustic, along with nice narc beacon.

= no skill brainless spamming.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 09 June 2014 - 05:24 AM.

[Sephlock]

Livewyr, on 09 June 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

I love that, except, lets skip the tracking and just set them at 1100-1500 m/s. Long Range LBX.

Confirmed, they want LRMs to be useless.

[Khobai]

Quote

Confirmed, they want LRMs to be useless.

LRMs wouldnt be useless if ECM didnt grant AOE super stealth. There is no reason ECM should do that at all. Battletech has actual equipment that grants stealth: Null Signature System, Stealth Armor, etc... ECM is not one of those pieces of equipment.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Zerberus, on 09 June 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:

wall of text

The reading comprehension is weak in this one. Context determines definition. You clearly didn't read my two posts concerning LRMs. It would have saved you a wall of text in realizing we are in agreeance.

[CaptainDeez]

They should nerf cover. It requires no skill to stand next to something, and it blocks every weapon in the game! It's completely overpowered.

[Monkey Lover]

MechB Kotare, on 09 June 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

= no skill brainless spamming.

People hate it because it works just like jj+ac+ppc haha

[MechB Kotare]

No it doesnt. Pinpoint meta has nothing to do with supression and instascreen shake.